Honey badger long term extension incoming

[BigRedRage]

Additional duties. I shouldn't have to clarify that.

Does PP get paid $15M because he can also punt return?

No. He gets paid because hes an elite CB.



Yes he has. You think he only does special teams work in practice? Just hangs out with the punters and kickers till they get their 10 minutes on the field?

I didn't say Bethel is terrible. Im saying hes currently not worth his $5m per year.

He was a safety until last year.

 

[Bodha]

Let me put it this way: you have no idea what you're talking about and I've been trying to educate you on how value works in the NFL despite your evident limited knowledge of the subject.

You can hold onto your idea that Bethel is an overpaid CB and he plays special teams for free, but just accept that there's more than enough information in this thread that contradicts that.

You didn't answer my question (for good reason).

Because the answer to that question explains why youre mistaken in thinking that $5M is for ST play.

 

[TJ]

So you are saying that the team would've offered the same contract to Bethel even if he had never played Special Teams?

Ding ding ding

 

[TJ]

You didn't answer my question (for good reason).

Because the answer to that question explains why youre mistaken in thinking that $5M is for ST play.

Ugh. See, you need to listen more and post less.

No one is saying that he's a $5mil ST player, but rather, the value of his contract is because he's a starting CB, ST captain and ace.

Simple answer to your PP21 comment--he hasn't been an elite PR since 2011 so why should he get anymore value as a PR, especially now that he's being weened off PR duties?

 

[Bodha]

No one is saying that he's a $5mil ST player, but rather, the value of his contract is because he's a starting CB, ST captain and ace.

That money is meant for the expectation hes a very good CB. If he turns into one, then he'll never play another snap at ST and out the window goes the ST captain/Ace argument for why hes getting paid. PP isn't on STs because elite CBs are more valuable than elite STs and they don't want to expose them to inury. And Yes PP is an elite ST'r. Same with Tyrann now. No more STs BC hes too valuable as a CB.


Scenario:

Some other CB takes the #2 CB job. Bethels contract expires. Do you resign him to another $15M deal to be a primary ST'r and backup CB?

 

[Bodha]

So you are saying that the team would've offered the same contract to Bethel even if he had never played Special Teams?

IDK who youre talking to, but thats the point im making.

No way does Bethel get $5M as a CB only.

But also no way does a STr get $5M.



Some people are trying to make the argument that you can pay him 2.5 and 2.5 to do both. Which is fine. But the team isn't expecting a 2.5 CB. They want a 5 CB

 

[Ohcrap75]

I would offer him a contract that reflects the expectations of a great ST player and a back up CB. Probably 3 yrs 11M.

 

[Bodha]

I would offer him a contract that reflects the expectations of a great ST player and a back up CB. Probably 3 yrs 11M.

see, someone gets it

 

[Ohcrap75]

IDK who youre talking to, but thats the point im making.

No way does Bethel get $5M as a CB only.

But also no way does a STr get $5M.



Some people are trying to make the argument that you can pay him 2.5 and 2.5 to do both. Which is fine. But the team isn't expecting a 2.5 CB. They want a 5 CB

So if you are saying that they are expecting a 5M CB, then why do you say there is no way he gets 5M as a CB only?

 

[Bodha]

So if you are saying that they are expecting a 5M CB, then why do you say there is no way he gets 5M as a CB only?

Im saying Bethel today isn't worth 5M

Even at the time they gave him the 5M, he wasn't worth 5M. That was future money. "We know your only a 2M CB right now, but we hope you turn into a 5M CB eventually"

 

[BigRedRage]

That money is meant for the expectation hes a very good CB. If he turns into one, then he'll never play another snap at ST and out the window goes the ST captain/Ace argument for why hes getting paid. PP isn't on STs because elite CBs are more valuable than elite STs and they don't want to expose them to inury. And Yes PP is an elite ST'r. Same with Tyrann now. No more STs BC hes too valuable as a CB.


Scenario:

Some other CB takes the #2 CB job. Bethels contract expires. Do you resign him to another $15M deal to be a primary ST'r and backup CB?

IMO a big part of pp not being on special teams anymore is that he hasnt been good at all at it since his rookie year.

 

[Ohcrap75]

I just feel like the contract offered matches the overall value to the team they think he will bring over the course of the contract. Every contract offered to developing players is higher than their current value because of projected improvement. The amount of the offer was higher because they projected him to bring value as a CB on top of what he is currently bringing to ST. If they projected him to remain a back up CB, the offer would've been slightly lower.

 

[BigRedRage]

Bethel was paid on a projection, not based on his previous value. He was paid for being an ST dynamo and then also paid on his potential as CB. If he doesnt meet potential, something will change.

 

[Ohcrap75]

Bethel was paid on a projection, not based on his previous value. He was paid for being an ST dynamo and then also paid on his potential as CB. If he doesnt meet potential, something will change.

Thanks for putting my thoughts together in a lot less words!!

 

[Bodha]

IMO a big part of pp not being on special teams anymore is that he hasnt been good at all at it since his rookie year.

Keep in mind nor was he a great CB. Why? His diabetes had yet to be diagnosed. Surely his ST play was also affected.

Its fair to say if today, elite CB PP played STs again, hed be elite again.

 

[Ohcrap75]

Keep in mind nor was he a great CB. Why? His diabetes had yet to be diagnosed. Surely his ST play was also affected.

Its fair to say if today, elite CB PP played STs again, hed be elite again.

So why wasn't he elite on ST last year?

 

[Bodha]

So why wasn't he elite on ST last year?

BC its like riding a bike. Gotta get more reps in. Not to mention our STs has been garbage. Youre only as good as your blockers. 1 TD from DJ vs the Bears doesn't count for 15 other weeks of awful.


*not that hes ever going to be a STr again. Because STs don't get paid $15M, nor do they get $5M. That money is for starter CBs.

 

[Shane]

BC its like riding a bike. Gotta get more reps in. Not to mention our STs has been garbage. Youre only as good as your blockers. 1 TD from DJ vs the Bears doesn't count for 15 other weeks of awful.


*not that hes ever going to be a STr again. Because STs don't get paid $15M, nor do they get $5M. That money is for starter CBs.

Why wasn't he elite in his 2nd year with plenty of reps and no diabetic issue as of yet then???

 

[cardncubfan]

So let's examine the contract:

3 Years, $15 mil $9 mil guaranteed. For easy math, let's say he makes $5 mil/year (BTW, worst case scenario, this contract is easy to get out of in 2017 or 2018).

Bethel is arguably one of the best special teams players in the NFL (3x Pro Bowl and 2x All-Pro). So what value alone do you give him just for that part of the game? Many special teams "aces" who aren't starters on offense or defense make ~ $1.5 mil/year in their second contracts. With Bethel being as great as he is, I'd say his value is closer to $2 mil/year alone as a special teams ace and captain.

Now that leaves $3 mil/year as a starting #2 CB, which is about the going rate +/- as a #2 CB. Put in perspective, Jarraud powers was making $3.5 mil/year as a #2 CB last season.

All together, if you only count Bethel as a CB, his contract is ranked #38 in total value; however, his value is so much more to the team because he's so good at his responsibility as a special teams player.

Does Bethel need to get better as a CB? Sure, especially since he's going to be targeted a ton w/ PP21 on the other side, but he has the size and athleticism to at least be a decent #2 option.




Early nominee for the 2016 "Stevie Williams Training Camp Champ" trophy.

He's raw and is still learning the position. He's made plays, but has also been torched several times. If you want to put all of your chips into a raw rookie who's had four total TC practices in his NFL career, by all means, go for it.

I believe you ''hit it out of the park'' as some would say...

 

[GuernseyCard]

That's not how it works. You cant cut up numbers. Hes not making 2 Mill as a special teamer and 3 mill as a CB.

Hes making 5 mill period. Too much for a special teamer and too much for an OK CB.


And in regards to Brandon Williams, Ill throw it back on your infallible Steve Keim. Brandon has been a CB for 1 year. And Keim saw fit to take him in the 3rd round. He didn't take Bethel till the 6th. So obviously Keim sees Brandons talents as being very very considerable.

And thus far Brandons shown a better raw ability for CB than Bethel. Bethel is currently better as a CB. But BW is flashing enough talent to suggest hes coming up very fast.

Given that Bethel, a small school stud, was drafted by the previous regime, can't see where Keim's so called infallibility comes into play.

Carry on...

 

[Bodha]

Given that Bethel, a small school stud, was drafted by the previous regime, can't see where Keim's so called infallibility comes into play.

Carry on...

That was my mistake, but the statement stands in regards to the talent between Bethel and BW.

As for his infallibility, that's in reference to so many members on this board praising every move Keim makes w/o question, when there have been plenty of bad moves mixed in with the plenty of good moves.

example:

Letting Powers walk.

Their argument: "If Keim makes the decision to let him walk than it must be the correct decision".

Until we find ourselves in our current situation with 3 hurt starters and are now are forced to have pure rookies taking 1st team reps. Powers was a very serviceable starter who signed a reasonable contract with Balt. Shouldn't have let him go. 100% mistake.

 

[GuernseyCard]

That was my mistake, but the statement stands in regards to the talent between Bethel and BW.

As for his infallibility, that's in reference to so many members on this board praising every move Keim makes w/o question, when there have been plenty of bad moves mixed in with the plenty of good moves.

example:

Letting Powers walk.

Their argument: "If Keim makes the decision to let him walk than it must be the correct decision".

Until we find ourselves in our current situation with 3 hurt starters and are now are forced to have pure rookies taking 1st team reps. Powers was a very serviceable starter who signed a reasonable contract with Balt. Shouldn't have let him go. 100% mistake.

100% mistake.

How could you possibly know?

 

[Bodha]

100% mistake.

How could you possibly know?

It is right this very second.

You're trying to say it wont be when season rolls around...but how could you possibly know?


Between the two of us, Im currently correct, and you are projecting.

 

[GuernseyCard]

It is right this very second.

You're trying to say it wont be when season rolls around...but how could you possibly know?


Between the two of us, Im currently correct, and you are projecting.

This is positively 'goofy'.

Nothing matters at this point and everything is in play come September.

Your initial post was projecting the loss of Powers onto the upcoming season.

Try to keep track of your own thoughts.

 

[Bodha]

This is positively 'goofy'.

Nothing matters at this point and everything is in play come September.

Your initial post was projecting the loss of Powers onto the upcoming season.

Try to keep track of your own thoughts.

Hes squirmin!


Im correct in the current situation. And even in the projection, whos to say im wrong? Why is it Bethel is more likely to be healthy than injured? If we lose any 1 vet early then we will be leaning on a rookie. That's a fact jack.