If the Suns have the #2 pick, who should they pick?

[JCSunsfan]

My point is that he is showing more promise at his position than any of our starting Center or Power Forward starting candidates. I'm curious if you disagree with that.

Yeah. I think I do. Len has the ability too, just not the consistency. Payton's consistency is Len-like so far. Clearly the Suns are done with Len. Chriss and Bender are still younger. They are going to get a little more rope.

I think Trae Young will be a much better pg, and we should draft him if he is the best player up.

 

[BC867]

Yeah. I think I do. Len has the ability too, just not the consistency. Payton's consistency is Len-like so far. Clearly the Suns are done with Len. Chriss and Bender are still younger. They are going to get a little more rope.

I think Trae Young will be a much better pg, and we should draft him if he is the best player up.

I see your point (pardon the pun), but a Point Guard's success is so much more dependent on the talent surrounding him than a Center. Clearly, the Suns have one dependable player covering the other positions and that's about it.

Len's performance at Center is much, much, much, much less dependent on the players around him. His potential has been much more in his hands than that of a Point Guard. And, as you said, Len has been very inconstant.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I see your point (pardon the pun), but a Point Guard's success is so much more dependent on the talent surrounding him than a Center. Clearly, the Suns have one dependable player covering the other positions and that's about it.

Len's performance at Center is much, much, much, much less dependent on the players around him. His potential has been much more in his hands than that of a Point Guard. And, as you said, Len has been very inconstant.

Hmm. That's interesting. My thought is that point guards are the LEAST dependent on players around them. Big men cannot be effective offensively if guards don't get them the ball, or get it to them in a good place or a timely manner.

Anyway. Not wanting to argue. That one is just a difference in perspective I guess.

Look at Elfrid's 3 point shooting percentage since the all-star break. Thats not on anyone but him.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01/splits/2018

 

[BC867]

Hmm. That's interesting. My thought is that point guards are the LEAST dependent on players around them. Big men cannot be effective offensively if guards don't get them the ball, or get it to them in a good place or a timely manner.

Anyway. Not wanting to argue. That one is just a difference in perspective I guess.

Look at Elfrid's 3 point shooting percentage since the all-star break. Thats not on anyone but him.

Isn't our greatest need at Center a defensive and rebounding presence? And isn't our greatest need at Point Guard a facilitator for the rest of the team, including Centers? If the rest of the team is marginal, as is the Suns, it is going to reduce the PG's assist stats.

Should our greatest evaluation of either Center or Point Guard be shooting, especially 22-23 feet from the basket? That, among other things, are what the PF and Wings are for. All three of them.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Isn't our greatest need at Center a defensive and rebounding presence? And isn't our greatest need at Point Guard a facilitator for the rest of the team, including Centers? If the rest of the team is marginal, as is the Suns, it is going to reduce the PG's assist stats.

Should our greatest evaluation of either Center or Point Guard be shooting, especially 22-23 feet from the basket? That, among other things, are what the PF and Wings are for. All three of them.

In today's NBA a point guard must shoot efficiently or at least honestly ( 33% or better) from the three. If it did not matter, Ricky Rubio would be a hot commodity in this league. He is a great passer and defender. But his poor outside shooting allows defenses to sag creating offensive problems for the rest of the team. They do the same thing with Payton.

I am not so much concerned about that for a big, but it helps there too. I like Bagley because of his energy, scoring ability, aggressiveness, and rebounding. But he is not a bad outside shooter when he takes the shot.

 

[Hoop Head]

Isn't our greatest need at Center a defensive and rebounding presence? And isn't our greatest need at Point Guard a facilitator for the rest of the team, including Centers? If the rest of the team is marginal, as is the Suns, it is going to reduce the PG's assist stats.

Should our greatest evaluation of either Center or Point Guard be shooting, especially 22-23 feet from the basket? That, among other things, are what the PF and Wings are for. All three of them.

When Payton was getting double doubles or getting more than 10 assists a game that didn't help the Suns win and it also didn't help anyone stand out. His assists were rather empty. You should see other players contributing more if the PG is a real difference maker in terms of playmaking but Payton's game didn't elevate anyone enough to notice.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

When Payton was getting double doubles or getting more than 10 assists a game that didn't help the Suns win and it also didn't help anyone stand out. His assists were rather empty. You should see other players contributing more if the PG is a real difference maker in terms of playmaking but Payton's game didn't elevate anyone enough to notice.

I think he is a good enough passer to elevate the play of others, but it is offset by his inability to shoot. The better you shoot the more the defense has to key in on you and the more they have to key in on you the easier it is to get open opportunities for your teammates.

 

[AzStevenCal]

My point is that he is showing more promise at his position than any of our starting Center or Power Forward starting candidates. I'm curious if you disagree with that.

I agree with JCS but I also agree with your point here. IMO he is a subpar starting point guard. BUT. He is a legit NBA point guard, even if he's closer to the bottom than the top. We have no one in the 4 and 5 conversation that we can say that about. And until we traded for Payton, we had no NBA level talent at the 1 either.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think he is a good enough passer to elevate the play of others, but it is offset by his inability to shoot. The better you shoot the more the defense has to key in on you and the more they have to key in on you the easier it is to get open opportunities for your teammates.

I agree but that's just one side of the ball. Despite his college reputation, he's even worse on D than he is on O. I'd live with his D if he was a real threat as a shooter but I don't look forward to paying him to be a liability on both ends. But he still might be our best option if have a chance to land Ayton.

 

[elindholm]

How good Payton is has nothing to do with whom the Suns should draft. They should take whoever they think is going to be the best player, period.

We go through this conversation every year or two. The Suns are a long way from being good again. Almost no one who is on the roster now will still be on the roster the next time the Suns are contenders. Booker, probably; Jackson, maybe; and that's most likely it. Get the best young talent you can and hope that they become a building block, and pay no attention to who happens to be wearing the uniform at the moment.

 

[Chaplin]

Elfrid Payton has not come close to proving his value as a starting pg. He fizzled in Orlando, and while we would love to see a turnaround, his play here has done more to confirm his reputation than repudiate it. He is well worth a second rounder in trade still. Just not sure if he is worth $8 million plus per year in a contract.

We need a point guard. We also need a center. We also need a pf. I don't mind taking Bagley because I think he is the second best player in this draft after Ayton. But if scouting believes that Young will be the better pro, by all means take him.

My order is Atyon, Bagley, Young. You all know what I think about Doncic.

Payton is still better than what we have at center and PF, so BC’s point remains valid.

 

[Chaplin]

When Payton was getting double doubles or getting more than 10 assists a game that didn't help the Suns win and it also didn't help anyone stand out. His assists were rather empty. You should see other players contributing more if the PG is a real difference maker in terms of playmaking but Payton's game didn't elevate anyone enough to notice.

Is that Patton’s fault or he fact he has mostly crap players around him? An assist is an assist.

 

[Chaplin]

How good Payton is has nothing to do with whom the Suns should draft. They should take whoever they think is going to be the best player, period.

That’s true but that only applies if you have Doncix higher than anyone else here. If Ayton and Bailey are on he board and we pick Doncic, will you be happy with that?

 

[elindholm]

That’s true but that only applies if you have Doncix higher than anyone else here.

No it doesn't. It's true regardless of who is on the board, at any point in the draft.

If Ayton and Bailey are on he board and we pick Doncic, will you be happy with that?

Of course not. Why even ask that question?

 

[SirStefan32]

When Payton was getting double doubles or getting more than 10 assists a game that didn't help the Suns win and it also didn't help anyone stand out. His assists were rather empty. You should see other players contributing more if the PG is a real difference maker in terms of playmaking but Payton's game didn't elevate anyone enough to notice.

You could put a 28 year old Steve Nash on this roster and he wouldn't help the Suns win.

 

[BC867]

Is that Patton’s fault or he fact he has mostly crap players around him? An assist is an assist.

Yes, the ol' chicken or the egg question. Can the Point Guard make the rest of the team better when three of the other four positions are sub-par by NBA standards.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Payton is still better than what we have at center and PF, so BC’s point remains valid.

Um. Ok. So Eldrid Payton’s presence on this team should influence who we draft? Really?

 

[Chaplin]

Um. Ok. So Eldrid Payton’s presence on this team should influence who we draft? Really?

Oh well you don’t get it.

 

[BC867]

Um. Ok. So Eldrid Payton’s presence on this team should influence who we draft? Really?

How about . . . so Alex Len's presence on this team as lead Center shouldn't?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Oh well you don’t get it.

I obviously don't. This conversation turned somewhere and I missed. Which point that BC made are we talking about now?

OK. I went back and reread everything. My contention is that Payton seems to be quite inconsistent, like Len is inconsistent. BC contends that his presence makes the pg position less urgent. I guess, but not by enough to matter. Certainly not enough to impact which player we choose in the draft. A pg who could shoot the three might open things up for everyone. Still, I want Ayton with the first pick if we get it, and Bagley with the second pick--just because I believe they will be the two best players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

How about . . . so Alex Len's presence on this team as lead Center shouldn't?

Now I am really confused.

 

[BC867]

Now I am really confused.

Why? How can you discuss drafting to replace Payton without considering drafting to replace Len instead?

Isn't that a valid consideration that will have to be faced?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Why? How can you discuss drafting to replace Payton without considering drafting to replace Len instead?

Isn't that a valid consideration that will have to be faced?

Sure. I am not even sure what we are arguing about. We need both. Draft the best player that fits the need. We have three huge needs, so it should not be a hard choice. It would be great to get a big and a pg out of this draft if we could.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Why? How can you discuss drafting to replace Payton without considering drafting to replace Len instead?

Isn't that a valid consideration that will have to be faced?

I kind of thought that we'd already replaced Len with Williams and it's a starting center we're most in need of? And then a starting power forward followed by a starting point guard. Top it off with a starting small forward that can make 3's at a fair clip (hopefully that will eventually be Josh). Oh and a head coach that understands defense and knows how to teach it. Also, one that is smart enough to not play Booker at the 1 very much and not play him at all if he's much less than 100%. Then, we just need 4 or 5 NBA level players to guard our bench for us.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I kind of thought that we'd already replaced Len with Williams and it's a starting center we're most in need of? And then a starting power forward followed by a starting point guard. Top it off with a starting small forward that can make 3's at a fair clip (hopefully that will eventually be Josh). Oh and a head coach that understands defense and knows how to teach it. Also, one that is smart enough to not play Booker at the 1 very much and not play him at all if he's much less than 100%. Then, we just need 4 or 5 NBA level players to guard our bench for us.

Ok. I think the needs are center, pg, pf in that order. But it’s just a quibble. Not sure it matters. Just take the best player that fills that need.