How many remaining coaches have to be fired before you believe Wiz has control ?

[RedStorm]

To those out there who are stressing out on this ?

Simple question with a followup of

How will you determine if Wiz actaully wanted to keep any of the ACs that aren't fired ?

It does not matter. How this team performs next year will tell. I do not care whom he keeps or not. It is not my job on the line and it really is none of my business.

 

[slanidrac16]

Heres my $.02. Keeping the AC's was a good idea, but only if Whis has COMPLETE say on who he wants and who he doesn't want. That being said , if Whis keeps all of them I would be shocked and skeptical. Firing all of them would be acceptable to me. It would show he definitely has a plan and that he indeed does have total say of who is on his staff.
I don't think it will be necessary to fire all the AC's. I personaly think he will keep Pendy because he might be innovative enough to implement schemes and a type of defense Whis invisions. I also believe he might keep Loney. That will all depend on how adaptive Loney might be to Whisenhunts theory. For instance Whis might want to go with zone blocking, power blocking or trap schemes. If Loney is stuck on his own technique, he will be gone and that could be said about all the assistants.
I guess we'll know pretty soon.

 

[Skkorpion]

Mike Ditka was forced to keep Buddy Ryan as his DC in Chicago. Worked out okay, didn't it?

 

[Stout]

For example the Steelers havn't fired their staff and Miami just reupped the DC prior to hiring a new HC. I also didn't hear of Atlanta or Oakland firing their staff yet.

So out of the teams who were looking for a new HC, none have fired their existing staff.

That kind of disproves your 'almost always' comment

I'll start with this. No, it disproves nothing, because you only took half the quote. I said 'until this season'. Name me the major ones before this season. About a handful, I'd wager. Ever. Some teams now seem to be going this route, and it's probably fiscal policy in their case (don't ask me what Miami is doing!). I don't know if other teams are pushing these guys, but it feels like the FO here is pushing Pendy. Note, I am not saying it is because they are being cheap. I think they're more than willing to pay to hire another guy. I think they feel Pendy is a hot coach. I don't necessarily agree.

So, no, you've been proven quite wrong in what you just tried to disprove of mine. Read and react to a whole quote, and maybe you'll get it right next time.

 

[Stout]

Depends what you mean by first choice.

Given unlimited options I suspect there any number of guys he would prefer to have. Most of those are unavailable for one reason or another.

Would CP be his 1st choice from folks available ? I have no idea. I would guess that he would at least be on the list of possible candidates.

I just have a really hard time believing that a guy like Wiz who had many options would have signed up for a bad deal. I suspect RG has suggested that he look at CP, I would also suspect that Wiz would do that on the grounds he has nothing to lose.

It seems to me like RG is approaching this process from in a businesslike fashion. He isn't dumping the folks he considers to have potential and by doing that he incrases Wiz's options not decreases them.

So you willingly admit he probably wouldn't have Pendy as his definite numero uno if he wasn't already here? That's all I really need to know. It disturbs me that the team may be dictating this situation to Whiz. I would far rather he brought in his own guy than simply stick with the status quo. Our status quo has been pretty lousy, don't you think?

I love Whiz, and I think he's going to revolutionize our offense. I love the process our FO went through to sign him. I cannot stress that enough. Pendy may have success as a DC, and he may be able to be aggressive enough. Stress the 'may', because odds are at least even, if not worse, that he can't. I just don't want to take the chance. People are saying it isn't a big deal, if Pendy doens't work out, we can get someone else next year. That's all well and good, except that would mean we sucked this year...again. I'm not willing to gamble a playoff run by retaining an old coach. I think that's quite a reasonable stance.

 

[Stout]

Mike Ditka was forced to keep Buddy Ryan as his DC in Chicago. Worked out okay, didn't it?

Really? That's fascinating! (No, I'm not being sarcastic, Skkorp). I didn't know that. Do you have anything I could check out to read up on it?

 

[Stout]

Given that HCs, throughout the history of the league, almost always fail to hire the outgoing DC, and the idea that HCs like bringing in their guys, and of course the fact that Graves and staff like Pendy so much and that HE, not the HC, would make a decision along with the coach's input, all add up to one thing: Pendy wasn't simply Whiz's decision. I know, I know. You're going to cry foul and say we can't know that for sure. No, just like we can't know for sure that Billy Boy has meddled overmuch in the past, but we know it is the case. C'mon, Nidan. Do you seriously think Pendy would have been Whiz's first choice if he had been let go?[/QUOTE]

almost always is not always.

you can deduce, you can suspect - but you can't know it is the case.

As to your final question. Nidan doesn't know, I don't know... and neither do you.

.
All right, smart guy. In that case, we can't ever know that the Bidwills have ever been cheap in the past. We can deduce, we can suspect, but we can't know it ever was the case.

No, doesn't sound logical to me either. Some folks may want to stick their head in the sand, but I'm not choosing to do so. Graves made it crystal clear who had final say on ACs, and that is a fact. So, I guess we DO know, don't we?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I'll start with this. No, it disproves nothing, because you only took half the quote. I said 'until this season'. Name me the major ones before this season. About a handful, I'd wager. Ever. Some teams now seem to be going this route, and it's probably fiscal policy in their case (don't ask me what Miami is doing!). I don't know if other teams are pushing these guys, but it feels like the FO here is pushing Pendy. Note, I am not saying it is because they are being cheap. I think they're more than willing to pay to hire another guy. I think they feel Pendy is a hot coach. I don't necessarily agree.

So, no, you've been proven quite wrong in what you just tried to disprove of mine. Read and react to a whole quote, and maybe you'll get it right next time.

If I may interject: The "almost always" reference is yours as is the later "about a handful, I'd wager". It's for you to prove the validity of the assertion, not for Nidan to disprove. You can obfuscate, answer questions, with questions, but in basic rules of debate the onus is still on you to support your position with fact.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

.
All right, smart guy. In that case, we can't ever know that the Bidwills have ever been cheap in the past. We can deduce, we can suspect, but we can't know it ever was the case.

No, doesn't sound logical to me either. Some folks may want to stick their head in the sand, but I'm not choosing to do so. Graves made it crystal clear who had final say on ACs, and that is a fact. So, I guess we DO know, don't we?

Interesting. You were earlier saying that Nidan was not quoting your view in full. And yet here, because it doesn't serve your purpose, you ignore the mitigating point, which is that Graves' decisions were to be made in consultation with Whis, and references in news items saying that Whis would not be simply "forced" to accept the existing staff.

 

[kerouac9]

I think that there's a difference between keeping a coaching staff in place for the next guy to come in and review and expecting the new head coach to be happy with a large portion of the staff, which seems to be the case here.

BTW, nidan, your cases aren't really the same, since Cowher retired/resigned and Saban left of his own accord. Neither of those coaches were fired in disgrace because their teams were horrible and lost to the teams picking #1 overall three years running.

 

[Sandan]

So you willingly admit he probably wouldn't have Pendy as his definite numero uno if he wasn't already here? That's all I really need to know. It disturbs me that the team may be dictating this situation to Whiz. I would far rather he brought in his own guy than simply stick with the status quo. Our status quo has been pretty lousy, don't you think?

You did a 1 + 1 = 3 here.

I would have thought Wiz is much like any new CEO. He will look at who he has, who might be available and go with the best option he can make happen. The guy in place frequently has an advantage as he knows the personnel.

You went from CP isn't the #1 choice to the FO is dictating, that's a big leap. Particularly when the team has said the exact opposite. For I know he might be the top choice of those available.

Lets see what happens first, my point with this thread is that I doubt you will believe that your senario is untrue unless CP is fired.

All I'm saying is that retaining his rights gives the Wiz more options not less. Apparently all the other teams looking for a new HC are operating in the same fashion.

 

[Stout]

If I may interject: The "almost always" reference is yours as is the later "about a handful, I'd wager". It's for you to prove the validity of the assertion, not for Nidan to disprove. You can obfuscate, answer questions, with questions, but in basic rules of debate the onus is still on you to support your position with fact.

Actually, no, it isn't. My statement is an assertation of a lack of something; the opposite, the side who really needs to look up their facts, is the side that says the retention of ACs over the history of the NFL has been common. It has not been common, but I am willing to let people prove me wrong if they will.

 

[Stout]

Interesting. You were earlier saying that Nidan was not quoting your view in full. And yet here, because it doesn't serve your purpose, you ignore the mitigating point, which is that Graves' decisions were to be made in consultation with Whis, and references in news items saying that Whis would not be simply "forced" to accept the existing staff.

I'll address it now. I'm not saying that Graves will completely force him to keep Pendy, no. I'm saying he'll strongly influence him to do so and, in the long run, Graves has the final say, from his own mouth. So, yeah, if they end up at loggerheads on this issue, Graves would have the power to force Whiz to keep Pendy. I don't think that'll happen, but it might.

 

[Stout]

You did a 1 + 1 = 3 here.

I would have thought Wiz is much like any new CEO. He will look at who he has, who might be available and go with the best option he can make happen. The guy in place frequently has an advantage as he knows the personnel.

You went from CP isn't the #1 choice to the FO is dictating, that's a big leap. Particularly when the team has said the exact opposite. For I know he might be the top choice of those available.

Lets see what happens first, my point with this thread is that I doubt you will believe that your senario is untrue unless CP is fired.

All I'm saying is that retaining his rights gives the Wiz more options not less. Apparently all the other teams looking for a new HC are operating in the same fashion.

You're right. I will not believe that Graves didn't influence or bend Whiz's thoughts on the DC matter unless Pendy is out of here. Sure, you may think what I said is a big leap, but it's really only a small leap made out of what Graves said himself. He said he'd consult with the new HC, but that final decision rests with him. That's pretty straightforward.

We'll wait and see. I just keep responding to folks who want to give the team a pass on this. I'm not saying that retaining these guys was necessarily a bad move in itself, but I now fear the FO will feel strongly about keeping some of them on, especially Pendy, and that I do not like.

 

[Sandan]

What he actually said was that he and Wiz would evaluate the existing staff.

It seems like you are nitpicking here. They are likely to sit down together and jointly decide what to do. Sure RG has the final say on football matters, that is not the same as being a dictator.

Do you think Wiz would have come here if the situation was a dire as you think it is ?

 

[ajcardfan]

I heard Whisenhunt answer the question about assistant coaches twice today and both times he answered like he was driving the boat on the choice. So, I'm going to take him at his word for it.


I have to admit though, that, if Clancy stays, especially without an extension, there will always a bit of doubt as to just how much he really did want him.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Actually, no, it isn't. My statement is an assertation of a lack of something; the opposite, the side who really needs to look up their facts, is the side that says the retention of ACs over the history of the NFL has been common. It has not been common, but I am willing to let people prove me wrong if they will.

Ok... I get it.

You can say that the world is flat, and the moon is made of green cheese with no need to support the assertion. The onus is on me to prove the contrary. Sophistry!

 

[Duckjake]

What he actually said was that he and Wiz would evaluate the existing staff.

It seems like you are nitpicking here. They are likely to sit down together and jointly decide what to do. Sure RG has the final say on football matters, that is not the same as being a dictator.

Do you think Wiz would have come here if the situation was a dire as you think it is ?

You'd be amazed what people would do for $8 million dollars.

 

[Sandan]

Not when he had a number of other teams talking to him, not to mention he already turned the Raiders down last year.

The reports are that he wouldn't have had enough control

 

[Mulli]

Ok... I get it.

You can say that the world is flat, and the moon is made of green cheese with no need to support the assertion. The onus is on me to prove the contrary. Sophistry!

 

[Duckjake]

Not when he had a number of other teams talking to him, not to mention he already turned the Raiders down last year.

The reports are that he wouldn't have had enough control

You'd still be amazed at what people will do for $8 million.

Whisenhunt listened. When the Steelers took their time finding a replacement for Bill Cowher, Whisenhunt became concerned he might be shut out of a head coaching job.

 

[Stout]

Ok... I get it.

You can say that the world is flat, and the moon is made of green cheese with no need to support the assertion. The onus is on me to prove the contrary. Sophistry!

No, you obviously don't get it at all, or are being purposely obtuse. If I say that my dog didn't come home last ight and you claim he did, then you're going to have to prove it. To prove the negative is unneccesary and silly. Simple rules of reasonable doubt, too. A man doesn't have to prove he's not guilty--he has to be proven guilty. Sorry, unless you can prove that retaining the previous coaching staff has been historically the norm in the NFL, then there's no discussion. I don't have to look it up and prove it.

 

[Sandan]

How far back is it relevant to go Stout ?

It seems to me that what is far more relevant is what are NFL teams typicaly doing NOW, not 20-30 years ago.

And right now teams seem to be hanging on to the existing staff tp prevent them jumping ship if the new HC want's to keep them.

 

[Sandan]

And you might be amazed that possibly just possibly he liked the opportunity here as that ius certianly what he is saying.

I think the onus is on you naysayers to show where he is lying.

 

[Mulli]

The strangest issues are argued for days.