How are the Lakers "the team to beat"?

[arwillan]

You want my honest opinion?I think Lakers might have better overall players but Detroit and San Antonio are both easily "better teams" than Lakers.

no, we don't want your honest opinion.

 

[passenger]

no, we don't want your honest opinion.

I don't care what you want or what you don't want dude.

 

[D-Dogg]

Sad truth, but I'll offer my congratulations. You guys caught a lot of crap (sorry, but you deserved some if with your Kwame is a good defender nonsense) on this board for these last few years and never blinked or took your ball and went home. You took your medicine and even now when you could rub the reality of the situation in our face you're not overtly gloating. Congrats, what goes around comes around I guess.

I still stand by him being a good post defender...it was the ONLY thing he did. This season he was really terrible though and didn't even defend...I think he saw the writing on the wall. Kwame was a good dude, but damn was he a liability on the court. Thankfully, sweating the miscues of that guy is a thing of the pass. I can't believe we turned him into Gasol. Ridiculous. I have much crow to eat on Bynum and Mitch and others...how the hell could I gloat?

 

[arwillan]

I still stand by him being a good post defender...it was the ONLY thing he did. This season he was really terrible though and didn't even defend...I think he saw the writing on the wall. Kwame was a good dude, but damn was he a liability on the court. Thankfully, sweating the miscues of that guy is a thing of the pass. I can't believe we turned him into Gasol. Ridiculous. I have much crow to eat on Bynum and Mitch and others...how the hell could I gloat?

kwame was a decent defender in years past, i would agree. he wasn't a top-tier center or anything like that, but he wasn't totally worthless.

 

[Lorenzo]

You want my honest opinion?I think Lakers might have better overall players but Detroit and San Antonio are both easily "better teams" than Lakers.

well SA and detroit are proven champions and detroit with many of it's star players in tact did defeat an even better lakers team in the finals. However, it's still hard to say who the best teams are at this point in the season........or maybe more correctly put.....who will win it all or make it to the finals. again I go back to previous years where teams were crowned in the regular season and fell in the first or second round of the playoffs.

 

[arwillan]

I don't care what you want or what you don't want dude.

that sure wasn't childish or anything.

you asked and i answered. if you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. plain and simple. You have contributed a grand total of 0 valid thoughts to this board so far. everything you say is anti-lakers and pro-suns. that's not what being a fan is about. the lakers are better than the suns. The lakers are probably the favorites to win the 1st seed in the west and the suns aren't even contenders in their present state. so before you go and post something like that again, take a step back and look at this team.

 

[passenger]

that sure wasn't childish or anything.

you asked and i answered. if you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. plain and simple. You have contributed a grand total of 0 valid thoughts to this board so far. everything you say is anti-lakers and pro-suns. that's not what being a fan is about. the lakers are better than the suns. The lakers are probably the favorites to win the 1st seed in the west and the suns aren't even contenders in their present state. so before you go and post something like that again, take a step back and look at this team.

You said "we don't want your opinion" as if you have right to talk for everyone here.Some people here agreed with you,maybe most,and couple think they agreed with my opinion.
I don't know why you assumed I said we're beterall team than Lakers,I did not.I just said we have better guards in my opinion.Of course we have dozens of issues,and yes Pistons-Spurs both better than Lakers.You can see my other threads criticizing Suns' team and management as well.And my problem wasn't even with Lakers,I think media has been eager to see a good Lakers team,now that there is one,they're exeggerating maybe because Lakers have more fans and gets more ratings.

 

[arwillan]

You said "we don't want your opinion" as if you have right to talk for everyone here.Some people here agreed with you,maybe most,and couple think they agreed with my opinion.
I don't know why you assumed I said we're beterall team than Lakers,I did not.I just said we have better guards in my opinion.Of course we have dozens of issues,and yes Pistons-Spurs both better than Lakers.You can see my other threads criticizing Suns' team and management as well.And my problem wasn't even with Lakers,I think media has been eager to see a good Lakers team,now that there is one,they're exeggerating maybe because Lakers have more fans and gets more ratings.

to say that the lakers lack guards was not only a homerish statement, but completely hypocritical on top of it. They have 4 solid guards, including the best in the world. we have 3 guards, none of which have been consistent. how do we win that matchup?

 

[passenger]

to say that the lakers lack guards was not only a homerish statement, but completely hypocritical on top of it. They have 4 solid guards, including the best in the world. we have 3 guards, none of which have been consistent. how do we win that matchup?

Well,no,believe me if someone gives an opinion,I read,and if it's logical,I get convinced.

But Nash is not consistent?Barbosa won 6th men.

 

[Lorenzo]

the lakers have a great 2 the suns have a great 1. these two teams duked it out a couple of nights ago. I don't think the lakers are lightyears ahead of phoenix. phoenix has to find an identity. they lost a lot by trading marion away. if they can come together and improve....especially at the defensive end....they will contend. the biggest issue is defending dribble penetration when you have so many BIGs like that.....that can't move in the perimeter well. it puts a lot more pressure on your guards to defend well.

 

[Ode to Ocho]

You are more wrong than you know, but I'll just let you figure that out when Bynum returns. You are unswayable at this point.

Actually I'm not wrong. I would be swayable if you could post a logical retort to the undistputable fact that Odom is a terrible jump shooter and not a very good defender at the 3 position. I'm all ears.

Because if it doesn't work out, we are screwed.

Actually, thats not the case at all. You start Odom at the 3 to save his precious ego, but you balance the rotation so Odom is playing with the second unit more than the 1st unit.

Ronny playing the 5 with Odom at the 4 is the best second unit front line in the entire league. So when Pau, Kobe and/or bynum are on the bench, that is when you have leave Odom out there playing in the "modified uptempto Farmar offense," which fits Odom's game perfectly.

If you watched the Portland game, you saw how effective Kobe was playing the 3 and the Lakers have had much success during this streak with Sasha at the 2, Kobe the 3, Odom at the 4 and Pau/Ronny at the 5. When Bynum gets healthy Phil can potentially throw a lineup out there with Fisher/Sasha/Kobe/Pau/Bynum which makes it virtually impossible to double team KGB. Who do you sag off of? Are you going to leave Sasha and Fisher wide open on the three point line? Are you going to let Pau Iso on the wing/highpost? Are you not to going to send help defenders at the unstoppable Kobe/Pau or Bynum pick and roll?

The inevitable fact is that Odom makes too much for a 4th option. The reality is that he will be shopped HARD over the Summer and early next season (you can dispute this fact all you want, Buss' finacial history will shoot down whatever argument you can bring. He did not want to pay Caron 9 million a season and he did not want to pay Eddie Jones that much with Kobe here). Especially with what Ariza brings (elite defense), he could potentially be the future starting shooting forward on this team considering how young he is (22). There is no reason he can't develop a more consistent jumper. His mechanics and stroke are solid, it's only a matter of repetition. Even better if the Lakers can lock Ariza up LONG TERM at cheap before he breaks out.

Of course, this can all be solved by Odom sucking up his ego and agreeing to come off the bench. Phil Jackson hinted in a recent interview on NBA.com (check the two recent up there, practice report) that every real great team has starters willing to come off the bench. Ginobili had no problem coming off the bench in San Antonio and they had much success. If Odom is as unselfish as we all portray him as, he should have no problem coming off the bench if he cares about winning.

edit: http://www.nba.com/lakers/multimedia/0708video.html

There is the link to the vid where Phil makes the "starters coming off the bench" comment. Check the most recent ones.

 

[D-Dogg]

Actually, thats not the case at all. You start Odom at the 3 to save his precious ego, but you balance the rotation so Odom is playing with the second unit more than the 1st unit.

I don't actually mind that, overall, but if you are going to go that route I'd rather see Sasha get the start with Kobe slid to the three. One of the better lineups now is Farmar/Sasha/Kobe/Lamar/Pau...switch Pau for Bynum and put Pau at the 4 and that's a strong lineup.

Lamar will get his boards wherever though...I'd rather see Bynum and Lamar out there together to rebound and kickstart the break, and Lamar works very well on the break.

You and I disagree in that Lamar won't be able to play the 3. His jumper isn't bad, but it isn't good. Pretty mediocre. What he DOES bring is the ability to drive at any time. No 3 can guard him, just as he has issues guarding threes...however, when he has help from two 7 footers he can play more open defense with backside help, while on offense he would annihilate any 3 trying to man him up. You can't double him, and it is mismatch city.

We'll just have to wait and see how Phil and Tex use him...and out of the gate I expect to have him a BIG impact with a big frontline, but will be moved around for more athletic teams like the NOOCH or Portland.

Ariza being back is crucial, IMO. Or even just Vlad. But we can't allow Luke to keep starting...he is a complete liability out there.

The inevitable fact is that Odom makes too much for a 4th option. The reality is that he will be shopped HARD over the Summer and early next season (you can dispute this fact all you want Buss' finacial history will shoot down whatever argument you can bring. He did not want to pay Caron 9 million a season and he did not want to pay Eddie Jones that much with Kobe here).

This can't be argued. He makes far too much money. He is easily replaced.

Especially with what Ariza brings (elite defense), he could potentially be the future starting shooting forward on this team considering how young he is (22). There is no reason he can't develop a more consistent jumpers. His mechanics and stroke are solid, it's only a matter of repetition. Even better if the Lakers can lock Ariza up LONG TERM at cheap before he breaks out.

I think Ariza is key...either as a future starter or 6th man. He's still very young and fits the triangle needs of the slashing offensive player and good defender. Sasha already fits the Kerr role, but with in your jock pesky defense. Our weakest link is defense, so Ariza is a great option to have. He would have helped in the Portland game, if only to get Luke off the floor.

Of course, this can all be solved by Odom sucking up his ego and agreeing to come off the bench. Phil Jackson hinted in a recent interview on NBA.com (check the two most recent) that every real good teams have starters coming off the bench. Ginobili had no problem coming off the bench in San Antonio and they had much success. If Odom is as unselfish as we all portray him as, he should have no problem coming off the bench is he cares about winning.

He's weird enough to do it. However, the dreams of him taking less money are pipe, IMO. We'll move him next year and add a defensive SF or a scoring/slashing SF.

Until then though, we are going to see plenty of Lamar at the 3 on the floor with Bynum and Gasol, especially against teams like the Suns and the Spurs. And I'm really interested to see how it works out. Unlike you, I have high hopes for Lamar at the 3 with absolutely NO weight on his shoulders...that isn't what we are paying him for, but I think it is how he will excel.

 

[mojorizen7]

This thread reminds me of the movie The Ten Commandments....and twice as drawn out.

You must be registered for see images

"Thou art not a SUNS fan!"
"Lest you banter me with facts."
"He who bears the ring....may only be free to speak of such things."(ok Tolkien)
"He who hath trolled must be banished hither unto the Laker folds!"
"With this staff i bear unto thee....the prophesy of distant playoff victories....hindered not, by the fact that it's only FEBRUARY!"

 

[Ode to Ocho]

I don't actually mind that, overall, but if you are going to go that route I'd rather see Sasha get the start with Kobe slid to the three. One of the better lineups now is Farmar/Sasha/Kobe/Lamar/Pau...switch Pau for Bynum and put Pau at the 4 and that's a strong lineup.

Thats a weak defensive and rebounding lineup as we have seen these past few games.. Won't cut it come playoff time, especially against a team like the Spurs. Which makes Bynum key to the whole thing. You don't bring Bynum off the bench (Pau won't be coming off the bench thats for sure), his anchoring and rebounding ability is too dominant. Bynum was born to play next to a finesse PF like Pau and a guard like Kobe.

Lamar will get his boards wherever though...I'd rather see Bynum and Lamar out there together to rebound and kickstart the break, and Lamar works very well on the break.

Lamar doesn't box out very well, he is a rebounding thief, which is a good thing. But you can bet his rebounding will go WAY down playing the three. When Bynum was here, Lamar wasn't averaging double digit boards. Now factor in Bynum and Pau, there just won't be enough balls for Lamar to rebound which reduces Lamar's effectiveness. This is why I like him in the second unit. He becomes the go to guy, while making up for the boards Ronny won't get when he is contesting all those shots. The pressure won't be on the Lamar's shoulder either, since he's basically the 4th or even 5th option on the team.

You and I disagree in that Lamar won't be able to play the 3. His jumper isn't bad, but it isn't good. Pretty mediocre. What he DOES bring is the ability to drive at any time. No 3 can guard him, just as he has issues guarding threes.however, when he has help from two 7 footers he can play more open defense with backside help, while on offense he would annihilate any 3 trying to man him up. You can't double him, and it is mismatch city.
.

He can play the three, just not very efficiently. And yes his jumper is pretty bad if were factoring in 3point shooting and consistancy. He is streaky, which is a bad thing. If no 3 could guard Lamar Odom he would be a 20 point scorer during his career. Odom's main problem throughout his career is the inability to reconize and take advantage of mismatches. Yes, Lamar can drive anytime but he is very prone to missing layups and committing turnovers. The main point you are not adressing is the lack of space. With Pau playing power forward, there will be less space on the floor for Lamar to drive with Bynum clogging the lane.

if only to get Luke off the floor.

Oh god yes.

Until then though, we are going to see plenty of Lamar at the 3 on the floor with Bynum and Gasol, especially against teams like the Suns and the Spurs.

You see this scares me. Bowen will torch Lamar coming off picks (which is one of Lamar's main weakness defensively). Please do not even hint at Lamar trying to guard Ginobili. Manu will eat Lamar Odom alive on the offensive end. While on the other end, Manu can sag off Lamar (crappy jumper) and force him RIGHT (Lamar's right hand sucks) and facilitate his drives into one of the best defensive anchors of the past decade (Tim Duncan).

And I'm really interested to see how it works out. Unlike you, I have high hopes for Lamar at the 3 with absolutely NO weight on his shoulders...that isn't what we are paying him for, but I think it is how he will excel.

We were paying Lamar to be the second option. But there is nothing wrong with high hopes. I just don't see him exceling at the SF like he is doing right now at the Power forward position where he has all that space.

 

[mojorizen7]

carry on folks.

 

[D-Dogg]

Thats a weak defensive and rebounding lineup as we have seen these past few games.. Won't cut it come playoff time, especially against a team like the Spurs.

Actually, it has been a very good defensive lineup. TEAM defense...none of them are good 1 on 1 defenders, but they gel, are pesky and force turnovers which they convert easily. Bynum can run with that unit and give it some interior defense as well.

I think the Farmar/Sasha/Kobe/Pau/Bynum lineup will be our best bet against anyone that doesn't have two strong bigs down low. Athletic teams like the nooch, GS, Denver will have issues with that lineup.

 

[Ode to Ocho]

Actually, it has been a very good defensive lineup. TEAM defense...none of them are good 1 on 1 defenders, but they gel, are pesky and force turnovers which they convert easily. Bynum can run with that unit and give it some interior defense as well.

Gonna have to agree to disagree here. They played nice team defense in the second half against the Royless Blazers, but thats about it. The rest of the games on the current streak have been pretty lackluster in terms of interior defense and rebounding. This really stems from Pau not being a "true" center with mediocre post defense and Odom not being much of a weakside shotblocker.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that unless Bynum can come back to the level he was playing at that they will lose to a team like the Spurs/Pistons/Celtics in a playoff series and could get upset by a Western team like the Jazz. Bynum/Pau front line is an extremely formiddable inside in terms of challenging shots and whatnot. Pau is at his best defesively when he can play off a center who can post defend and anchor the middle.

 

[D-Dogg]

Gonna have to agree to disagree here. They played nice team defense in the second half against the Royless Blazers, but thats about it. The rest of the games on the current streak have been pretty lackluster in terms of interior defense and rebounding. This really stems from Pau not being a "true" center with mediocre post defense and Odom not being much of a weakside shotblocker.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that unless Bynum can come back to the level he was playing at that they will lose to a team like the Spurs/Pistons/Celtics in a playoff series and could get upset by a Western team like the Jazz. Bynum/Pau front line is an extremely formiddable inside in terms of challenging shots and whatnot. Pau is at his best defesively when he can play off a center who can post defend and anchor the middle.

I did NOT say they were doing well with interior defense and rebounding. I said that WHEN BYNUM RETURNS he can run with that unit and provide interior defense (and rebounding by default.) Without Drew, we are not rebounding or defending the interior well...it's a clear fact and I'd never say otherwise. You misunderstand me. What I said that lineup is good at is frenetic, hustle and pesky defense that causes a lot of turnovers. Not just the Portland game, but in every game Phil has used that lineup to be very aggressive on both ends of the court.

I agree with you in that Bynum not only has to return, but has to pick up where he left off. That is my major concern...he's going to be hesitant on that knee and scared early on. How quickly he gains his confidence back in himself and his knee is going to be crucial.

 

[nashman]

Spurs still the team to beat!

 

[Ode to Ocho]

Spurs still the team to beat!

At least they won't have Donaghy this year to help them..

 

[Agloco]

Why?

Pau's impeccable playoff record and experience


0-12 rofl

Well, he does have a long streak at least.......

 

[arwillan]

At least they won't have Donaghy this year to help them..

not that they need it.

 

[14 rings]

i still think they won't be in western conference finals.

call me mad but I think they lack guards.They won against Portland but not easily,plus half of their team is B.Roy and he was DNP.

I'm pretty sure there's some guy named Bynum who we're playing without right now, who happens to be a pretty integral part to our team. Just a thought.

Also interesting is that we're 13-1 without him since Pau arrived. But I have no problem with Suns fans thinking they'll beat the Lakers come playoff time. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[green machine]

I'm pretty sure there's some guy named Bynum who we're playing without right now, who happens to be a pretty integral part to our team. Just a thought.

Also interesting is that we're 13-1 without him since Pau arrived. But I have no problem with Suns fans thinking they'll beat the Lakers come playoff time. Enjoy it while it lasts.

If I'm a Lakers fan my biggest fear is that either Bynum doesn't come back healthy (in which case I think the team will get beat up in the paint) or when he comes back the team can't get him reintegrated into the lineup to the point where he's not hurting the team more then he's helping.

Either way, to assume once he comes back everything will be peachy is a bit naive, but if those things don't happen then I'd say the Lakers are the favorite.

 

[Darth Llama]

If I'm a Lakers fan my biggest fear is that either Bynum doesn't come back healthy (in which case I think the team will get beat up in the paint) or when he comes back the team can't get him reintegrated into the lineup to the point where he's not hurting the team more then he's helping.

Either way, to assume once he comes back everything will be peachy is a bit naive, but if those things don't happen then I'd say the Lakers are the favorite.

Right you are.

I'm not worried about the integration of Bynum for various reasons, but I am worried about him being tentative after his injury and regressing in the progress he was making as a player. He's a young kid (20 years old) dealing with the first serious injury of his career. It came at a time when we was really starting to emerge as a force for the Lakers as well. I think he'll benefit more from Gasol then be hindered by him though, as Bynum is really best used as a 3rd option for the Lakers not the 2nd, and now he can be. I just hope he doesn't lose confidence after the injury, that's a big concern for me.