How long until the Suns are back in the playoffs?

[Chaplin]

this is wild speculation at this point, especially in a world where guys are playing more and more after these surgeries.



you can't say this with ANY degree of certainty. Dude seems to be getting stronger and stronger the further he's getting away from the surgery. Webber's surgery came a couple years before Amare's AND he was MUCH older when it happened. I don't think there's really any basis to make a comparison between the two.



just because the Knicks were stupid and handed the keys to the castle over to Melo doesn't mean Amare didn't turn that team around before Dolan nuked the entire team.

So now you think he'll be playing at a high level in 4 years for the Knicks? You guys are asking ME for a crystal ball? It's not like doctors have said his chances are good that he'll need another surgery in a few years, right? Oh, wait...

 

[sunsfan88]

Imagine if we had traded Amare to Portland when they actually offered us LaMarcus Alridge for him straight up...

 

[Chaplin]

I think it's funny that people want us to be horrible just so we can get a few draft picks and hope we're not incompetent enough to draft the next Kevin Durant. That strategy has worked out GREAT for tonight's opponent, the Minnesota Timberwolves, hasn't it? I mean, what is it, they've had 7 first round picks in the past 2 years? 7!! And other than Kevin Love, their best player is a player they got in a TRADE.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So now you think he'll be playing at a high level in 4 years for the Knicks?

uh, chap, i NEVER said ANYTHING like that. i have no idea how he'll be playing, but you are making statements that he WILL be Chris Webber as if they're fact. seriously, don't put words into my mouth like you did above.

You guys are asking ME for a crystal ball?

what are you talking about? we're not asking you for anything. You flat out told us what your crystal ball says when you said he'll be Chris Webber in a couple years.

It's not like doctors have said his chances are good that he'll need another surgery in a few years, right? Oh, wait...

and who's doctors were those? paid for by the Suns... who didn't want to pay him? and they said that years ago and so far have been proven wrong. And when does Jason Kidd need that next surgery? Or Zach Randolph?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think it's funny that people want us to be horrible just so we can get a few draft picks and hope we're not incompetent enough to draft the next Kevin Durant. That strategy has worked out GREAT for tonight's opponent, the Minnesota Timberwolves, hasn't it? I mean, what is it, they've had 7 first round picks in the past 2 years? 7!! And other than Kevin Love, their best player is a player they got in a TRADE.

which is why you have to have smart basketball people running your ship... which sadly, i don't think we do. the T-Wolves sure don't, never have, never will. They're the same organization who gave JOE SMITH a huge under the table deal and drafted two PGs in the lottery.

 

[elindholm]

First off, IMO, it's insulting to suggest that your point of view carries the weight of common sense thereby suggesting that others lack in that regard.

Rebutting an argument by saying "I've heard the opposite" is a FOX News tactic. You can "hear" anything if you listen to enough sources. The unsupported opinion of a random talking head, or even a hundred random talking heads isn't evidence. I meant no personal insult.

Secondly, when I mentioned hearing this argument throughout the years, I meant just that. I've been hearing this argument since long before I ever heard of the internet. It comes up pretty much every time a league discusses expansion.

Sure, if you assume a fixed talent pool, then expanding the league will dilute it.

Also, please note that I'm not confident of my position, I'm just not convinced by yours.

Right, thus the succession of straw men. I accept that you aren't convinced.

I think the NBA is incredibly watered down from the league I grew up watching in the 60's. Yes, the average player is much more gifted athletically but the overall basketball IQ has dropped significantly IMO.

That's not a "talent" question. Players today have lower basketball IQs because (a) they don't need deep basketball understanding in order to get rich, (b) many of them have less experience being coached, and (c) the rules (explicit and implicit) of the game have been changed so as to privilege athleticism. But the talent is overwhelmingly higher. When I watch a vintage game, I see the occasional pretty pass or well timed cut, but I also see a bunch of scrawny guys who would have a hard time surviving even a typical inner-city pickup game. Take an average NBA team from the 60s and put them up against an average NBA team from 2011, playing by today's rules, and they would stand no more of a chance than would a WNBA team. I doubt that anyone truly believes otherwise.

 

[chickenhead]

I think the general debate misses the point that good management can do it both ways. Sure, the Sonics drafted Durant with the #2 pick and now the Thunder have the once-a-decade draft pick strategy going for them. But Portland drafted Oden #1, so it doesn't always work out.

Meanwhile, as of yet neither the Durant or Griffin picks have had anywhere near the effect of the moves that brought the Big 3 together in Boston, or Gasol to the Lakers. Those weren't free agent signings OR top draft picks. It was pure mind control.

 

[slinslin]

Portland also drafted Roy, Aldridge, Batum, Fernandez etc etc

Of course it does not always work out but look at ANY top team. There key players are their own draft picks.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Rebutting an argument by saying "I've heard the opposite" is a FOX News tactic. You can "hear" anything if you listen to enough sources. The unsupported opinion of a random talking head, or even a hundred random talking heads isn't evidence. I meant no personal insult.

Eric, at least be honest about it. When you ridicule someone, when you talk down to someone, you absolutely intend insult. Read the following paragraph and explain to yourself (I don't need the explanation) how your intent could be anything other than insult.

The contention that it's easier to win a title in a 30-team league than in a 12-team one isn't really defensible. You may "hear the argument," but you'll also hear people insist that dinosaurs and humans coexisted or that a coin is "due" to come up heads after you've seen it land tails the last six times in a row. At some point, common sense needs to override the noise of internet chatter.

Following up that post by comparing my style to "Fox News" and reducing my position to a "succession of straw men" isn't exactly conducive to the communication process. You did everything but resort to name calling. None of this is what I'm looking for when I engage in a discussion with an educated adult. So congratulations, you win by default because I'm done.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

Eric, at least be honest about it. When you ridicule someone, when you talk down to someone, you absolutely intend insult. Read the following paragraph and explain to yourself (I don't need the explanation) how your intent could be anything other than insult.



Following up that post by comparing my style to "Fox News" and reducing my position to a "succession of straw men" isn't exactly conducive to the communication process. You did everything but resort to name calling. None of this is what I'm looking for when I engage in a discussion with an educated adult. So congratulations, you win by default because I'm done.

Steve

dude, don't even bother trying here. he'll push you places you don't want to go.

 

[elindholm]

Eric, at least be honest about it. When you ridicule someone, when you talk down to someone, you absolutely intend insult. Read the following paragraph and explain to yourself (I don't need the explanation) how your intent could be anything other than insult.

I'm making a distinction that I guess you don't. To me, identifying flaws in the logic of someone's argument is not an insult. It would be like if I showed you a math problem and you noticed that I had made a computational error. You could say, "That's an obvious mistake," or even "That's the kind of mistake a moron would make," and it would not (to me) be personally insulting. My appropriate response, once I realized that you were correct, would be to say, "You're right, that's a stupid mistake." Logic errors are what they are.

If you want to accuse me of "talking down to" you, then I guess I'm guilty as charged. I can't understand why someone as intelligent as you are would resort to an "I heard the opposite" argument. It goes against what I think I know about you. And, in spite of your protest, I do think that your -- yes, your -- common sense tells you that it isn't a valid debating tactic. For some reason, you are focused on identifying the ways in which my position isn't objectively true, but that's a waste of time, because the entire discussion pretty obviously lies outside the realm of fact.

None of this is what I'm looking for when I engage in a discussion with an educated adult.

I guess we look for different things. I look for someone who is genuinely interested in linking evidence to conclusion, realizes that weak logic has no place in an "educated" debate, and is able to distinguish an intellectual attack from a personal one.

I apologize if the language of my attack came across as personal.

 

[desertdawg]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2431302&postcount=1

Folks talk about getting value for Nash, what have we gotten from him so far? Is he Jordan, Shaq, or whoever? No.
Do I like making the playoffs? Yes. Will Nash help us make the playoffs next year and have we already gotten his best? Yes. If the trade is too good to pass up and Nash is cool with it...ok, but if not...I want to go to the game when Nash retires as a Sun. I want to take my kid to that game.

 

[sunsfan88]

I think we have a good shot at playoffs by about 2018.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Portland also drafted Roy, Aldridge, Batum, Fernandez etc etc

Of course it does not always work out but look at ANY top team. There key players are their own draft picks.

It depends on what you mean by Key Players though. In the Portland example, the only key player I see is Aldridge. I guess you could make a case for Roy but he's been a shell of his former self this year. The other key players? Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, Gerald Wallace.

 

[slinslin]

It depends on what you mean by Key Players though. In the Portland example, the only key player I see is Aldridge. I guess you could make a case for Roy but he's been a shell of his former self this year. The other key players? Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, Gerald Wallace.

It depends on what you mean by Key Players though. In the Portland example, the only key player I see is Aldridge. I guess you could make a case for Roy but he's been a shell of his former self this year. The other key players? Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, Gerald Wallace.

Portland is no top team this year without Roy.

When they were their top players were Oden, Roy, Aldridge, Batum, Miller plus they had Batum and Fernandez.

Chicago - Rose, Noah, Deng (plus Boozer)
Orlando - Howard, Nelson (plus JRich/Turk)
Miami - Wade (plus Shaq or Lebron/Bosh)
Lakers - Kobe, Bynum (plus Odom/Gasol)
Spurs - Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Hill, Blair
Oklahoma - Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka and before Green and also Aldrich etc
Denver - used to be Melo and Nene (plus Billups/Iverson)
New Orleans - Paul, West (plus Okafor)
Atlanta - Horford, Smith, Williams (plus Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford)
Boston - Pierce, Rondo (traded Jefferson for Garnett, traded #5 pick for Allen, traded Perkins for Green)
Dallas - Nowitzki, Beaubois and lots of luxury tax

What do we see here? They are all built around their own draft picks, no exception.

The only exception might have been that Detroit Pistons team that only had Tayshaun Prince but that team defied all odds anyway look where trying to redo that strategy has got the Pistons now.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Minor, but the only really good draft picks we've made in the past 25 years were Amare and Marion. KJ was NOT a draft pick--he was with Cleveland for most of the 87-88 season before getting traded to us.

Historically, the Suns have the 4th-best record in the history of the league, and it's not because of the draft. I'd say it 75% trades/free agency and 25% draft that has led to our success over the years. So we can't sit here and say that there is "this chance" and "that probability" at all. We just don't know.

you're underselling out talent evaluation of the draft. dumas and ollie miller ran themselves outta the league, but they had talent. ced was a great 2nd rounder, finley was a terrific selection in the 40's. as was wes person. majerle was a very good draft pick. horny was a great late round pick. the team that made it to the finals was:

barkley (trade)
kj (trade)
majerle (draft)
dumas (draft)
ainge (FA)
ced (draft)
TC (FA)
miller (draft)
west (trade)

what it looks like is that JC was very good at identifying and bringing in talent from multiple directions. he took advantage of other teams, free agency, and talent evaluation in the draft. thus far i see NONE of that in this ownership/FO:

gortat (trade)
dudley (trade)
hedo (trade)
childress (FA)
lopez (draft)
brooks (trade)
warrick (FA)
clark (draft)


that's a whole lotta fech with the exception of duds and gortat.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This.


For those that haven't noticed, the Suns are pretty good at rebuilding quickly on the fly, and that's what they did this year again. Yes, they missed the playoffs, but they are a few players from making them again (like, a good mid-tier draft pick and a decent trade). Millsap anyone?

Heck of a lot better than being a bottom 5 team year after year getting good draft picks, only to lose them as free agents because the team has a losing culture. Players want to play in the big, sunny markets, yes. They also want to play for winning cultures and teams.

ugh, so you're satisfied with year after year playing in the 6 - 12 seed range? sorry, no way for me. i'd rather bottom out and at least each year have the illusion of "maybe this new high draft pick will be the one" feeling at the beginning of each year than the "i know we might make the playoffs this year, but we ain't doing nothing special" feeling we had this year and likely next if we don't trade nash. the good news to me? nash can't play forever and that means no matter what kind of bandaid sarver tries to put on this pig it's gonna suck. if he's replacing amares with hedo/warrick/childresses i can only guess what he's gonna bandaid over nash's loss with . . .

 

[Bufalay]

you're underselling out talent evaluation of the draft. dumas and ollie miller ran themselves outta the league, but they had talent. ced was a great 2nd rounder, finley was a terrific selection in the 40's. as was wes person. majerle was a very good draft pick. horny was a great late round pick. the team that made it to the finals was:

barkley (trade)
kj (trade)
majerle (draft)
dumas (draft)
ainge (FA)
ced (draft)
TC (FA)
miller (draft)
west (trade)

what it looks like is that JC was very good at identifying and bringing in talent from multiple directions. he took advantage of other teams, free agency, and talent evaluation in the draft. thus far i see NONE of that in this ownership/FO:

gortat (trade)
dudley (trade)
hedo (trade)
childress (FA)
lopez (draft)
brooks (trade)
warrick (FA)
clark (draft)


that's a whole lotta fech with the exception of duds and gortat.

Where is Jerrod Mustaf?

 

[slinslin]

Not to mention Barkley was acquired by giving up a key player that they drafted.

 

[Cheesebeef]

here's the bottom line... you need to do BOTH to get ahead in this league. I mean, even if you look at the Celtics, the only way they were able to get KG and Allen is BECAUSE they had lottery picks/lottery talent to trade to get those guys.

but you can't improve your team when all you have is role players and increasingly aging former All-Stars. You need young talent to grow/young talent to make trades. we have pretty much none of that except for Gortat.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not to mention Barkley was acquired by giving up a key player that they drafted.

actually, three players they drafted (horny, perry, and lang-bang)

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Suns need to aquire assets in any way they can. Committing only to the draft is a mistake. Look at what they have right now. Channing Frye is a huge addition to this team and probably has very good trade value. That turned out to be an excellent FA pickup. Gortat in trade. The draft is a gamble. You have to gamble but you also need to hedge your bets.

 

[JCSunsfan]

here's the bottom line... you need to do BOTH to get ahead in this league. I mean, even if you look at the Celtics, the only way they were able to get KG and Allen is BECAUSE they had lottery picks/lottery talent to trade to get those guys.

but you can't improve your team when all you have is role players and increasingly aging former All-Stars. You need young talent to grow/young talent to make trades. we have pretty much none of that except for Gortat.

Frye seems to be underappreciated. He really turned it on. He is a legit NBA starter now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Frye seems to be underappreciated. He really turned it on. He is a legit NBA starter now.

he's a decent starter but he's nowhere near the pantheon of All-Star PFs and he's not young either, thus he can't really be a centerpiece of anything trying to better the team in a trade IMO. he's a good role player, but as a PF he's not special.

Gortat IS somewhat special because there is such a premium put on C in this league and he is just that... a legit C.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Channing Frye is a huge addition to this team and probably has very good trade value.

Frye is a very good role playing PF, but that's really about it. i mean, he's probably about the 16th best PF in the game. Not really sure what that type of player can get you in a trade. Now, if you had a lottery pick and coupled him with Frye, maybe you'd have something, but him alone, IMO, wouldn't be able to... i mean, what do you think his value is? i have a hard time thinking about what we could get for him.

really, this team is such a disaster right now IMO. it's a team of old guys a couple of VERY good role players (Frye/Duds) and a legit C... that doesn't add up to a whole hell of a lot looking into the future.