How long until the Suns are back in the playoffs?

PDXChris

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Portland is no top team this year without Roy.

When they were their top players were Oden, Roy, Aldridge, Batum, Miller plus they had Batum and Fernandez.

Chicago - Rose, Noah, Deng (plus Boozer)
Orlando - Howard, Nelson (plus JRich/Turk)
Miami - Wade (plus Shaq or Lebron/Bosh)
Lakers - Kobe, Bynum (plus Odom/Gasol)
Spurs - Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Hill, Blair
Oklahoma - Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka and before Green and also Aldrich etc
Denver - used to be Melo and Nene (plus Billups/Iverson)
New Orleans - Paul, West (plus Okafor)
Atlanta - Horford, Smith, Williams (plus Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford)
Boston - Pierce, Rondo (traded Jefferson for Garnett, traded #5 pick for Allen, traded Perkins for Green)
Dallas - Nowitzki, Beaubois and lots of luxury tax

What do we see here? They are all built around their own draft picks, no exception.

The only exception might have been that Detroit Pistons team that only had Tayshaun Prince but that team defied all odds anyway look where trying to redo that strategy has got the Pistons now.

Bulls didn't draft Deng, Phoenix did. :)
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Frye seems to be underappreciated. He really turned it on. He is a legit NBA starter now.

frye's become a surprisingly good player. i don't know about "legit starter." particularly for his position. he's still a subpar rebounder and he still doesn't effectively use his size offensively. imo he's still a perfect third big off the bench.
 

overseascardfan

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I think that PHX has some pieces in their prime:
Gortat
Frye
Dudley
Brooks (needs to be re-signed)

We need to trade Nash and get a couple of pieces including a draft pick and start a new era. Looking at some of the teams that have made inquiries on a few can offer what we would want:

TOR - A package of Ed Davis, Jerryd Bayless and future pick would be enticing.

ATL - Josh Smith and a couple of 1st rounders

HOU - Jordan Hill or Patrick Patterson, Buddinger & a 1st rounder

If we end up with 2 picks in this draft I would suggest BPA with our pick and a back up C with the other, possibilities include:

Jordan Williams
Markieff Morris
JaJuan Johnson
Keith Benson
Vernon Macklin
Greg Smith

With the right moves and player development, I say 2013 we can make playoff run.
 

SirStefan32

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Frye is a very good role playing PF, but that's really about it. i mean, he's probably about the 16th best PF in the game. Not really sure what that type of player can get you in a trade. Now, if you had a lottery pick and coupled him with Frye, maybe you'd have something, but him alone, IMO, wouldn't be able to... i mean, what do you think his value is? i have a hard time thinking about what we could get for him.

really, this team is such a disaster right now IMO. it's a team of old guys a couple of VERY good role players (Frye/Duds) and a legit C... that doesn't add up to a whole hell of a lot looking into the future.


I think Frye is good enough to have some positive trade value. At the very least, he doesn't have negative trade value. I really like his game now, he definitely improved several aspect of his game in the last year.

Having said all that, I don't think he is our solution for that PF spot.
I like him as a back-up, and I also think he could bring some value in a potential trade.

If Phoenix was able to acquire star PG and SG, perhaps Frye would be ok as a starting PF, but my preference would be a physical, low-post scoring PF.
For example, Chris Paul/ Jason Richardson/Dudley/Frye/Gortat lineup MAY work, but I would much rather have a team centered around a PF.
 

Cheesebeef

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If Phoenix was able to acquire star PG and SG, perhaps Frye would be ok as a starting PF, but my preference would be a physical, low-post scoring PF.
For example, Chris Paul/ Jason Richardson/Dudley/Frye/Gortat lineup MAY work

we've already seen the arguably better version of that team... they're called the New Orleans Hornets.

the team would be a perennial 50 win, one and done team.
 

Errntknght

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and the Lakers didn't draft Kobe, the Hornets did

Come on guys - whenever a team trades a draft pick the original owner of the draft pick makes the pick and sends the player, which the receiving team selected. Thats just a technicality.

Now if a team makes the selection and gets the player (regardless who owned the pick originally) and then trades the player on draft day with no prior arrangement having been made, then thats a trade.
 

Suns_fan69

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Portland is no top team this year without Roy.

I don't know if you've been watching Portland this year but Roy, for the better part of the year, was actually more of a hindrance to the team than a help. He's been better recently by accepting his reduced minutes and role better than before. I would say that Portland has been a top team this year in spite of Roy.

Unless you are suggesting that his role in previous years fundamentally affected the makeup and performance of this years team. You might have something there but I don't know how to even prove that either way.

Chicago - Rose, Noah, Deng (plus Boozer)
Orlando - Howard, Nelson (plus JRich/Turk)
Miami - Wade (plus Shaq or Lebron/Bosh)
Lakers - Kobe, Bynum (plus Odom/Gasol)
Spurs - Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Hill, Blair
Oklahoma - Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka and before Green and also Aldrich etc
Denver - used to be Melo and Nene (plus Billups/Iverson)
New Orleans - Paul, West (plus Okafor)
Atlanta - Horford, Smith, Williams (plus Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford)
Boston - Pierce, Rondo (traded Jefferson for Garnett, traded #5 pick for Allen, traded Perkins for Green)
Dallas - Nowitzki, Beaubois and lots of luxury tax

What do we see here? They are all built around their own draft picks, no exception..

I'm confused by this list. You seem to have a mishmash of current and former players on some of those teams. A cynic would say that you tailored that list to your argument (Beaubois as a key piece of that Dallas team... really?).

Also I'd say there's realistically only 4, maybe 5 true contenders on that list. Everyone else doesn't really have a shot at the title, barring some bizarre circumstances.

cheesebeef said:
here's the bottom line... you need to do BOTH to get ahead in this league. I mean, even if you look at the Celtics, the only way they were able to get KG and Allen is BECAUSE they had lottery picks/lottery talent to trade to get those guys.

JCSunsFan said:
The Suns need to aquire assets in any way they can. Committing only to the draft is a mistake. Look at what they have right now. Channing Frye is a huge addition to this team and probably has very good trade value. That turned out to be an excellent FA pickup. Gortat in trade. The draft is a gamble. You have to gamble but you also need to hedge your bets.

Absolutely agree on both of those takes; especially the bit about acquiring assets in any way. Regardless of whether it's players, draft picks - lottery or otherwise, cap friendly contracts or cap space itself, what matters is having options.
 

tobiazz

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but you can't improve your team when all you have is role players and increasingly aging former All-Stars. You need young talent to grow/young talent to make trades. we have pretty much none of that except for Gortat.

The only other way would be to have all players' contracts ending at the same time and pull a Heat, except:

1) None of us think players would choose to do that in Phoenix. (In Florida, I think the slightly below max contracts were offset by lower income tax.)

2) Even still, you probably need some young talent or picks in order to assist in sign and trades or getting rid of stray contracts, like the Heat did to get rid of Beasely.
 

Cheesebeef

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The only other way would be to have all players' contracts ending at the same time and pull a Heat, except:

1) None of us think players would choose to do that in Phoenix. (In Florida, I think the slightly below max contracts were offset by lower income tax.)

2) Even still, you probably need some young talent or picks in order to assist in sign and trades or getting rid of stray contracts, like the Heat did to get rid of Beasely.

3) we don't have any basketball people who players believe in... the Heat have Riley who's revered in the league.

4) we don't have a Dwayne Wade already on the roster to help entice those guys to come here.

we can't pull a Heat/Lakers... we don't have the resources, superstar players or basketball legends in the FO.

that's why I think the best way to go about this is hiring legit basketball people and trying to build the same way OKC, SA and even Chicago to a large have. It'll be a rough couple years no doubt, but this wasn't no picnic this year and we're gonna have nothing to show for it moving forward with a late lotto pick. that's the worst of both worlds.
 

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I think that PHX has some pieces in their prime:
I agree but...
Gortat= Legit starting 5
Frye= Backup 4 or 5
Dudley= borderline starting 3
Brooks= backup 1

Which means we definately still need a starter at PG/SG/PF....which isn't going to happen overnight. I'm ok with that,rather than reaching desperately to fill those spots with over-the-hill or aging talent just in order to get back into the playoffs next season.

Build it right and they will come. :)
 

JCSunsfan

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I agree but...
Gortat= Legit starting 5
Frye= Backup 4 or 5
Dudley= borderline starting 3
Brooks= backup 1

Which means we definately still need a starter at PG/SG/PF....which isn't going to happen overnight. I'm ok with that,rather than reaching desperately to fill those spots with over-the-hill or aging talent just in order to get back into the playoffs next season.

Build it right and they will come. :)

Frye is a starter if there are stars elsewhere
Brooks is a starter or needs to be traded
Dudley is not a starter - more of a sixth man
Gortat is a starter and could become the primary low post scorer
 

slinslin

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Frye is a starter if there are stars elsewhere
Brooks is a starter or needs to be traded
Dudley is not a starter - more of a sixth man
Gortat is a starter and could become the primary low post scorer

Gortat will turn 27 I am not sure how you figure that Gortat who has no real post moves as of yet it suddenly going to become a low post scorer...

Brooks is clearly not a starter.

He is not in the uppers two thirds of PGs and if you don't have one of the top PGs who are dime a dozen nowadays you better have a PG who has some size, can defend and has a reliable jumper when left open.

Brooks isn't that type of player.
 

Errntknght

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slin,
Gortat will turn 27 I am not sure how you figure that Gortat who has no real post moves as of yet it suddenly going to become a low post scorer...

It does happen this late with bigs... they don't develop a complete arsenal of shots but they hone a couple of them to the point they're a modest threat down low. Something on the order of a right jump hook and a baby left hook to counter with. I've seen guys develop an up and under move after a few years in the league. If we have a big man coach worth a hill of beans he has Gortat working on something along those lines now.
 

mojorizen7

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that's why I think the best way to go about this is hiring legit basketball people and trying to build the same way OKC, SA and even Chicago to a large have. It'll be a rough couple years no doubt, but this wasn't no picnic this year and we're gonna have nothing to show for it moving forward with a late lotto pick. that's the worst of both worlds.
:thumbup:
 

JCSunsfan

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slin,

It does happen this late with bigs... they don't develop a complete arsenal of shots but they hone a couple of them to the point they're a modest threat down low. Something on the order of a right jump hook and a baby left hook to counter with. I've seen guys develop an up and under move after a few years in the league. If we have a big man coach worth a hill of beans he has Gortat working on something along those lines now.

Yes. Bigs develop later, and Gortat has gotten fairly little playing time in Orlando. He is showing that he can score. I do think that he and Frye are a nice combo of skills. We must need more prolific scorers and athletes at the 2 and 3 positions.

Brooks has a starters mindset. If he can't start here, we need to move him.
 

Covert Rain

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Gortat will turn 27 I am not sure how you figure that Gortat who has no real post moves as of yet it suddenly going to become a low post scorer...

Brooks is clearly not a starter.

He is not in the uppers two thirds of PGs and if you don't have one of the top PGs who are dime a dozen nowadays you better have a PG who has some size, can defend and has a reliable jumper when left open.

Brooks isn't that type of player.

Gortat is a top 10 true center in this league even without being a dynamic post up player. Having said that, he has gotten better as the season progressed around the bucket. Also, you don't seem to be able to grasp that he wasn't really even playing. He is different from the standpoint that he was not getting 20 minutes a night to develop. There were some nights he didn't get off the bench in Orlando. He can improve.

Now if this team goes after a true Post up PF, that means you need Gortat even less around this rim other than to rebound and play defense. Both of which Gortat has proven he can do. This team needs a good center. They finally have one. Nuff said.

Agree with you on Brooks. He worries me. He at times is a decent PG IMO but I don't like his size and would be hesitant to make him our starting PG. However, that really depends on what surrounds him.

This team has alot of work to do in the offseason IMO.

My guess is that if the team trades Nash, it will be 3 years before this team not only makes the playoffs (which is not good enough) but is a force in the playoffs. This team will not build for the next 5 years hoping to make the playoffs. They will do a combination of drafting, signing FA and trading to get their sooner. They always do.
 
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Magnus

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What is the best we could get for trading Carter? Which teams would even want him?
 

slinslin

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Gortat is a top 10 true center in this league even without being a dynamic post up player.

That is extremely debatable..

Dwight Howard
Andrew Bogut
Joakim Noah
Andrew Bynum
Nene
Tim Duncan
Al Horford (though he would prefer to play PF)

Ok that is 7 centers absolutely unquestionably better than Gortat.

Brook Lopez
Chris Kaman
Marc Gasol
Javale McGee (quickly rising)
Greg Oden(easily in the top group when healthy)
DeMarcus Cousins
Emeka Okafor

I would have to say that this group of 7 is better than Gortat.

Samuel Dalembert
Tyson Chandler
Kendrick Perkins
Roy Hibbert
DeAndre Jordan (one of the most sought after free agents I would say, has enough potential to get in the top 7)
Marcin Gortat

I'd say Gortat is in the 15-21 range in terms of best centers and that is based on 3 months. So he is pretty much average. And that is no an unfair assessment. Saying Gortat is a top 10 center is absolutely pushing it. The best thing about Gortat is probably his contract but he is not a top center.
 
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jagu

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Man slin you dare put in Greg Oden? Why not include Patrick Ewing and Hakeem? If your going to put in guys who never play then Ewing and Hakeem belong in this list. Brook Lopez being better than Gortat is debatable. Not that Lopez isn't good but Gortat shoots better from the field, plays better defense, way better rebounder. Gortat might not be a key offensive player to take as many shots as Lopez but if you want a true center who can play D, then Brook Lopez is not what you want.

As for Bynum being in the TOP 10, yea when he is healthy he will probably make this list but he isn't a TOP 10 center in this league when his GS are like this:

07-08: 25
08-09: 50
09-10: 65
11-12: 46

I'd say Gortat is probably 11th or 12th best, the guy is a beast and has proven it.
 

slinslin

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Oden is unquestionable when healthy.

Dalembert is on the same level and has proven that same level over years. Gortat is only recently playing for 2 months on that level.

Okafor does the same things but is better defensively than Gortat also proven over years on better teams.

Gortat really only has 2 good month on a bad team to show. And even if you made a valid argument that Gortat is better than those 3 that still wouldn't even put him close to being considered top 10.
 

jagu

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The Suns weren't a bad team, they were the hottest team after the all-star break and looked on their way to the playoffs until the Frye and Nash injuries. You don't even watch the games and you keep on yapping. There's more to the NBA than +/-
 

slinslin

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The Suns weren't a bad team, they were the hottest team after the all-star break and looked on their way to the playoffs until the Frye and Nash injuries. You don't even watch the games and you keep on yapping. There's more to the NBA than +/-

You are just ridiculous claiming Gortat is a top 10 center or top 12 center. It isn't close to reality.

The Suns are 7-15 or something since the allstar game. I don't even want to know their record since Gortat is starting.

That is BAD no matter how you look at it.

Oh and if I was really nitpicking Yao Ming and Al Jefferson are obviously better too.
 
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