I don't get it.

[S_Nash]

http://tradevalue.theringer.com/?_ga=2.201806102.685008249.1545277488-amp-HEwBA5Dzo6PMkUKAP12lKQ


Why is the general consensus that Doncic is a greater rookie and has a higher ceiling than Ayton?

Ayton has come into the most disorganized franchise in the modern era, with no PG, a rookie head coach, 2 ex locker room cancers (one of which was supposed to be his mentor) and put up identical numbers to Anthony Davis in his rookie year.

Doncic has one of the top 3 coaches in the league tutoring him, and basically has the run of the team.

And Wendall Carter Jr?!?!

What am I missing?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Doncic is a perimeter oriented player with some flash to his game. Combine that with him being on a team where his contributions are helping lead to wins and it is understandable why he gets so much attention. If he was on a 8-24 team right now he would certainly lose some of his appeal.

 

[SirStefan32]

Doncic is really good. Kid can flat-out play, he is incredibly smart, has an extremely advanced game for his age, has a little bit of flash and style to his game, looks kind of dorky, gets excited over everything, and he is helping his team win. Right now, he is a better player than Ayton. Everyone who isn't consumed by some irrational dislike of white European players knew that was the case. Luka is a seasoned pro at the age of 19. There was never a chance in hell that Ayton was going to be better than Luka this year. Outside the few homers, everyone knew this. Suns drafted Ayton for what he is going to be in a couple of years; not for what he is now. While one of them may end up being a better player, neither team is gonna be disappointed with their choice.

I am a huge Luka fan, but I'd pick Ayton every single time if I had to redo the draft 50 times. I am happy with Ayton. Let the media talk about Luka. It may motivate Ayton.

 

[gimpy]

Where do you get that Doncic is a better player than Ayton right now?

Is it a numbers/stats thing, or just your opinion, or?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Where do you get that Doncic is a better player than Ayton right now?

Is it a numbers/stats thing, or just your opinion, or?

Just looking at basic stats, I'd give the edge to Ayton but I don't know about advanced stats. And I don't watch Dallas enough to know how far beyond the stats Luka's impact goes so I have no idea which player is really better right now. But I am annoyed that whenever Ayton's name comes up, the media always seems to jump straight to his shortcomings whereas they seem to only focus on Doncic's great moments.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Just looking at basic stats, I'd give the edge to Ayton but I don't know about advanced stats. And I don't watch Dallas enough to know how far beyond the stats Luka's impact goes so I have no idea which player is really better right now. But I am annoyed that whenever Ayton's name comes up, the media always seems to jump straight to his shortcomings whereas they seem to only focus on Doncic's great moments.

In fairness Ayton has had some impressive numbers but a lot of those were in lopsided losses and he hasn’t really had “great moments” like when Doncic went on an 11 point run singlehandedly. But great moments do not a great career make and I think both players will have terrific careers but we will likely greatly value Ayton more if he reaches the peak of his potential.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In fairness Ayton has had some impressive numbers but a lot of those were in lopsided losses and he hasn’t really had “great moments” like when Doncic went on an 11 point run singlehandedly. But great moments do not a great career make and I think both players will have terrific careers but we will likely greatly value Ayton more if he reaches the peak of his potential.

That was an incredible sequence, no denying, and it wasn't just incredible "for a rookie". But that highlights what I'm talking about. I'm confident that if Ayton had done something similar somebody would have also pointed out how he had 3 turnovers to just 1 assist and shot 7 for 17 in the game.

Luka deserves his attention and praise, I just don't think Ayton is getting the positive attention he deserves. Embiid was the talk of the league playing just 31 games on a 28 win team so I don't think it's just because Deandre is playing on a bad team.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

If we continue to see the effort that Ayton is starting to give, consistently, I think we'll see that RoY race tighten up a lot more down the stretch. He's starting to look more comfortable out there, and actually communicating with Booker, which wasn't always there prior to that reported shouting match between them in the locker room a week or two back.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If we continue to see the effort that Ayton is starting to give, consistently, I think we'll see that RoY race tighten up a lot more down the stretch. He's starting to look more comfortable out there, and actually communicating with Booker, which wasn't always there prior to that reported shouting match between them in the locker room a week or two back.

I agree with this. Seems every time we play a team for the first time their broadcasters are surprised at what Ayton can do. I think they just haven’t looked at him much. As more of them see him. And the suns win. If he keeps giving effort and getting better. His ROY candidacy will start snowballing.

 

[Proximo]

That list is stupid.

Jayson Tatum at 9?

Oladipo at 13?

SGA at 18 based on what? That is just stupid. He is almost as overrated as luka. Dude has a 13 per and he is declaring him future 2nd team nba.

Luka at 5? Calling him a future MVP, based on this inefficient season he is having. Give me a break.

This list is so obviously based on his feelings for a player and not their actual performance.

Anybody that actually thinks Wendell carter or sga has a higher trade value than deandre should not be listened to.

 

[Raindog]

It is stupid... because Bill Simmons is stupid. And the Doncic over hype train is stupid. Doncic is having a creditable rookie year, and that's about it. He isn't "transforming" the league, he isn't blowing anyone away, and he's not the second coming of Bird, he's not the white Magic, nor the Euro Lebron, or anything else idiots like Simmons are blathering on about.

He has looked more polished then most of the other rookies because he's been playing against more mature competition for the last three years in Europe and internationally. There is no reason to predict he is either going to be an MVP level talent, nor a surefire HOFer, nor any other superlative at this point. All he has done so far is proven that he was legitimately worthy of being a high draft pick this year... kudos for that, but let's be real.

 

[Takeo]

http://tradevalue.theringer.com/?_ga=2.201806102.685008249.1545277488-amp-HEwBA5Dzo6PMkUKAP12lKQ


Why is the general consensus that Doncic is a greater rookie and has a higher ceiling than Ayton?

Ayton has come into the most disorganized franchise in the modern era, with no PG, a rookie head coach, 2 ex locker room cancers (one of which was supposed to be his mentor) and put up identical numbers to Anthony Davis in his rookie year.

Doncic has one of the top 3 coaches in the league tutoring him, and basically has the run of the team.

And Wendall Carter Jr?!?!

What am I missing?

The fact you have to couch your argument for Ayton with all that circumstantial rhetoric is telling. Fact is - Doncic looks like a seasoned vet, arguably the best player on his team, and is already impacting games on a consistent basis. Ayton has higher upside but he’s a work in progress. Doncic is the “greater” rookie without much debate.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Where do you get that Doncic is a better player than Ayton right now?

Is it a numbers/stats thing, or just your opinion, or?

Its obviously possible ayton becomes better but right now its clear, just watch a Dallas game.

Doncic creates shots, sets up teamates, plays the game like a veteran, hits clutch shots, and rebounds. Hes got all the moves. Ayton looks scared to shoot an open elbow jump shot.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Honestly, if you gave Holmes as many all-oops and pick and rolls as ayton and as many minutes, he would average just as many points with mire rebounds and significantly better defense.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Honestly, if you gave Holmes as many all-oops and pick and rolls as ayton and as many minutes, he would average just as many points with mire rebounds and significantly better defense.

I don't buy that for a second.

 

[1tinsoldier]

yes, NashDD, both of your posts are accurate.

but my agreeing that Holmes would have similar stats is more a credit to Holmes than shade on Ayton.
that's why i've been saying they both deserve more playing time and should play together some.

Holmes could be starting on another team.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

yes, NashDD, both of your posts are accurate.

but my agreeing that Holmes would have similar stats is more a credit to Holmes than shade on Ayton.
that's why i've been saying they both deserve more playing time and should play together some.

Holmes could be starting on another team.

Yeah i guess all im saying is 90% of aytons points are just point blank alley oops or little push shots at the rim all of which Holmes can do with basically zero offensive moves. But yeah im not hating on Ayton his ceiling is obviously way higher on the offensive side.

Holmes really is a GREAT player. The weird part is it seems like he blocks 3 shots a quarter then i look at the box score and he has like 1 or 2 blks for the whole game...its really weird

 

[1tinsoldier]

again, i agree. Holmes is more impactful on the floor than his stats reflect.
his only problem starting as center for a team would be that he's a little undersized to guard some of the big dogs in the league.

i'll go as far as to say the resurgence of the Suns started with Holmes setting the right example

 

[SirStefan32]

Its obviously possible ayton becomes better but right now its clear, just watch a Dallas game.

Doncic creates shots, sets up teamates, plays the game like a veteran, hits clutch shots, and rebounds. Hes got all the moves. Ayton looks scared to shoot an open elbow jump shot.

Yeah, I don't understand how anyone who has watched a couple of games can't see the obvious difference between Ayton and Doncic right now. Doncic looks like a seasoned pro (which he is, to some degree) out there. He is clearly the better player right now. Doncic is closer to Booker than Ayton is to Doncic right now. I suspect that gap is gonna close quite a bit, and Ayton may overtake him, but right now, it's not even close.

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't buy that for a second.

Yeah, I don't either. Holmes is an extremely good energy guy who goes up against the bench players. Ayton is an extremely skilled player.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Yeah, I don't either. Holmes is an extremely good energy guy who goes up against the bench players. Ayton is an extremely skilled player.

An “energy guy” that rebounds better, blocks more shots, and plays better defense? Id even argue around the rim Holmes is more effective on offense...

Aytons a rook so im not trying to be negative but to say Ayton is blatantly better than Holmes right now i think were lieing to ourselves. Ayton can hit an elbow jump shot but thats about all i can think of that he clearly does better.

Like the tin man up there said - testament to Holmes not necessarily ripping Ayton

 

[AzStevenCal]

An “energy guy” that rebounds better, blocks more shots, and plays better defense? Id even argue around the rim Holmes is more effective on offense...

Aytons a rook so im not trying to be negative but to say Ayton is blatantly better than Holmes right now i think were lieing to ourselves. Ayton can hit an elbow jump shot but thats about all i can think of that he clearly does better.

Like the tin man up there said - testament to Holmes not necessarily ripping Ayton

I don't think he rebounds better at all, I've watched him give up a lot of defensive boards. He is a better offensive rebounder, is more of a shot blocker and seems to have a better grasp on when to help and when to stay home. He slams almost everything so he might look like a better inside player but he's not drawing the defensive attention that Ayton does either and he gets more time playing against the second team than Deandre does. So, all told, maybe the gap between them isn't huge but given that Holmes is 5 years older than him, I'm confident that gap will continue to grow.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Honestly, if you gave Holmes as many all-oops and pick and rolls as ayton and as many minutes, he would average just as many points with mire rebounds and significantly better defense.

Well, this just isn’t true.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think he rebounds better at all, I've watched him give up a lot of defensive boards. He is a better offensive rebounder, is more of a shot blocker and seems to have a better grasp on when to help and when to stay home. He slams almost everything so he might look like a better inside player but he's not drawing the defensive attention that Ayton does either and he gets more time playing against the second team than Deandre does. So, all told, maybe the gap between them isn't huge but given that Holmes is 5 years older than him, I'm confident that gap will continue to grow.

Agree with all of this.

 

[slinslin]

Doncic is a perimeter oriented player with some flash to his game. Combine that with him being on a team where his contributions are helping lead to wins and it is understandable why he gets so much attention. If he was on a 8-24 team right now he would certainly lose some of his appeal.

The Mavs have actually been better with Doncic off the floor.

They have won because they had one of the easiest schedules in the league and good bench performances.

Ayton is absolutely destroying Doncic in terms of advanced stats.