I say Pass on Thomas!

redheat

A real American hero
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Posts
921
Reaction score
218
I know it is a great need for us but if Grimm is so great, why not get a T in the 2nd or 3rd with a mean streak and have him coached up. Even if we do get Thomas, it's not likely he will start right away and if he does he will struggle like any rookie, especially at that position.

This gives us an opportunity to get a playmaker that you cant find in later rounds.

Peterson
Adams
Branch
Landry
 

Skkorpion

Grey haired old Bird
LEGACY MEMBER
Supporting Member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Posts
11,026
Reaction score
5
Location
Sun City, AZ
Why do players have to have a mean streak to be any good? Anthony Munoz was the best OT I ever saw and he did not play "mean." Neither did Art Shell. Nor did many others whose names escape me now.

Not getting on your case redheat but wasn't Deuce Lutui pretty good as a rookie? The case could be made he should have started from game 1.

What makes you so sure Thomas would struggle as a starter?
 

Zeno

Ancient
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
15,589
Reaction score
5,436
Location
Fort Myers
I know it is a great need for us but if Grimm is so great, why not get a T in the 2nd or 3rd with a mean streak and have him coached up. Even if we do get Thomas, it's not likely he will start right away and if he does he will struggle like any rookie, especially at that position.

As has been pointed out Grimm isn't great, he's a good coach, not great. He'll improve the run blocking but if a player isn't a good pass blocker now he likely never will be under Grimm.
 

Second Deck

Registered
Joined
Jul 1, 2002
Posts
938
Reaction score
0
I doubt if Thomas will be there when we draft/ If he is I think we have to jump on him. I think he is much more polished than Gallery was. We have to be able to do a better job protecting our QB. I must say if AP is there at 5 it will be tempting but since we have Edge and it has been pretty apparent that OL has been our problem for some time.
 

Garthshort

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Posts
9,507
Reaction score
5,785
Location
Scarsdale, NY
State of the OL

Remember the improvement (running and passing) that the OL showed in the final seven games, last year. That was after the line was revamped and had some time playing together. It has been said that the better OL's improve as they play together over time. As for Thomas not being able to start the season, Ferguson (Jets) and McNeill (Chargers) did, so it is possible. I doubt that we "pass" on him, but someone on the Cards board, like Peterson or Adams, might be rated ahead of Thomas and might be available at #5.
 

cardsfanmd

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Posts
13,966
Reaction score
4,156
Location
annapolis, md
I know it is a great need for us but if Grimm is so great, why not get a T in the 2nd or 3rd with a mean streak and have him coached up. Even if we do get Thomas, it's not likely he will start right away and if he does he will struggle like any rookie, especially at that position.

This gives us an opportunity to get a playmaker that you cant find in later rounds.

Peterson
Adams
Branch
Landry
I like your style buddy.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
When you say, pick up a tackle in the second round, who are you referring to? Ugoh? Free? Ryan Harris? Marten? Frye? (Chances that Staley or Blalock would be available for us to pick at #38 would be at best "iffy.")

To put things in perspective. Russ Grimm is supposed to be a very good line coach and has developed no-names into pretty good offensive linemen in the past.

Since he's a mere mortal, however, no doubt there were also Steeler O-line prospects we never heard about who whiffed.

My point: When you bring in a more talented player with an established past body of work, the more predictable his likelihood of success and more control Grimm & Co. have over the situation. As the established talent-level goes down, the more iffy things tend to be.

The reason the draft is more art than science is that you're dealing mainly with percentages - there are no guarantees a high-profile guy will make it or a low-profile guy won't - just the odds as each scout sees it.

If I'm representing a team who feels fixing the offensive line is a major and long neglected priority, I'd be inclined to play the percentages and draft Thomas if he's still there.
 

SuperSpck

ASFN Addict
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Posts
7,977
Reaction score
15
Location
Iowa
I think he is much more polished than Gallery was.

Into the draft, Gallery was considered a can't miss, safe bet prospect. I was lobbying hard for him during that draft and while I have no regrets about how the draft turned out I don't feel the least bit wrong about wanting Gallery, considering what we knew about his potential at the time.

His career's not over yet but there's a big shadow over him now. Because of his performance in the NFL I'm now a little worried about Thomas, which isn't fair to Thomas seeing as they're not the same people...
but asking a Cardinal fan to be logical is a steep request.

from USA Today's scouting report:


Analysis:

Positives...Prototype lineman, with outstanding speed, superb strength and a very solid build...Broad-chested with a big waist, muscular arms, thick thighs and calves and minimal body fat (16%)...Has big muscle development in his chest and arms, with a good bubble, big quadriceps and calves...Gets off the line well to quickly gain advantage, showing a sudden burst and light feet to immediately react to any movement as he comes off the snap...Combines muscle mass, strength and quickness to generate explosive blocking ability...Shows a powerful hand punch and can open his hips to move down the line when pulling...Able to cover defenders up with his size and long arms, showing good knee bend to gain leverage...Comes off the ball with a sudden burst, showing the leg drive, wide base and balance to stay on his feet and sustain blocks...Plays smart and with patience in pass protection, sinking his hips and sliding his feet properly to seal off the edge...Has outstanding ability to play in the open, as he smothers linebacker up to move on to the next defender...Looks fluid with above average feet adjustments when making contact...Has excellent body control for a player his size, showing great ease-of-movement to make blocks in space...Has the hand jolt needed to knock defenders off balance and consistently follows through to finish...Despite his size, he's nimble enough to pick up the blitz and stunts...Able to get into the second level, where he engulfs and flattens defenders while making contact in the open field...Stabs and punches with excellent hand position inside and shows explosion when initially engaging the defender...Can stun defenders with his hand jolt and is learning the proper technique of grabbing his opponent out of sight of the referee...Can shuffle, slide and stay square in pass protection, showing excellent recovery agility when beaten...Humble character who is highly motivated and called by the coaching staff, "the most respected athlete the program ever had."

Negatives...Needs to show more awareness of the offensive guard, as his teammate seems to get in the way when trying to pull for the outside rush...Patient, but will over-extend, compensating with his ability to recover and finish off his blocks...Because of his height and girth, he does not always sink his pads properly, but his quick feet more than compensates, allowing him to mirror the edge rushers.

Agility tests: 4.98 in the 40-yard dash...456-pound bench press...Bench presses 225 pounds 24 times... 620-pound squat...382-pound power clean...31-inch vertical jump...4.38 20-yard shuttle... 7.43 three-cone drill...32 1/4-inch arm length...9 1/4-inch hands...Ambidextrous...23/35 Wonderlic score.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2004draft/Gallery,Robert-OT-Iowa.htm
 

Crazy Canuck

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
10,077
Reaction score
0
Negatives...Needs to show more awareness of the offensive guard, as his teammate seems to get in the way when trying to pull for the outside rush...Patient, but will over-extend, compensating with his ability to recover and finish off his blocks...Because of his height and girth, he does not always sink his pads properly, but his quick feet more than compensates, allowing him to mirror the edge rushers.

And evidently, coaching hasn't helped Gallery with these shortcomings.
 

lobo

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
3,310
Reaction score
230
Location
Inverness, Il


If I'm representing a team who feels fixing the offensive line is a major and long neglected priority, I'd be inclined to play the percentages and draft Thomas if he's still there.
[/quote]


All oustanding points. The peanut gallery should keep these ponts in their data base. I feel the most important point is that an OL gets better and better the longer they play together. This has proven out over time. Start thinking of the Packers of the late 60's and go on from there. You willl count a whole load of great lines that stayed in tact. The next group was the Cowboy lines of the 70's.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,296
Reaction score
6,310
Location
Dallas, TX
how about the Big Reds line of the '70's, I think they were considered the
best in the league.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,612
Reaction score
30,325
Location
Gilbert, AZ

To put things in perspective. Russ Grimm is supposed to be a very good line coach and has developed no-names into pretty good offensive linemen in the past.

Who? I've pointed this out before, but 4 of the Steelers' starting 5 OL last season were first day picks, and three of them were 1st round picks. People keep asserting this, but no Steeler OL has gone on to success with another franchise, and the one we picked up turned out to stink.

:shrug:
 

Renz

An Army of One
Joined
May 10, 2003
Posts
13,078
Reaction score
2
Location
lat: 35.231 lon: -111.550
Who? I've pointed this out before, but 4 of the Steelers' starting 5 OL last season were first day picks, and three of them were 1st round picks. People keep asserting this, but no Steeler OL has gone on to success with another franchise, and the one we picked up turned out to stink.

:shrug:

That sounds like a compliment to Grimm, to me.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,612
Reaction score
30,325
Location
Gilbert, AZ
That sounds like a compliment to Grimm, to me.

It would, since you're an apologist for the front office. But an actually good OL coach takes players that are low-round picks or less highly regarded free agents and turns them into a dominant unit, as Alex Gibbs was able to do with the Broncos and Falcons and Matt Mauck did with the Chargers and--with less success--the Dolphins.

Maybe Grimm can do a great job with other teams' castoffs and second-day picks with the Arizona Cardinals, but no one should pretend like he's done it before.
 

Renz

An Army of One
Joined
May 10, 2003
Posts
13,078
Reaction score
2
Location
lat: 35.231 lon: -111.550
It would, since you're an apologist for the front office. But an actually good OL coach takes players that are low-round picks or less highly regarded free agents and turns them into a dominant unit, as Alex Gibbs was able to do with the Broncos and Falcons and Matt Mauck did with the Chargers and--with less success--the Dolphins.

Maybe Grimm can do a great job with other teams' castoffs and second-day picks with the Arizona Cardinals, but no one should pretend like he's done it before.

Well, players do well when Grimm coaches them and not as well when they leave. See what I'm driving at?

Maybe just once you could attempt to see beyond your own prejudices, but I realize that is probably asking too much.
 

Redsz

We do this together
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Posts
4,913
Reaction score
2,513
Grimm is a good coach. He isn't the best in the NFL, but he is good. He certainly had more than a hand in molding guys like Faneca and Marvel Smith.
 

SuperSpck

ASFN Addict
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Posts
7,977
Reaction score
15
Location
Iowa
Grimm is a good coach. He isn't the best in the NFL, but he is good. He certainly had more than a hand in molding guys like Faneca and Marvel Smith.

Coaches are molders and shapers of men, not creators.

Like Redsz says, if he can improve upon what the team has than it may be just enough to win all those games they just managed to lose.

They don't have to be perfect, they don't have to be the best, just better.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,612
Reaction score
30,325
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Well, players do well when Grimm coaches them and not as well when they leave. See what I'm driving at?

Maybe just once you could attempt to see beyond your own prejudices, but I realize that is probably asking too much.

Grimm coaches players "up" to their draft level. Sounds good enough. Then you look at our roster, and you see that we have a UDFA, two second round picks, a sixth-round pick, and a fifth-round pick. Um... somehow that doesn't seem as good as it used to.

Mostly, Pittsburgh's starters don't leave. The one that got away was Ross, who stunk as bad here (maybe worse) as he did in Pittsburgh. I'm not sure how you can really estimate how good an OL coach Grimm is, since he's been coaching first-day talent the entire time.

I guess you'd rather close your eyes and think positive thoughts while Leinart endures 40-plus sacks this season. So, that'll be fun.
 

lobo

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
3,310
Reaction score
230
Location
Inverness, Il
how about the Big Reds line of the '70's, I think they were considered the
best in the league.

They were certainly in the family photo. As were the Redskins, Raiders Dolphins etc. Again my point is they have to play as a unit to be successful.
I just watched a replay of one of last years nightmare games on the NFL channel. The beauty of Direct TV is as you know can be rewound. They were not too bad that game, but you can see how things fell apart. Got beat a number of times by 4 down linemen of the Chiefs. That should not happen.
 

Renz

An Army of One
Joined
May 10, 2003
Posts
13,078
Reaction score
2
Location
lat: 35.231 lon: -111.550
Grimm coaches players "up" to their draft level. Sounds good enough. Then you look at our roster, and you see that we have a UDFA, two second round picks, a sixth-round pick, and a fifth-round pick. Um... somehow that doesn't seem as good as it used to.

Mostly, Pittsburgh's starters don't leave. The one that got away was Ross, who stunk as bad here (maybe worse) as he did in Pittsburgh. I'm not sure how you can really estimate how good an OL coach Grimm is, since he's been coaching first-day talent the entire time.

I guess you'd rather close your eyes and think positive thoughts while Leinart endures 40-plus sacks this season. So, that'll be fun.
So basically, Grimm has done well with what was given him. That's quite an indictment. :rolleyes:

He's gotten results on the field in the form of a Super Bowl title, so I'm not quite ready to predict disaster.

If you want to close your eyes and think negative thoughts, be my guest.
 

vinnymac

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Posts
3,022
Reaction score
0
As has been pointed out Grimm isn't great, he's a good coach, not great. He'll improve the run blocking but if a player isn't a good pass blocker now he likely never will be under Grimm.

Why do you think Grimm cannot help someone with their pass blocking? It should be pointed out that Grimm sent 6 different lineman to the pro-bowl. He gets his lineman to play. Last time i checked you have to be a complete lineman to make it to the pro-bowl.
 

vinnymac

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Posts
3,022
Reaction score
0
[I guess you'd rather close your eyes and think positive thoughts while Leinart endures 40-plus sacks this season. So, that'll be fun./QUOTE]

Hey look the board has a fortune teller.

All of Jutiper moons has alligned with the sun and the Cardinals have drawn the death card with Russ Grimm.

Please take vacation or switch to decafe.
 

Treesquid PhD

Pardon my Engrish
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
4,844
Reaction score
105
Location
Gilbert
[I guess you'd rather close your eyes and think positive thoughts while Leinart endures 40-plus sacks this season. So, that'll be fun./QUOTE]

Hey look the board has a fortune teller.

All of Jutiper moons has alligned with the sun and the Cardinals have drawn the death card with Russ Grimm.

Please take vacation or switch to decafe.

Damn, I was hoping when the moons of Jupiter aligned, the Cardinals would win more than 6 games.
 

Skkorpion

Grey haired old Bird
LEGACY MEMBER
Supporting Member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Posts
11,026
Reaction score
5
Location
Sun City, AZ
Anybody remember Duval Love? Remember who we "stole" him from?
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
556,080
Posts
5,431,627
Members
6,329
Latest member
cardinals2025
Top