How are the Lakers "the team to beat"?

[D-Dogg]

kobe isn't too far ahead of manu lately. ginobili is as hot as any player out there right now, and he usually has everything in gear for the playoffs. kobe is more than just slightly better than manu, i was just pointing out that ginobili is on fire lately. the guy can't miss from 3.

how is bowen not better than odom (assuming odom even plays sf)? he can shut down any perimeter player in the league on any given night. Odom plays a vanishing act in 99% of laker playoff games. His defense is average. His shooting is good for his size, but not better than bowen's lethal 3.

Bowen can't shoot from ANYWHERE on the court other than the corner three, and his defense is slipping as well. He's getting older, and he is no Kobe-stopper anyway.

Besides, Bowen guards Kobe, not Lamar. Odom has been playing unreal basketball since the Pau trade, and his rebounding is great. He isn't vanishing out there, not anymore. With responsibility taken off his shoulders, he's free to create and cut to the rim. He's a walking double double, had a triple double the other night in one game and a double double at halftime on another night. He's playing fantastic ball right now, and he also is a second-half of the season type player.

Bowen has defense and a corner three...and that is it. Factor age in, and I'd go with Odom anytime.

Interestingly, Bowen would be a great fit for the Lakers triangle as well, camping in the corners and playing perimeter d...but I still would rather have everything that Lamar brings, especially the rebounds.

 

[Trophytown]

I dont see how folks are overlooking the Jazz. They did go to the Western Conf Finals last year and they did add a marksman from long range. Theyve got grit and a coach thats got big game coaching experience (he's coached in the NBA finals before). I think they can present problems for any of the big three.

 

[FArting]

the answer to this thread is simple they're not.

the spurs are THE team to beat, bar-none. until someone beats them in a 7 game series, they are the best.

 

[passenger]

 

[French Fries]

I dont see how folks are overlooking the Jazz. They did go to the Western Conf Finals last year and they did add a marksman from long range. Theyve got grit and a coach thats got big game coaching experience (he's coached in the NBA finals before). I think they can present problems for any of the big three.

they just lost to the timberwolves...

jazz aren't the big bullies of the west, but they're not exactly a walk in the park either. both the lakers and suns will probably win the series against them, but it would be hardfought, i promise...

 

[arwillan]

Bowen can't shoot from ANYWHERE on the court other than the corner three, and his defense is slipping as well. He's getting older, and he is no Kobe-stopper anyway.

Besides, Bowen guards Kobe, not Lamar. Odom has been playing unreal basketball since the Pau trade, and his rebounding is great. He isn't vanishing out there, not anymore. With responsibility taken off his shoulders, he's free to create and cut to the rim. He's a walking double double, had a triple double the other night in one game and a double double at halftime on another night. He's playing fantastic ball right now, and he also is a second-half of the season type player.

Bowen has defense and a corner three...and that is it. Factor age in, and I'd go with Odom anytime.

Interestingly, Bowen would be a great fit for the Lakers triangle as well, camping in the corners and playing perimeter d...but I still would rather have everything that Lamar brings, especially the rebounds.

luckily for bowen, he doesn't have to shoot from anywhere but that corner now does he? I would say Bowen's age is offset by the fact that odom is prone to injury. I am still curious if lamar will start at the 3, however. that would be interesting, and probably not too good for the lakers.

if there is a second half of the season player/team in the league, it is bowen and the spurs. he ups his tactics in the playoffs, and knows how to win a title. Nobody on this planet is really a "kobe stopper", but bowen plays him about as well as anyone. Ginobili and finley also do a pretty decent job. I know odom is playing excellent basketball right now (i live in the l.a area and hear it every day), but the post season is a whole new deal. The spurs are THE team to beat in the post season, almost by default. When odom really plays well in the playoffs, i'll admit my error. until then, give me bowen in the post season.

 

[pokerface]

The Lakers are SCARY.....If the Lakers arnt the team to beat we sure arnt the team to beat. That alone makes me scared.



PEACE

 

[mojorizen7]

Will this thread ever go away?

 

[pokerface]

Will this thread ever go away?

Only if you pray real hard

 

[Phade]

lol @ pokerface the troll.. get a life you loser.

 

[D-Dogg]

luckily for bowen, he doesn't have to shoot from anywhere but that corner now does he? I would say Bowen's age is offset by the fact that odom is prone to injury. I am still curious if lamar will start at the 3, however. that would be interesting, and probably not too good for the lakers.

I think he's a much better 3 than a 4. Always have. He will definitely start the 3 when Bynum returns. Fish/Kobe/LO/Pau/Bynum is a formidible lineup.

if there is a second half of the season player/team in the league, it is bowen and the spurs. he ups his tactics in the playoffs, and knows how to win a title. Nobody on this planet is really a "kobe stopper", but bowen plays him about as well as anyone. Ginobili and finley also do a pretty decent job.

I will give you the Spurs as a great second half team...they routinely "click" post all star break. Manu always does. Bowen I still don't give the credit to, but you used a good word there in his "tactics." He's definitely a smart (if dirty) player and that's another area where he's loads better than Lamar. LO still makes braindead mistakes..even last night with the game fairly in hand and a minute and a half left he drives to the rim with 18 on the shot clock...he got fouled but I've seen him get the offensive foul many times. Bowen would never do that (he'd never drive, yes, but if he did he'd understand that wasn't the time for it). Heady play is a plus for Bruce Lee Bowen.

I know odom is playing excellent basketball right now (i live in the l.a area and hear it every day), but the post season is a whole new deal. ~snip to address later~
When odom really plays well in the playoffs, i'll admit my error. until then, give me bowen in the post season.

Odom has played well in the playoffs though. In fact, his playoff stats are a LOT better than his regular stats.

LO in the playoffs.

03-04 MIA .445% 8.3 RPG 2.8 APG 16.8 PPG
05-06 LAL .495% 11.0 RPG 4.9 APG 19.1 PPG
06-07 LAL .482% 13.0 RPG 2.2 APG 19.4 PPG

Career Playoffs .467% 10.0 RPG 3.3 APG 18.0 PPG


Career Regular Season stats (he's avg'd 35MPG every season, so these are good numbers to baseline from).

.456% 8.8RPG 4.5APG 15.6PPG

Now, an argument can be made that with the Lakers he did his damage against Marion, who he flat out owns...but regardless, his career playoff numbers are elevated from his career season numbers. And his Miami season, first time in the playoffs, the numbers were equal or just a tad lower in the playoffs than the regular season. The guy steps it up for the playoffs. He seems to START seasons hot for a few weeks, then is average or poor until after the AS break.

The spurs are THE team to beat in the post season, almost by default.

Absolutely, no question about it. Not just because they have the ring now, but because they have the same team that won it last year, now with improved depth. They are still damn good and the team to go through. It is why I'm desperate for the Lakes to hold on to the top seed because if they are to meet with the Spurs, I want more games at Staples and even then it's a nightmare series.

 

[BeeBeard]

The Lakers aren't the team to beat at all, unless we're supposed to infer that their stomping all over sub .500 teams the past few weeks is some indication of greatness. Let's stop bumping this post!

(ironic bump)

 

[ambchang_]

Odom has played well in the playoffs though. In fact, his playoff stats are a LOT better than his regular stats.

LO in the playoffs.

03-04 MIA .445% 8.3 RPG 2.8 APG 16.8 PPG
05-06 LAL .495% 11.0 RPG 4.9 APG 19.1 PPG
06-07 LAL .482% 13.0 RPG 2.2 APG 19.4 PPG

Career Playoffs .467% 10.0 RPG 3.3 APG 18.0 PPG


Career Regular Season stats (he's avg'd 35MPG every season, so these are good numbers to baseline from).

.456% 8.8RPG 4.5APG 15.6PPG

These are some very very misleading statistics, you pick and choose the ones that fit the bill, using 3 playoff's statistics vs. 9 season's worth of regular season stats.

The Miami year, his stats dropped in the playoffs vs. the regular season, and the two seasons in LA, he played against the Suns (which you addressed). We know that any player with an inside game will play well against the Suns due to the lack of an interior defender on the Suns, and also because of the tremendous pace, opponents usually get better stats.

Even Kwame Brown got 13 and 6 vs. the Suns in 05, and 9 and 6 in 07.

 

[D-Dogg]

These are some very very misleading statistics, you pick and choose the ones that fit the bill, using 3 playoff's statistics vs. 9 season's worth of regular season stats.

Excuse me, but how are you supposed to debate about playoff stats vs. regular season stats if you can't talk about the playoff stats.

I pick and choose the ones that were pertinent to the discussion, not the ones that "fit the bill." They are all we have to go off of.

The Miami year, his stats dropped in the playoffs vs. the regular season,

Slightly, not much at all. A rebound and a few tenths of a point in PPG.

and the two seasons in LA, he played against the Suns (which you addressed). We know that any player with an inside game will play well against the Suns due to the lack of an interior defender on the Suns, and also because of the tremendous pace, opponents usually get better stats.

I wouldn't call Lamar a guy with an "inside game." He gets his points off of his mediocre outside shooting, and driving the lane or cutting off the ball. He's not a guy who will be down there posting up. He's an initiator, and a creator. Vs. the Suns, he got his points because Marion simply can't handle him.

Even Kwame Brown got 13 and 6 vs. the Suns in 05, and 9 and 6 in 07

The only thing he increased there was points. Lamar increased across the board.

Until he proves it otherwise, LO's stats bear out that he's better in the playoffs than the regular season. At the very least, he doesn't disappear in the playoffs, which is the comment that opened up this debate in the first place.

 

[ambchang_]

Excuse me, but how are you supposed to debate about playoff stats vs. regular season stats if you can't talk about the playoff stats.

I pick and choose the ones that were pertinent to the discussion, not the ones that "fit the bill." They are all we have to go off of.

And the ones that are pertinent to the discussion should be those that are of the same season as his playoff seasons. No good comparing his Clipper days when he didn't make the playoffs.

Slightly, not much at all. A rebound and a few tenths of a point in PPG.

That is a normal drop, but to say that his playoff stats were better than his regular season stats, when you were comparing different stages of his career, is misleading.

I wouldn't call Lamar a guy with an "inside game." He gets his points off of his mediocre outside shooting, and driving the lane or cutting off the ball. He's not a guy who will be down there posting up. He's an initiator, and a creator. Vs. the Suns, he got his points because Marion simply can't handle him.

He does post up and during the Suns series, he routinely abused the Suns defense by going in the paint. The fact that he had a favourable matchup more or less undermines your effort at saying that he is not particularly good in the playoffs vs. the regular season.

The only thing he increased there was points. Lamar increased across the board.

Until he proves it otherwise, LO's stats bear out that he's better in the playoffs than the regular season. At the very least, he doesn't disappear in the playoffs, which is the comment that opened up this debate in the first place.

Yes, I am no issue with him having better numbers in the playoffs vs. the regular season, what I had a problem is is that the numbers you chose were not representative at all, and serves to make Odom better than he really is.

 

[D-Dogg]

Lamar's career numbers are pretty even across the board. He's always scored between 13 and 17 points in the regular season. He is fairly consistent in that regard, so his career numbers vs. his playoff numbers is a pretty good baseline comparison. It isn't like he scored 24 a game some years, and 6 a game others.

He dropped a little bit over his miami numbers that season, hardly anything though as I mentioned above. The two playoff seasons with the Lakers he was WELL above his regular season numbers.

I've attached his career stats...see for yourself. Your argument against what I'm saying is much ado about nothing. I didn't pick and chose any stats to help my cause...in fact the Laker years disparity in the stats helps my case and I left it out. I was simply being lazy and figured a worded recap of those years would suffice. Guess not. Actual stats are attached and I stand by what I posted.

His stats are also here if you want to read them.

 

[ambchang_]

His Miami regular season numbers translates to how he works in the Heat system that year, and that is the number that he should be gauged against in the POs of that season. Same with his LA days. You can say that he has performed extremely well as a Laker in the PO, and that would be correct. I just have an issue with how the statistics were used.
I apologize if I came across as accusing you of manipulating data. What I meant to point out is that the numbers were misleading.
Finally, I would say 13 and 17 ppg is quite a difference. If Parker only scores 13ppg in the playoffs this year, the Spurs are screwed.

 

[Ode to Ocho]

I think he's a much better 3 than a 4. Always have. He will definitely start the 3 when Bynum returns. Fish/Kobe/LO/Pau/Bynum is a formidible lineup.
.

Odom has never been a better a 3 than 4 and the history/statistics back that up. Phil and Tex winter have tried to play Odom play the 3 on numerous occassions and every time it ended in disaster. This is before even factoring in that Odom struggles horribly at guarding the quicker 3's in the league, or hell, even the slower ones. Just ask Wally and Cuttino about the Carrer/season highs they put up against LO these past 3 years.

Fact is, a shooting forward needs to be able to shoot. LO can't do that with his regressing, inconsistent jumpshot. Thats a fact. Teams will be able to sag off him, hence, Lamar becoming a liability on the floor out there with KGB.

What LO is doing right now is coming from playing the power forward position, which just so happens to be the best basketball he has played in his career. Once Bynum comes back, this will all change. LO's rebounding will go down and so will the space on the floor where Odom is getting all those open baskets by slashing to the lane. That space won't be there with Pau playing the highpost.

 

[pokerface]

The Lakers aren't the team to beat at all, unless we're supposed to infer that their stomping all over sub .500 teams the past few weeks is some indication of greatness. Let's stop bumping this post!

(ironic bump)

"Lakers arnt the team to beat at all"....at all??


Well uhh...They destroyed our azzez...without Bynum.

 

[Lorenzo]

well in short they have the most dominant scorer in the game combined with a good supporting cast and a 20+ point low post scorer.......then possibly a healthy bynum. all of this makes them a legit contender in the west. whether they are the best team....that will have to be proven. but they look better or as good as any other WC team at the moment.

 

[D-Dogg]

Odom has never been a better a 3 than 4 and the history/statistics back that up. Phil and Tex winter have tried to play Odom play the 3 on numerous occassions and every time it ended in disaster. This is before even factoring in that Odom struggles horribly at guarding the quicker 3's in the league, or hell, even the slower ones. Just ask Wally and Cuttino about the Carrer/season highs they put up against LO these past 3 years.

Fact is, a shooting forward needs to be able to shoot. LO can't do that with his regressing, inconsistent jumpshot. Thats a fact. Teams will be able to sag off him, hence, Lamar becoming a liability on the floor out there with KGB.

What LO is doing right now is coming from playing the power forward position, which just so happens to be the best basketball he has played in his career. Once Bynum comes back, this will all change. LO's rebounding will go down and so will the space on the floor where Odom is getting all those open baskets by slashing to the lane. That space won't be there with Pau playing the highpost.

You are more wrong than you know, but I'll just let you figure that out when Bynum returns. You are unswayable at this point.


Because if it doesn't work out, we are screwed.

 

[bko32]

Just because the Spurs won it all last year doesn't make them the team to beat, imo. The team to beat is the team that is playing the best heading into the playoffs. If we SIMPLY went off of last season's success to determine the team to beat, then as far as the eastern conference goes, Cleveland is the team to beat.

 

[bko32]

The Lakers aren't the team to beat at all, unless we're supposed to infer that their stomping all over sub .500 teams the past few weeks is some indication of greatness. Let's stop bumping this post!

(ironic bump)

The Lakers have the best record in the West, 3rd best record in the entire league. They've been stomping all teams, irregardless of the opponent's record.

Right now, with how all teams are playing, Detroit is the team to beat in the east and the Lakers are the team to beat out west. Obviously, this could change as the playoffs approach, but if the playoffs were to start today, I'd say these 2 teams would be highly favored to make the finals based on how they're currently playing.

 

[Lorenzo]

The Lakers have the best record in the West, 3rd best record in the entire league. They've been stomping all teams, irregardless of the opponent's record.

Right now, with how all teams are playing, Detroit is the team to beat in the east and the Lakers are the team to beat out west. Obviously, this could change as the playoffs approach, but if the playoffs were to start today, I'd say these 2 teams would be highly favored to make the finals based on how they're currently playing.

I said that about the mavs last year too and they stomped teams for a longer period of time than the current lakers have. since the gasol trade.......sure i give you that. but they have much more to prove than what they have done in a very small stretch. there is a lot that will be settled in the playoffs. and any team 1-8 can beat one another come that time. the east is different obviously. 4 team race IMO.

 

[pokerface]

If we switched teams with the Lakers we'd love the heck out of them.