Honey badger long term extension incoming

[GuernseyCard]

Hes getting paid better than "average". With great $$$ comes great expectations. So when you don't reach those expectations, these are the consequences.

What "consequences" beyond your posts?

 

[BigRedRage]

Hes getting paid better than "average". With great $$$ comes great expectations. So when you don't reach those expectations, these are the consequences.

it was his first year as a full time corner, coming out of college at the safety position. Ill give him more time before passing judgement. Being the #2 next to pp21 is one of the hardest jobs in the league. If he flounders, he will be replaced. no big deal.

 

[jbeecham]

Bethel started 4 regular season games last year after being forced to play due to injuries. He had 2 interceptions... including 1 returned for a TD and was the most attacked CB in the league during that time. I think he held his own & didn't do any worse than Powers.

I would rather have him making 3-3.5 million per year, but 5 isn't too crazy if he can improve a little over last year & cut out some of the mistakes... the GB 1st hail mary sticks in everyone's mind.

Plus, he had a foot injury that he played through & is still recovering from. I'll cut him some slack unless he sucks this year.

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

 

[TJ]

Bethel got paid based on his projection of being a great #2 CB, not for being a special teamer.


Not saying Bethel isn't a good player, but as of 8/3/16 that contract is looking bad

So let's examine the contract:

3 Years, $15 mil $9 mil guaranteed. For easy math, let's say he makes $5 mil/year (BTW, worst case scenario, this contract is easy to get out of in 2017 or 2018).

Bethel is arguably one of the best special teams players in the NFL (3x Pro Bowl and 2x All-Pro). So what value alone do you give him just for that part of the game? Many special teams "aces" who aren't starters on offense or defense make ~ $1.5 mil/year in their second contracts. With Bethel being as great as he is, I'd say his value is closer to $2 mil/year alone as a special teams ace and captain.

Now that leaves $3 mil/year as a starting #2 CB, which is about the going rate +/- as a #2 CB. Put in perspective, Jarraud powers was making $3.5 mil/year as a #2 CB last season.

All together, if you only count Bethel as a CB, his contract is ranked #38 in total value; however, his value is so much more to the team because he's so good at his responsibility as a special teams player.

Does Bethel need to get better as a CB? Sure, especially since he's going to be targeted a ton w/ PP21 on the other side, but he has the size and athleticism to at least be a decent #2 option.

1-year CB Brandon Williams 4 days into camp is looking like he might overtake him in the not too distant future.

Early nominee for the 2016 "Stevie Williams Training Camp Champ" trophy.

He's raw and is still learning the position. He's made plays, but has also been torched several times. If you want to put all of your chips into a raw rookie who's had four total TC practices in his NFL career, by all means, go for it.

 

[Bodha]

I'd say his value is closer to $2 mil/year alone as a special teams ace and captain.

Now that leaves $3 mil/year as a starting #2 CB, which is about the going rate +/- as a #2 CB. Put in perspective, Jarraud powers was making $3.5 mil/year as a #2 CB last season.

That's not how it works. You cant cut up numbers. Hes not making 2 Mill as a special teamer and 3 mill as a CB.

Hes making 5 mill period. Too much for a special teamer and too much for an OK CB.


And in regards to Brandon Williams, Ill throw it back on your infallible Steve Keim. Brandon has been a CB for 1 year. And Keim saw fit to take him in the 3rd round. He didn't take Bethel till the 6th. So obviously Keim sees Brandons talents as being very very considerable.

And thus far Brandons shown a better raw ability for CB than Bethel. Bethel is currently better as a CB. But BW is flashing enough talent to suggest hes coming up very fast.

 

[BigRedRage]

We cannot take what people saw in training camp and suddenly assume that when the lights are on, everything they did in a practice will be true.

If the kid is better, he will start and I will be happy for him but it is a bit early to make those assumptions.

Buster Davis anyone?

Ryan Williams?

 

[Bodha]

We cannot take what people saw in training camp and suddenly assume that when the lights are on, everything they did in a practice will be true.

If the kid is better, he will start and I will be happy for him but it is a bit early to make those assumptions.

Buster Davis anyone?

Ryan Williams?

Why is it youre giving Bethel the benefit of the doubt and time to develop despite the fact hes had 4 years.

But Brandon Williams, 4 days into OTAs, is buster davis?

Like I said, Keim took this extremely raw kid in the 3rd for a reason.

 

[TJ]

That's not how it works. You cant cut up numbers. Hes not making 2 Mill as a special teamer and 3 mill as a CB.

He's making 5 mill period. Too much for a special teamer and too much for an OK CB.

So are we supposed to ignore the notion that he's arguably the best ST player in the NFL? Does he not deserve to be rewarded for that contribution alone?

If you tell my agent and I that I'm going to be a starting CB in the league and continue to play ST, I'm going to tell you that we want to be paid more than your typical #2 CB, and I guarantee that I could make just as much if not more on the open market. I most certainly can cut up numbers, especially in Bethel's case; because that's how value is assessed. You may not like it, but that's how it works.

And in regards to Brandon Williams, Ill throw it back on your infallible Steve Keim. Brandon has been a CB for 1 year. And Keim saw fit to take him in the 3rd round. He didn't take Bethel till the 6th. So obviously Keim sees Brandons talents as being very very considerable.

And thus far Brandons shown a better raw ability for CB than Bethel. Bethel is currently better as a CB. But BW is flashing enough talent to suggest hes coming up very fast.

Please find a quote that indicates that I said Keim is "infallible."

First--you need fact check. Graves was GM when Bethel was drafted, not Keim.

Second--Williams has four TC practices under his belt. How his that "enough" talent? He's having a good TC to date. Nothing more, nothing less.

How many times have we seen rookies excel in TC and completely flatline in the regular season? Hence, the 2016 "Stevie Williams Training Camp Champ" award nomination.

 

[Bodha]

So are we supposed to ignore the notion that he's arguably the best ST player in the NFL? Does he not deserve to be rewarded for that contribution alone?

If you tell my agent and I that you're going to be a starting CB in the league and continue to play ST, I'm going to tell you that we want to be paid more than your typical #2 CB, and I guarantee that he would've made just as much if not more in the open market. I most certainly can cut up numbers, especially in Bethel's case; because that's how value is assessed. You may not like it, but that's how it works.

Nope. Its total money. Duties dont matter. Doesn't matter if hes also the punter and backup DE as well. Watford plays LG, C, RG, and RT. Why isn't he making 10M?

Bethel, why not 3.5M?

That's darn good money for a pro bowl special teamer who splits time as a CB.

But no, its 5. Because that 5 represents the level of CB they expect to get back. If Bethel performed like a true 5 CB, then hed be taken off special teams. The priority here is as a CB, not special teamer.

 

[BigRedRage]

Why is it youre giving Bethel the benefit of the doubt and time to develop despite the fact hes had 4 years.

But Brandon Williams, 4 days into OTAs, is buster davis?

Like I said, Keim took this extremely raw kid in the 3rd for a reason.

Bethel hasn't been developing as a CB for 4 years

Bethel is a proven special athlete in the NFL.

Bethel has start 4 total games as a CB in his NFL career and they were not as terrible as they have been made out to be.

I am a Bethel fan.

 

[TJ]

Nope. Its total money. Duties dont matter. Doesn't matter if hes also the punter and backup DE as well. Watford plays LG, C, RG, and RT. Why isn't he making 10M?

Bethel, why not 3.5M?

That's darn good money for a pro bowl special teamer who splits time as a CB.

But no, its 5. Because that 5 represents the level of CB they expect to get back. If Bethel performed like a true 5 CB, then hed be taken off special teams. The priority here is as a CB, not special teamer.

Duties don't matter? You really don't understand how value is assessed in the NFL. You're telling me that for the average #2 CB rate, you want me to include my elite special teams play for free.

Why not $3.5 mil? Because the starting #2 CB last season made that much in 2015 and he did nothing of significance on special times unlike Bethel, and his play as a CB was so-so at best.

EDIT: Saw your Watford edit. Because Watford doesn't start and is still in a rookie contract. Please, study the league value trends more before engaging in arguments such as this.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Nope. Its total money. Duties dont matter. Doesn't matter if hes also the punter and backup DE as well. Watford plays LG, C, RG, and RT. Why isn't he making 10M?

Bethel, why not 3.5M?

That's darn good money for a pro bowl special teamer who splits time as a CB.

But no, its 5. Because that 5 represents the level of CB they expect to get back. If Bethel performed like a true 5 CB, then hed be taken off special teams. The priority here is as a CB, not special teamer.

Duties don't matter?? Seriously?? What an odd statement...

 

[bg7brd]

I didn't see a giant difference at CB2 between Powers and Bethel last year. With that said, I think Powers strength is in the slot.

 

[TJ]

Duties don't matter?? Seriously?? What an odd statement...

"Doody" matters, though.

 

[82CardsGrad]

"Doody" matters, though.

But not ALL Doodies matter!

 

[TJ]

But not ALL Doodies matter!

Meant to say that "doody is matter." Which it is, but very stinky matter. Like the 49ers. They're straight doody. Browns, too. Which is more accurate because doody is brown and so are the Browns. And the Browns have been doody for years.

OK, I've lost my marbles. Back to work.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Meant to say that "doody is matter." Which it is, but very stinky matter. Like the 49ers. They're straight doody. Browns, too. Which is more accurate because doody is brown and so are the Browns. And the Browns have been doody for years.

OK, I've lost my marbles. Back to work.

LMAO!

 

[Bodha]

Additional duties. I shouldn't have to clarify that.

Does PP get paid $15M because he can also punt return?

No. He gets paid because hes an elite CB.

Bethel hasn't been developing as a CB for 4 years

Bethel is a proven special athlete in the NFL.

Bethel has start 4 total games as a CB in his NFL career and they were not as terrible as they have been made out to be.

I am a Bethel fan.

Yes he has. You think he only does special teams work in practice? Just hangs out with the punters and kickers till they get their 10 minutes on the field?

I didn't say Bethel is terrible. Im saying hes currently not worth his $5m per year.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Additional duties. I shouldn't have to clarify that.

Does PP get paid $15M because he can also punt return?

No. He gets paid because hes an elite CB.



Yes he has. You think he only does special teams work in practice? Just hangs out with the punters and kickers till they get their 10 minutes on the field?

I didn't say Bethel is terrible. Im saying hes currently not worth his $5m per year.

PP is NOT an elite Punt Returner... He got paid because he is a Top 2 or 3 cornerback. You can't compare PP and Bethel. Bethel is a top, arguably the best special teams guy in the entire NFL, who also started at cornerback. There is no argument to be made to just toss aside Bethel's value as BOTH a premier special teamer AND a valuable corner...

 

[Shane]

Bodha is nuts IMO Bethel is worth every penny just for his STs alone.. the guy is a phenom!!!!

 

[Bodha]

PP is NOT an elite Punt Returner... He got paid because he is a Top 2 or 3 cornerback. You can't compare PP and Bethel. Bethel is a top, arguably the best special teams guy in the entire NFL, who also started at cornerback. There is no argument to be made to just toss aside Bethel's value as BOTH a premier special teamer AND a valuable corner...

PP: Elite CB, average ST.

B: Elite ST, average CB.


With the argument that "special teams matter as much as being a CB" that would mean PP is getting paid $15M to be a punt returner?

Nope. $15M to be a CB.

Bethel is getting paid $5M to be a CB. Because STs don't get $5M.

 

[TJ]

Bethel is getting paid $5M to be a CB. Because STs don't get $5M.

Good Lord, help this man.

No he's not paid $5mil to only be a CB. How many times to we have to explain to you that this is not the case?

 

[Bodha]

Good Lord, help this man.

No he's not paid $5mil to only be a CB. How many times to we have to explain to you that this is not the case?

How many times do you have to explain your incorrect understanding? At least twice more.


Let me put it this way: If Bethel starts playing on level with PP, elite. Top CB in the league. Does he keep playing STs?


exactly

 

[Ohcrap75]

So you are saying that the team would've offered the same contract to Bethel even if he had never played Special Teams?

 

[TJ]

How many times do you have to explain your incorrect understanding? At least twice more.


Let me put it this way: If Bethel starts playing on level with PP, elite. Top CB in the league. Does he keep playing STs?


exactly

Let me put it this way: you have no idea what you're talking about and I've been trying to educate you on how value works in the NFL despite your evident limited knowledge of the subject.

You can hold onto your idea that Bethel is an overpaid CB and he plays special teams for free, but just accept that there's more than enough information in this thread that contradicts that.