How are the Lakers "the team to beat"?

D-Dogg

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Sorry I couldn't remember what 5 or so years ago,

And I can remember games from the 80s. Because they all were very important to me. Because I'm a fan of the franchise. Yesterday, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago...it's all part of what being a fan of the franchise is all about. It is telling that you rememeber a moment incorrectly because you were a fan of a guy on the team, not a fan of the team in general. FWIW, I enjoy the moments by the little guys as much or more than the stars...Horry, Fish, Coop, Rambis, Sasha...those guys had some great moments.

I am done arguing with you because you are what in your 30s? And I am not even 21 that says a whole lot about somebody.

Yes, it does say a lot....about you. And what is the insinuation you are making with the comment that you can't argue with someone because they are older than you? That's just flat out weird.
 

Trophytown

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Sorry I couldn't remember what 5 or so years ago, and I am not sad enough to go google it to prove a point. All I know is Shaq made a dunk to seal the win.

Kobe, especially in the last 2 games, shot every chance he got. Shaq wanted the ball and barely got it from Kobe and that is my main point.

I am done arguing with you because you are what in your 30s? And I am not even 21 that says a whole lot about somebody.

I am done with this thread until it gets back on topic.

So tell me, where will your fan allegiance rest when Shaq retires or is waived in a couple years ? Is that fan hitch of yours retrofitted for a new team or will you submit requests to O'Neals agent to become a lifelong penpal or fan club associate til you both fade into the sunset ?
 

DeAnna

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I don' tknow if they are the team to beat, but certainly one of the tougher ones in the WC. I wouldn't count the Spurs out yet.

I do give the Lakers credit for changing the dynamics of their team this year; they've gotten rid of the stiffs and gone to a more free-flowing style with more skilled/versatile/athletic players (to match up with the Suns?). I think they now have more Euros than the Suns do. Meanwhile, the Suns have gone bigger/slower.
 

chickenhead

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The Spurs are the team to beat. Their roster has won three rings in the last five years. They are the only Western team to win it in that span, during which time they've eliminated Nash's Suns twice. Though they lost to the Lakers once, they also eliminated them when Shaq was on the roster and they were three-time defending champions.

I don't know that they'll win this year, or that the eventual champion will have to go through them, but until they are not the champion, the title is theirs.
 

Covert Rain

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They Lakers are not the team to beat. Period. One thing we know is that the what you do in the regular season doesn't always translate into a title. What we know is that things like home court don't even matter. What you have "on paper" doesn't matter.

What matters is how you play in the playoffs. The Spurs keep proving over and over that they are the team to beat and have rings to back it up. Until a team in the West beats the San Antonio Spurs, they are the team to beat.
 

nowagimp

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The lakers have depth and balance. Frankly you could plug lebron or a healthy DWade into Kobe's spot and not much would change. Kobe Bryant is a great player, the best in the NBA, but not head and shoulders above those other two guys. Kobe is mortal, he pretty much disappeared in the 4th quarters of the suns playoff series last year due to fatigue. Give Lebron the Lakers complement and they would still be the best on paper, Dwade would also be a decent plug in. This is why I have chris paul as my MVP this year, he has led the hornets to the top with much less of a supporting cast. Chris paul makes every one else better moreso than any player in the league. I'd put KG second and kobe third for the MVP. Lebron hasnt led his team to the top, so he is down the list a bit.

Yeah, and sir stephan32 comparing bynum to Hakeem is a joke, not even close. Hakeem Olajuwon was the best defensive center since a young(pre ACL rip) Wilt Chamberlain, and his offensive game was also top 5 all time in centers. He took awhile to learn the game as he was a soccer player that didnt ball until he was in college, but once he learned the game, he was just incredible. Hakeem was much quicker as a raw player than Bynum will ever be. There has never been anyone like Hakeem, only the lack of star guards, his late development as a player, and MJ's bulls stopped his rockets from winning 5-6 titles.

Bynum has the best around skill set of young centers in this league. Defensively, he's no dwight howard, but on offense he is much better, much more skilled, perhaps thanks to kareem.
 

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The Spurs are the team to beat. Their roster has won three rings in the last five years. They are the only Western team to win it in that span, during which time they've eliminated Nash's Suns twice. Though they lost to the Lakers once, they also eliminated them when Shaq was on the roster and they were three-time defending champions.

I don't know that they'll win this year, or that the eventual champion will have to go through them, but until they are not the champion, the title is theirs.

I agree with this; the spurs are definitely the team to beat. Unlike just about every team in the league (especially now with all the trades) they are the only team that looks the same (and better) as it did when it last won a title..and since theirs was last year, they get the no-doubt nod.

They own the block right now and all of us other contenders are just unloading the moving van in hopes they get foreclosed on.
 

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For some reason, I will attempt a serious answer to this question.

Historically, championship teams have needed several things:

1. A player who is among the very best in the game, ideally the single best player in the world. Of the four title front-runners (in my opinion, the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics, and Suns), the Suns come up short here. Nash and Stoudemire are both great, but neither is in the same class as Bryant, Duncan, or Garnett -- and, to be honest, I think most serious basketball fans would have to concede that Bryant is in a class by himself. Nash used to be among the most elite, but he is starting to fade just a bit.

2. At least one key player with championship experience, or at least Finals experience. Here it's the Celtics who come up short. The Lakers have Bryant and Fisher, the Spurs have their whole team, and the Suns have O'Neal.

3. A coach who has demonstrated the ability to keep his players focused during the long, mentally challenging postseason run. This edge goes to the Lakers and Spurs.

4. A contingent of second-tier stars who will be able to step up to the challenge more often than not. The Celtics and Spurs have three stars each. The Suns have somewhere between two and four, depending on how O'Neal and Hill play, although to call either of them a "star" at this stage of their careers would be a stretch. The Lakers also have between two and four, but I'd have to rate Bynum and Odom above O'Neal and Hill.

5. A supporting cast of secondary players who are prepared to inflict major damage when the opposition eases up on them. The Celtics have nothing here, and the Spurs are down to probably just Finley. How the Lakers' supporting cast shakes out remains to be seen, but Fisher, at least, is someone who has to be taken seriously. The Suns have Bell, Barbosa, and Diaw, all of whom are huge question marks at this point.

6. Either a large market or the right kind of image to get the better of the officiating. The Lakers have always had this and always will. The Spurs have carefully cultivated a delicate balance of flopping and whining that gives them an edge with the officials. The Celtics and Suns are unproven here, but O'Neal should help the Suns.

7. Great team hunger and/or heart. This is the only category in which the Suns may have the edge. O'Neal and Nash both need a title, desperately, to cement their legacies. Bryant is as hungry as they come, but I have doubts about the Gasol/Odom/Bynum trio. The Spurs have never won back-to-back titles and don't exactly seem poised to break that pattern this year. As for the Celtics, it's not clear to me how much Pierce and Allen really want it -- but I suspect it's not that much.

So the Lakers are among the leaders in each category, except possibly the last one. That's pretty impressive. I sure wouldn't take them on an even-money bet right now, because there is too much that can happen between now and June. But if you had to pick one team to raise the trophy this summer, the Lakers would probably be it.

Sad, but true.


Thats a good response.
Although, Piston's championship year can be an exception and/or Heat's year also. As Both teams did not have the greatest talent.. but they did have the greatest hunger for that season. Riley's motivation on the team and the veteran presense was monumental to upsetting the Mavs, Mourning, Walker (YES Walker), Payton in my opinion were the difference. Mavs choked, but the above players + O'Neal, veteranship got them the championship...
Pistons was one of the best example of chemistry > talent. Although that Lakers team did have Malone injured, but still.



I want to justify that the Lakers in my opinion is on par with the Spurs at the moment. Due to them having the talent, chemistry (it seems Lakers has chemistry), coaches and depth.

The Suns simply in my opinion doesnt have the coach. D'Antoni is a likable personality and a good coach to an extent. But is shown over and over that elite coaches will outdo him every time.

I still find it frustrating and discouraging seeing the Suns not having a reliable "set" or "play" come crunch time. Nor a time out....

still relying on the Nash or (insert shooter here) hitting a miracle shot with a few seconds to go. If D'antoni paused for a second called a timeout.. and legitimately had plays and GOOD plays that is... for the last 2 minutes, the Suns should NOT be playing catchup and/or miracle shot chaser dutring the dying seconds.

Seeing, Nash (as good as he is) shoot the ball with defense on him, because D'Antoni didn't set a proper play in which the ball gets inside, then out to a spot shooter.. its frustrating as it seems the Spurs do it to the Suns year in and year out.... Spurs are on their own level during the last 2 minutes... they just have the correct plays... their seems to be always a shooter open on the corner or elbow... set up by Popovic...


When will D'Antoni "coach" to the level of the chamionship coaches in the league?.

Because quiet frankly, "Give the ball to Steve, He'll find ya" play is not going to win the team a ring.
 

nashman

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The Lakers need to win a playoff series before they should be considered anything. They look pretty good now but its early and alot can happen between now and the playoffs. The Spurs are the team to beat period.
 

nowagimp

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Thats a good response.
Although, Piston's championship year can be an exception and/or Heat's year also. As Both teams did not have the greatest talent.. quote]

The greatest player in the NBA is not an essential ingredient to a championship team, at least 1/2 the time it wasnt a part of the winning team.

1) bad boys didnt have anything close to the NBA's best player/talent.
2) Big Bens pistons, no shaq, no TD, no real superstar.
3) Russels celtics won a bunch of titles, Wilt was the best player over most of that period, and not by a little. Just check Wilts career averages against Russ, he ate him up.
4) Larry Birds Celtics beat Magics Lakers a few times, Magic was the best of his era, period.
5) The NY knicks beat the lakers in '71, they didnt have anyone as good as jerry west whos lakers lost.
6) the 1983 sixers defeated magics lakers(magic was the best player in that series, easily, and riley was easily a better coach than cunningham).

These formulas are overrated, team chemistry and hunger can make up for a deficiency in talent. Coaching is over rated in the NBA, its most impressive when a coach wins with obviously less talent, however. Chuck Daly won 2x with alot less talent than Riley or PJ, now thats impressive. Was KC Jones really that good a coach? Some coaches just step in poop, are lucky. PJ got to start with the MJ bulls with no less than 5 freshly acquired 1st round picksn +MJ, then went to a shaq/kobe team, are you kidding?
Everyone says DA gets outcoached, but seriously, the suns never had the kind of talent POP or PJ or Riley had for much or their careers. I dont think DA or any other suns coach has ever had an MJ/Pipp combo or Robinson/Duncan, or shaq/Kobe combo.
 

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The lakers have depth and balance. Frankly you could plug lebron or a healthy DWade into Kobe's spot and not much would change. Kobe Bryant is a great player, the best in the NBA, but not head and shoulders above those other two guys. Kobe is mortal, he pretty much disappeared in the 4th quarters of the suns playoff series last year due to fatigue. Give Lebron the Lakers complement and they would still be the best on paper, Dwade would also be a decent plug in. This is why I have chris paul as my MVP this year, he has led the hornets to the top with much less of a supporting cast. Chris paul makes every one else better moreso than any player in the league. I'd put KG second and kobe third for the MVP. Lebron hasnt led his team to the top, so he is down the list a bit.

Yeah, and sir stephan32 comparing bynum to Hakeem is a joke, not even close. Hakeem Olajuwon was the best defensive center since a young(pre ACL rip) Wilt Chamberlain, and his offensive game was also top 5 all time in centers. He took awhile to learn the game as he was a soccer player that didnt ball until he was in college, but once he learned the game, he was just incredible. Hakeem was much quicker as a raw player than Bynum will ever be. There has never been anyone like Hakeem, only the lack of star guards, his late development as a player, and MJ's bulls stopped his rockets from winning 5-6 titles.

Bynum has the best around skill set of young centers in this league. Defensively, he's no dwight howard, but on offense he is much better, much more skilled, perhaps thanks to kareem.

nowagimp,

Dude I got nothing but love for you, and a whole lot of respect for your b-ball knowledge, but D-Wade is not in any way close to Kobe or LeBron. He just isn't. There is no way on god's green earth that any team with Kobe or LeBron on them would be 9-43. I am sorry, I just can't see it.

As for the other part, I guess we differ on opinions on who should be MVP. Bryant would obviously get my vote, but of course I can not even pretend to act like I am not biased. However, if the Lakers win the Pacific, and have a top 2 seed in the West, and Kobe doesn't get the award it will be a traveshamemockery.

With all that said, Chris Paul is a BEAST. Right now he is the 3rd best player in the league (behind Kobe and LeBron). He is a stronger and maybe even quicker Isiah Thomas. Which is frightenening. I know that Isiah has completely tarnished his legacy with his horror show job of running the Knicks. However, those of us that rememeber him, know what kind of compliment that is. Isiah was the most incredible under 6'5" player ever. If Paul can play with his heart and determination, he will his share of championsips one day.
 

nowagimp

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nowagimp,

Dude I got nothing but love for you, and a whole lot of respect for your b-ball knowledge, but D-Wade is not in any way close to Kobe or LeBron. He just isn't. There is no way on god's green earth that any team with Kobe or LeBron on them would be 9-43. I am sorry, I just can't see it.

As for the other part, I guess we differ on opinions on who should be MVP. Bryant would obviously get my vote, but of course I can not even pretend to act like I am not biased. However, if the Lakers win the Pacific, and have a top 2 seed in the West, and Kobe doesn't get the award it will be a traveshamemockery.

With all that said, Chris Paul is a BEAST. Right now he is the 3rd best player in the league (behind Kobe and LeBron). He is a stronger and maybe even quicker Isiah Thomas. Which is frightenening. I know that Isiah has completely tarnished his legacy with his horror show job of running the Knicks. However, those of us that rememeber him, know what kind of compliment that is. Isiah was the most incredible under 6'5" player ever. If Paul can play with his heart and determination, he will his share of championsips one day.

I agree that Dwade is several notches below Kobe or Lebron, but if you plug him onto that lakers cast, I still think they are the favs in the west. I also agree that Kobe is better than lebron, not more athletic, just a better BBall player on many levels. But its the TEAM that the lakers have assembled that is the killer, add a super star guard and they are still the fav to come out of the west. If Bynum doesnt recover, they have a weakness on the front line that might be exploited.
 

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If Bynum doesnt recover, they have a weakness on the front line that might be exploited.


Very true. That is why I am starting to hate all of the bandwagon media jumping on the Lakers. If Bynum isn't healthy, I don't think we can be even close to considered the 'team to beat'. We need him, and his presence would give the Lakers an advantage over everyone.

That is why the Pau trade was such a great move. Having Kobe-Pau-Bynum gives the Lakers a multi-year window to win. Whereas the Suns, Spurs and Mavs moves are potentially better in the short-term (and in the Suns case a huge addition in the short term), however I think they shorten their window.

Age, and more importantly career 'mileage', is already a concern for the Spurs. It is obviuosly now a concern with Shaq, and is starting to be one with Nash (although he is in such good shape that he will be effective for awhile ala Stockton). J-Kidd is already on the downswing, and probably only has a year or so left at his current level.

Even if the Lakers don't win it this year, I really see them as the favorite for the 2009 championship, because this group will be amazing if they get a year together.
 

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I agree that Dwade is several notches below Kobe or Lebron, but if you plug him onto that lakers cast, I still think they are the favs in the west. I also agree that Kobe is better than lebron, not more athletic, just a better BBall player on many levels. But its the TEAM that the lakers have assembled that is the killer, add a super star guard and they are still the fav to come out of the west. If Bynum doesnt recover, they have a weakness on the front line that might be exploited.
Yeah, people on this board are vastly underrating the Laker bench. The Lakers 10th man (Luke Walton) is pretty much the same player as our beloved 7th man Doris. And Turiaf, Radmanovic, Vujacic, Ariza, and Farmar (who we could have drafted if not for selling picks) would all be getting really good minutes for the Suns right now and filling holes. I used to openly mock Mitch Kupchak on this board but I'm eating big-time crow right now on that one.
 

Covert Rain

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Yeah, people on this board are vastly underrating the Laker bench.

I know I am not but that still doesn't translate into title. Like I said you can throw away everything once the playoff starts. We have seen to many benches shorten and too many players disappear come playoff time.

It's simple, your considered the defending champion and the team to beat until some other team knocks you off.
 

elindholm

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The greatest player in the NBA is not an essential ingredient to a championship team, at least 1/2 the time it wasnt a part of the winning team.

In the superstar era, that's not even close to being true.

1) bad boys didnt have anything close to the NBA's best player/talent.
2) Big Bens pistons, no shaq, no TD, no real superstar.

Yep, that's three cases in the last 25 years.

4) Larry Birds Celtics beat Magics Lakers a few times, Magic was the best of his era, period.

The Celtics beat the Lakers twice, not "a few times," and the Bird/Johnson question can be debated. I personally agree with you, but it's not nearly so clear as you suggest with "period."

6) the 1983 sixers defeated magics lakers(magic was the best player in that series, easily, and riley was easily a better coach than cunningham).

The Sixers had overwhelming advantages in the other areas I listed.

Even if I give you every case on that list, that's only six in the last 28 years. Please explain how that works out to "at least 1/2 the time."
 

nowagimp

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In the superstar era, that's not even close to being true.



Yep, that's three cases in the last 25 years.



The Celtics beat the Lakers twice, not "a few times," and the Bird/Johnson question can be debated. I personally agree with you, but it's not nearly so clear as you suggest with "period."



The Sixers had overwhelming advantages in the other areas I listed.

Even if I give you every case on that list, that's only six in the last 28 years. Please explain how that works out to "at least 1/2 the time."

Note that I didnt limit it to the superstar era(see celtics with russel vs wilt, and the 70's in general, save kareems milwaukee championship). The sixers((I was there, lived there for 30 years, in phila) had inferior coaching, lesser talent than those lakers, but were hungrier and had some matchup advantages(moses over the older kareem and anyone else down low, andrew toney could take magic off the dribble, no laker could really guard him before he got that nasty foot injury that never healed right).

I hear you on the stern micromanaged superstar era, though. The early 80's was the beginning of the sternization of the NBA, the memorabilia or superstar era. I still do insist magic was better than Bird, and I really like Larry bird, but a serious defensive liability who was slow off the dribble. Larry Bird was probably the cagiest player I ever saw, and one of the most intense competitors.
 

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Reason #1- Kobe Bryant. He is easily the best player in the NBA right now. There is NOTHING that Bryant can't do.
What he cannot do is control the paint. While he is playing good defense right now, his position on the court is lessened when you cannot control the middle right in front of the hoop. Duncan has more titles, more ALL-NBA and ALL-NBA D teams, and also has the mvp trophies that Kobe NEVER got yet. It's Duncan's ability to control the painted area on BOTH sides of the ball, and if needed even closer to the rim, that has made HIM, not Kobe the player that affects a game most...even if he doesn't get the notoriety.

Reason #2- Phil Jackson. One of the best coaches to ever coach in the NBA.
I will say he is a good coach. He hasn't won anything UNLESS he has had 2 out of 5 of the best position players on the court at the same time. In Chicago he had MJ(the best 2) and Pippen(the best 3) plus strong interior presence in Ho Grant and DRodman. In LA, he has Kobe(the best 2) and had Shaq(the best 5) and then some aging balance. But still, when left with only 1 superstar, he has yet to win anything. All of Pop's titles are centered around his lone superstar, Duncan, and even in 99 with the 1st title, DRob's numbers weren't even close to what he was getting when he was MVP and 1st team ALL-NBA.

Reason #3- Frontcourt of Bynum, Gasol, and Odom. That frontcourt is simply amazing. Bynum is still young, but he is one of the most talented centers since Hakeem, Gasol is one of the best PFs in the league. Odom is a match-up nightmare, one of the most versaile players in the game.
Let's not anoint Bynum the next Hakeem moniker until he at least earns it. Gasol is so talented that he made it to the playoffs only 1 time and didn't win a single game. He's been perceived as soft in the past but is making strides into leaving that behind. Lamar remains an enigma, when things are going well, he looks like the next Magic-Lite but when things start going awry, well... Laker fans call him ODUMB for a reason.

Reason #4- rest of the team- Fisher, Radmanovic, Vujacic, Turriaf and Walton are all solid players. Not great, but very solid.
Not one of those guys can stop Parker on D without fouling him and Vujacic didn't get his contract extended although the Lakers have right to match should a team want to sign him. Turiaf is a pleasant surprise but still is overly foul-prone and Walton at times, looks like a square peg in a round hole, in terms of fit with the Lakers.

I hate them as much as the next guy, but they are an amazing team.
I think they are a solid team but they still have many questions. When AB comes back, can him and Pau learn to play together so as to not crowd the paint unless needed?
See, that's the simplicity of what the Spurs did with their pickups. They brought in players who already know the value of space and position D. It's like Chess and what the Spurs did was make the move to control the center. Cohesion will be much easier for them then any other team that made a MAJOR trade.
 

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Dont worry, the majority of Lakers fans are too. ;)

This is what Jerry West wants us to do.

Regardless though, Mitch utterly deserved the criticism he got. People just seem to forget at the terrible job he did at replenishing the 3-peat bench Jerry West built.

What I like most about Mitch is that he is LEARNING from his past mistakes. He made some amazing recoveries. He turned a terrible Cook signing into Ariza, a blundered Mckie signing + Caron/Kwame trade into Pau Gasol (although this trade reeks of Jerry West facilitation) and Fisher was extremely solid. Farmar/Turiaf/Critt - solid picks. People give Mitch credit for Bynum when in reality Mitch (carolina guy) wanted Sean May. Bynum was Jimmy Buss' pick hook line and sinker.
 
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elindholm

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Note that I didnt limit it to the superstar era(see celtics with russel vs wilt, and the 70's in general, save kareems milwaukee championship).

I should have been more specific in my original post. The league has changed.

The sixers((I was there, lived there for 30 years, in phila) had inferior coaching, lesser talent than those lakers

If you say so. But I remember that season pretty well too. The Sixers put up an amazing regular-season record and were often described as one of the most talented NBA squads ever assembled. When Malone made his famous "Fo, fo, fo" claim, the general consensus was that a perfect postseason was a lot to ask for, but far from unreasonable in light of the circumstances. Given that the Sixers dropped only one game in the playoffs and swept the Lakers in the finals, I think it's hard to accept the claim that the Lakers were in any way a better team.

Besides, I conceded that entry, and it was still only six of 25. These days, you usually need a megastar to win a title.

Larry Bird was probably the cagiest player I ever saw, and one of the most intense competitors.

And an amazing shot-maker, which to me is a little different from "shooter."
 

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