How Great is the 2017 draft class?

JCSunsfan

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We are not passing on a potential star. Ball is not more of a potential star and imo more risky than Fultz, Smith, Jackson or Tatum.

I disagree. I like Fultz and Ball almost equally. Jackson is third. Then the rest.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think the Suns should maybe be one of those teams.

Can you imagine if the team's doing bad record wise and he goes off saying "Oh my kid doesn't get any recognition cause he plays for such a bad team, he would get MVP if he was on so and so team!!" or if he didn't get minutes or something like that?

I'm not sure its worth the risk when there are so many great candidates besides Ball in this draft.
Don't let relatives impact your decisionmaking. Nothing out of lonzo himself causes me concern. Look at Fitz' family. Nutjobs. He's a professional.
 

ColdPickleNachos

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I disagree. I like Fultz and Ball almost equally. Jackson is third. Then the rest.

Yeah. Jackson would be an amazing fit and would bring defensive skills the Suns desperately need, but I think Ball and Fultz have the best chance of being franchise players.

Tatum and Smith are incredibly talented, but I have concerns about their playing styles.
 

slinslin

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Smith plays a lot like Fultz and is a better shooter than either Fultz or Ball.

He has also shown clear NBA PG skills in the pick and roll, getting to the rim etc. Something that is a lot more vague with Ball who is an unconventional player.

Did not work out so well last time the Suns picked a pass first PG who was a great floor general in college and mostly thrived in a fast paced fast break offense.
 

JCSunsfan

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Smith plays a lot like Fultz and is a better shooter than either Fultz or Ball.

He has also shown clear NBA PG skills in the pick and roll, getting to the rim etc. Something that is a lot more vague with Ball who is an unconventional player.

Did not work out so well last time the Suns picked a pass first PG who was a great floor general in college and mostly thrived in a fast paced fast break offense.

And who was completely inept as a defender, unathletic and VERY slow.

Ball is faster, more athletic, and a much better defender. No comparison. Both Smith and Fultz are VERY high usage players. That concerns me some. How will they fare on an NBA squad where they are not nearly the focus?
 

ColdPickleNachos

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You're the first person I've come across who considers Smith to be a better shooter than Fultz. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but it is far from a popular take. (Yes, I know his free throw percentage is better.)

Lonzo Ball is not Kendall Marshall, and I think that is an unfair comparison.
 

Russ Smith

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We are not passing on a potential star. Ball is not more of a potential star and imo more risky than Fultz, Smith, Jackson or Tatum.


Because of his dad?

Smith already had 1 major knee surgery and is a guy who lives on athleticism. Fultz has skipped games with a sore knee so there's some concern there. Jackson is a great player people just aren't sure what position he'll play, Tatum has a chance to be great but he's a selfish player.

All of them have a risk.
 

Russ Smith

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Nice there's a link in there to another article about Tatum which fits lots of what I don't like about Tatum. Mentions his isolation game, doesn't pass the ball much, not quick enough to defend 3's his defense at Duke might look ok because he's playing the 4, when he has to guard away from the basket he can't do it.

https://theringer.com/jayson-tatums-old-game-could-use-some-new-tricks-c37f49bb21b8#.ciosdpjb8

Also has an interesting bit in there about success on isolations, where despite very low numbers Lonzo Ball is over 1 point per isolation because of his ability to free himself up for those long range bomb 3's like the one he again hit Saturday to end the first half against USC.

the stuff about jackson in the McD's game I referred to before, during the practices that week Jackson was widely considered the best player there, going head to head against the other guys virtually everyone said he's the best player. At one point after the practices they asked him about some of the other guys that impressed him and he said the kid that had really impressed him, because he hadn't really seen him much on the AAU circuit, was Lonzo Ball. He said he didn't know until the practices how good Lonzo was he came away saying he loved playing with Lonzo. For a minute on UCLA boards it sparked hope that UCLA might still have a chance to get Josh of course that was a pipe dream UCLA had been out of it on him for months.
 

slinslin

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You're the first person I've come across who considers Smith to be a better shooter than Fultz. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but it is far from a popular take. (Yes, I know his free throw percentage is better.)

Lonzo Ball is not Kendall Marshall, and I think that is an unfair comparison.

fultz 50.2% 2pt% 41.3% 3pt 64.9%FT 53.5%eFG
smith 52% 2pt% 37.4% 3pt 71%FT 53.5%eFG

They are very close and both shoot a considerable amount of the dribble and few to no wide open looks. And yes I give the slight edge to Smith because of his better numbers from the line.

They both shoot 6.7 free throws per game, fultz shoots 4.8 3s, Smith 5 3s..

Fultz averages 35/9/9 per 100 pos, Smith averages 30/10/7.

No doubt about Fultz as the better prospect though because he does everything Smith does at a comparable level at least and is 2-3 inches taller without an injury history.

Smith is underrated in my opinion and if it was not for the injury in highschool I think he could be considered the #2 prospect behind Fultz.
 

AzStevenCal

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I like them both but Tatum is a ball stopper and while both are often playing out of position at the 4, Jackson IMO is the better defender. jackson can guard 3's and 2's, Tatum can't, so unless you're drafting him as a 4, you have to find out if he can defend at the NBA level as that's likely where he plays unless he grows a bit more.

I like both, I'm a big Jackson fan he's just one of those kids that does all the little things that help you win. Tatum to me is a bit more selfish kid although he seems to be playing better of late so maybe it was getting used to his teammates.

Yeah, as I've said before, the two highly regarded prospects that I'd avoid from this class are Tatum and Smith.
 

AzStevenCal

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Because of his dad?

I'm not running away in fear of his dad but there is a concern here. Much of the talk right after the latest CBA was approved centered around what agents and players will do to shift some power back their way. It's clear that their best chance to control their future has to come before they sign that first deal.

It's been suggested by many close to the situation that we will see an increase in players and agents controlling the pre-draft process in such a way as to force star players to a team of their choosing. With Ball's dad now having declared, not once but multiple times, that Lonzo will be a Laker, I think that becomes a real concern. And enough of a concern to tip me elsewhere unless we're thinking our choice is on the level of the Magic Johnson vs Sidney Moncrief decision.
 

ColdPickleNachos

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Fultz 50.2% 2pt% 41.3% 3pt 64.9%FT 53.5%eFG
Smith 52% 2pt% 37.4% 3pt 71%FT 53.5%eFG
Ball 71% 2pt% 43% 3pt 68%FT 67.3%eFG

I understand the issue with release point and how that could affect Ball's transition to the pros. Sometimes stats are overrated.

To me, Fultz and Ball both pass the eye test with flying colors. I still need to see a little bit more from Smith.
 

AzStevenCal

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Fultz 50.2% 2pt% 41.3% 3pt 64.9%FT 53.5%eFG
Smith 52% 2pt% 37.4% 3pt 71%FT 53.5%eFG
Ball 71% 2pt% 43% 3pt 68%FT 67.3%eFG

I understand the issue with release point and how that could affect Ball's transition to the pros. Sometimes stats are overrated.

To me, Fultz and Ball both pass the eye test with flying colors. I still need to see a little bit more from Smith.

With his quick release and his height, I think it's an imaginary problem. Worst case scenario, they put a small forward on him but that's still a win for whoever he's playing for. Anytime you can create a mismatch, that's a win. If you have your best small forward defender guarding the point guard, who is shutting down the wing player he should have been guarding. And that's if Ball can't run away from that small forward which I find highly unlikely. Ball will be a nightmare for most defenses IMO.
 

JCSunsfan

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With his quick release and his height, I think it's an imaginary problem. Worst case scenario, they put a small forward on him but that's still a win for whoever he's playing for. Anytime you can create a mismatch, that's a win. If you have your best small forward defender guarding the point guard, who is shutting down the wing player he should have been guarding. And that's if Ball can't run away from that small forward which I find highly unlikely. Ball will be a nightmare for most defenses IMO.

I agree with you. Ball's game is not as the primary scorer, so that release point doesn't matter so much. He just has to be able to hit that shot when he is open, and he does at an astounding rate. He will be like Steve Nash in that his passing will open up his shooting.

More and more I like Ball over Fultz but I hate to admit it.
 

ColdPickleNachos

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I agree with you. Ball's game is not as the primary scorer, so that release point doesn't matter so much. He just has to be able to hit that shot when he is open, and he does at an astounding rate. He will be like Steve Nash in that his passing will open up his shooting.

More and more I like Ball over Fultz but I hate to admit it.

I've been an advocate of Ball as the top prospect in this draft for months now. I think the release point is not ideal (hence the concession) but I also agree it is far from a deal-breaker for the reasons stated and more.

The Suns are dead last in the league in assists. Bledsoe and Booker have average assist numbers for starters at their positions, but our front court creates almost no assists. The assist rate is low because the forwards don't get assists. Whether that is due more to isolation plays and ball dominance from the guards or a lack of skill or desire to pass on the part of our frontcourt....it's an argument.

I think Ball has the potential to dramatically alter this issue, and I think Josh Jackson would also be a big help in this area. Fultz, I'm not so sure. But he's so talented he is worth taking high anyway.
 

Russ Smith

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I'm not running away in fear of his dad but there is a concern here. Much of the talk right after the latest CBA was approved centered around what agents and players will do to shift some power back their way. It's clear that their best chance to control their future has to come before they sign that first deal.

It's been suggested by many close to the situation that we will see an increase in players and agents controlling the pre-draft process in such a way as to force star players to a team of their choosing. With Ball's dad now having declared, not once but multiple times, that Lonzo will be a Laker, I think that becomes a real concern. And enough of a concern to tip me elsewhere unless we're thinking our choice is on the level of the Magic Johnson vs Sidney Moncrief decision.


Gotcha, I don't pay enough attention to LaVar to be aware he said that about the Lakers I just heard the stuff about Curry because it was on during the game.

During the same game he said he believes at some point all 3 of his sons will be in the same All Star Game, he's pretty confident.

He's the guy who says essentially his pick up line to his wife when they first met was something about if we get together our kids will be superstars because he's 6'6" and she's 6 foot tall.
 

Russ Smith

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With his quick release and his height, I think it's an imaginary problem. Worst case scenario, they put a small forward on him but that's still a win for whoever he's playing for. Anytime you can create a mismatch, that's a win. If you have your best small forward defender guarding the point guard, who is shutting down the wing player he should have been guarding. And that's if Ball can't run away from that small forward which I find highly unlikely. Ball will be a nightmare for most defenses IMO.


Yeah one of my fantasy scenarios for the Warriors would be if they decide they have too many high priced stars they could trade Klay Thompson for Lonzo, play Lonzo at the 1, Curry at the 2 but Curry guards the 1 and Lonzo the 2.

Not that I want to trade Klay and I realize the money wouldn't work without getting other players in addition to Lonzo so the savings probably don't add up but it crosses my mind anyways.

He and Josh Jackson are the 2 kids in the draft as a Warrior fan I covet but realize we can't get. Then you look at a kid like Giles or Bolden who are clearly losing draft stock but have upside. My other hope was Jarrett Allen at Texas but he's too good no way he's on the board when the Warriors pick.
 

AzStevenCal

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Gotcha, I don't pay enough attention to LaVar to be aware he said that about the Lakers I just heard the stuff about Curry because it was on during the game.

During the same game he said he believes at some point all 3 of his sons will be in the same All Star Game, he's pretty confident.

He's the guy who says essentially his pick up line to his wife when they first met was something about if we get together our kids will be superstars because he's 6'6" and she's 6 foot tall.

Yeah I take much of what he says with a grain of salt but he's aware of what he's saying, he has a reason for it. There's nothing to say that the Laker will be equally enamored of him but Ball certainly seems like the kind of player Magic is looking for. Someone to bring back the show. So I don't know if I want to involve my team in that mess. We might have no choice though.
 

Russ Smith

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Yeah I take much of what he says with a grain of salt but he's aware of what he's saying, he has a reason for it. There's nothing to say that the Laker will be equally enamored of him but Ball certainly seems like the kind of player Magic is looking for. Someone to bring back the show. So I don't know if I want to involve my team in that mess. We might have no choice though.


Virtually every UCLA fan I know who's also a Lakers fan wants Lonzo so there may in fact be something to it.

It was funny many of them are the same people who were flying banners over Pauley 6 months ago and posting over and over on UCLA boards they were giving up their season tickets until Alford got fired. Yet somehow all of them now are openly talking about how much fun the games are this year so apparently none of them actually gave up their tickets despite openly encouraging other UCLA fans to give up theirs to pressure UCLA to fire Alford.

Fickle fan base, but many of them are Lakers fans too. If you're the right age that's a ton of titles between UCLA and the Lakers so you sort of set your expectations really high.
 

AzStevenCal

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Yeah one of my fantasy scenarios for the Warriors would be if they decide they have too many high priced stars they could trade Klay Thompson for Lonzo, play Lonzo at the 1, Curry at the 2 but Curry guards the 1 and Lonzo the 2.

Not that I want to trade Klay and I realize the money wouldn't work without getting other players in addition to Lonzo so the savings probably don't add up but it crosses my mind anyways.

He and Josh Jackson are the 2 kids in the draft as a Warrior fan I covet but realize we can't get. Then you look at a kid like Giles or Bolden who are clearly losing draft stock but have upside. My other hope was Jarrett Allen at Texas but he's too good no way he's on the board when the Warriors pick.

A player such as Johnathon Motley or Miles Bridges might fall far enough so that the Warriors could find a way into this draft at a reasonable price. Not that I'd predict stardom for either but they both seem to have some NBA level talent along with quite a few others that look to be there as the first round closes.
 

AzStevenCal

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Fickle fan base, but many of them are Lakers fans too. If you're the right age that's a ton of titles between UCLA and the Lakers so you sort of set your expectations really high.

Aren't they all. The only thing I'd say about much of the Lakers fan base, they're holding onto unrealistic expectations and have yet to fully accept the modern landscape. I said a few years ago (and received pushback) that the idea the Lakers would just open their coffers and superstars would come running was obsolete. But if Ball turns out to be what I think he will be, they'll soon find it much easier to add the rest of the pieces once they have their foundation laid.
 

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My other hope was Jarrett Allen at Texas but he's too good no way he's on the board when the Warriors pick.

Believe it or not, there are rumors he stays a second year. I often wonder if he regrets his choice of UT for his only year, but maybe it won't be his only. We will see.
 

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Believe it or not, there are rumors he stays a second year. I often wonder if he regrets his choice of UT for his only year, but maybe it won't be his only. We will see.

Remember when everyone thought Shaka would turn them into a power?

Allen has a ton of potential. He's like Hakim Warrick with actual game. He should look at Rabb as an example not to return. If you're lottery bound = go
 

Russ Smith

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Believe it or not, there are rumors he stays a second year. I often wonder if he regrets his choice of UT for his only year, but maybe it won't be his only. We will see.


Yeah I've seen rumors about that too. He said when he committed that he wasn't in a rush to be a one and done it was a decision he'd make when the time was right.

And yes if I were a KU fan I'd be thinking the same thing, if Allen had picked Kansas you guys might be unbeaten right now.

He's intriguing he has a bit of runs like an old man which concerns me but then you watch and he's outrunning guys while running like that. He needs to get stronger but an awfully talented kid.
 

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