If we are going to trade Amare then I want to get Kobe back...

[D-Dogg]

I would be crushed if Kobe were traded to the Suns.

Though I'd love Amare on the Lakers, I couldn't function having to hear about Kobe and the Suns every damn day, and watching him torch the Lakers for 60-plus out of spite would kill me. I'd probably end up actually hating the Suns outright if this happened.

Thank goodness it isn't grounded in reality.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In dallas they're already calling dirk for kobe:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...l/mavs/stories/052907dnspotaylor.2a77db3.html

And guess what, that ain't better than amare for kobe, which is the best offer
any team could offer.

you put kobe on that team and they're the as close as anything you'll eve seer to the 1991-3 Bulls being reincarnated. Terry = a better Armstrong, Kobe is as close as this league is gonna get to Jordan, Howard = Pippen and either of thier centers = Cartwright. I guess they're still missing a Grant (which is a pretty big piece), but that team is MUCH better than this Lakers team.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Can we, for the love of God, stop this trade Amare crap?????

And Kobe is not coming here...

Even your fantasies need to make some sense.

Kobe may not be traded...

But me thinks we all might need to get used to the idea of Amare in another uniform.

I hate to say it but where there is smoke there is fire....

 

[D-Dogg]

Nice Bucher recap from that lakers site.

Heard Bucher on the radio this morning.

Interesting comments regarding recent news. Here is my summary

Bucher thinks that Kobe is making these inconsistent statements because he is trying to let the Lakers know that he wouldn't mind being traded. (I want West, I don't want West, etc.)

He compared this to Van Gundy matter in Houston. Neither side would come out and directly make a demand but people knew what was being said.

Cowheard asked, who is to blame? Kobe wanted Shaq out and look at it.

Bucher jumped in and defended Kobe immediately. He said that this is not true. The fact of the matter is that Kobe was looking to leave whether Shaq was here or not. He pointed out that Shaq wanted to leave and demanded a trade because the Lakers were not going to pay him. Shaq couldn't deal with the fact that Kobe was going to get more money and he wanted to be compensated. Buss did not want to have a similar situation to the Heat where two players were making a lot of money from the salary cap and that mess.

Cowheard asked Who is to blame?? After the Shaq trade, the Lakers have done nothing

Bucher seemed to think that it is obviously the front office and put some of the blame on Jerry and Jim Buss. Jerry Buss is to blame because when he got Jim Buss involved, it "muddled" up the organization and took some authority from Jerry West which led to his departure. Bucher noted that Jerry wanted Jim to become the patriarch of this organization.

Bucher continues that Jim really gets no credit for anything but thinks that he wants to create his own legacy. Kobe was here before Jim took over and he wants to get credit for finding Bynum. Jim will not get any credit relating to Kobe.

Bucher also made the comment that this started at the trade deadline when the Lakers refused to get Kidd. Kobe was pretty pissed off and he just felt that the team was not trying to win now. The Lakers just had to include Bynum but they didn't. Bucher agreed that it would not help the Lakers win but it would show that they are trying to win now.

Cowheard kept on saying that this situation is a mess and that no way the Lakers can trade the Kobe. Cowheard commented that starting over is not easy and compared it to the Bulls.

Bucher said that Chicago that is really the only team out there that can make a move. Bulls would include Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gorden, Thomas, Nocioni and some draft picks. If the Lakers tried to get Deng, it would probably not work.

Cowhead said that no way, the lakers wants Hinrich. LA is a star town and needs its star.

Bucher commented that he agrees but noted that Kobe is no KG. Kobe wants to win. KG is a little different. If changes are not made, Kobe will let his feelings and opinions come out.

Cowheard kept on saying this team is a mess. The Lakers had no trading pieces. Brown and Odom are injuried and will have no trade value. The only person with trade value is Kobe. Cowheard also noted that the West is getting very very difficult. Blazers and Sonics are young and will get better. Nuggets, Jazz and Warriors are young, etc. He noted that the Suns have all of their players and are young.

Bucher noted that by trading Kobe, maybe you can sell it to the fans that you are really rebuilding. You will not get equal value but you never do in this situation. He compared it to the AI and Shaq trades. When you trade a star, you just can't get equal value.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I can't really blame Kobe, everything he is saying about the current state of the Lakers' front office is pretty accurate. Jimmy Buss is a cokehead who has failed in everything he has tried in his life and Mitch Kupchak is an incompetent GM who through horrific drafts, questionable FA signings, and worse trades has gutted a perennial contender into first round playoff fodder. It's pretty obvious that all he wants top do is win (although his desire to win is probably is for his own selfish easons surrounding his legacy) and he won't do that with the Lakers in the shape they are currently in.

My biggest fear is the Lakers targeting and obtaining Bryan Colangelo. They obviously have the money and need for a new GM and you can bet that BC would love to come back to the Pacific to stick it to Sarver and co.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Hmmm... I was just thinking that what the suns really need is to get softer and weaker at the frontcourt. Diaw + Thomas as our PF/C?! I think not.

 

[elindholm]

The Lakers had no trading pieces.

I seem to recall making this point several times, but was always assured that my opinion was biased because I was a Hater. What's Cowheard's excuse?

 

[D-Dogg]

The Lakers had no trading pieces.

I seem to recall making this point several times, but was always assured that my opinion was biased because I was a Hater. What's Cowheard's excuse?

The difference is two of the three most viable trading pieces are both injured, having surgery and therefore untradeable. Bynum is the only other legit trading piece, and his salary is tiny.

Healthy, LO, Kwame and Bynum could be put into lots of interesting trade packages. Alone, Bynum, not so much. Which is why the Lakers are screwed at the moment.

And Cowheard is no voice of authority, by any stretch. Although he is one of the very few people at ESPN that I would actually listen to.

 

[azirish]

BC is a decent GM and much better than Kupcake, but his list of bad moves from drafting Big Jake, Casey, Zarko, to dumb moves like trading Bo and Big Jake for Brevin Knight and trading Knight to get White who they having to pay to get rid of; or using two draft picks just to save some luxury tax. Or clearing cap space and deciding to go for Q Richardson rather than paying less money to keep McDyess.

Personally, I'm not prepared to give BC a free ride on the JJ extension fiasco. Perhaps Sarver is mostly to blame, but it's the job of the GM to get the ovwer to make the right decisions.

 

[sharkman]

The difference is two of the three most viable trading pieces are both injured, having surgery and therefore untradeable. Bynum is the only other legit trading piece, and his salary is tiny.

Healthy, LO, Kwame and Bynum could be put into lots of interesting trade packages. Alone, Bynum, not so much. Which is why the Lakers are screwed at the moment.

Yet people still think the Suns would have to offer Amare to get Kevin Garnett, when the Lakers appear to be the only other viable suitor...and their package can't be that great.

 

[hsandhu]

I would be crushed if Kobe were traded to the Suns.

Though I'd love Amare on the Lakers, I couldn't function having to hear about Kobe and the Suns every damn day, and watching him torch the Lakers for 60-plus out of spite would kill me. I'd probably end up actually hating the Suns outright if this happened.

Thank goodness it isn't grounded in reality.

As a laker fan, do you think there is a better (realistic) deal than kobe for amare straight up? I'm assuming you would rather have amare than dirk.

 

[azirish]

Yet people still think the Suns would have to offer Amare to get Kevin Garnett, when the Lakers appear to be the only other viable suitor...and their package can't be that great.

The national media would dearly love for the Lakers to become a real contender. Get the Lakers into the finals and ratings go through the roof. The result is a weird kind of rose colored glasses when it comes to Laker deals.

 

[D-Dogg]

As a laker fan, do you think there is a better (realistic) deal than kobe for amare straight up? I'm assuming you would rather have amare than dirk.

I'd rather have Amare than a lot of players, including KG. And there aren't a lot of players I'd be ok with moving Kobe for. Amare is on that list, but not straight up. Dwight Howard is as well.

However, it would pain me to have Kobe in Phoenix.


Thing is, it isn't Kobe that's the problem in LA. It's the lack of talent and the inconsistent play of everyone else. Amare on the Lakers only makes them worse, if straight up for Kobe.

And it isn't a smart deal for Phx anyway, just getting smaller.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

BC is a decent GM and much better than Kupcake, but his list of bad moves from drafting Big Jake, Casey, Zarko, to dumb moves like trading Bo and Big Jake for Brevin Knight and trading Knight to get White who they having to pay to get rid of; or using two draft picks just to save some luxury tax. Or clearing cap space and deciding to go for Q Richardson rather than paying less money to keep McDyess.

Personally, I'm not prepared to give BC a free ride on the JJ extension fiasco. Perhaps Sarver is mostly to blame, but it's the job of the GM to get the ovwer to make the right decisions.

Name me one GM with a perfect track record.

BC might have made some mistakes, but his tams generally always made it into the playoffs and his draft picks more often than not turned out well and his creation is currently the second or third best team in the NBA. The guy is a good GM when compared to the other trainwrecks around the NBA that somehow still have jobs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

BC is a decent GM and much better than Kupcake, but his list of bad moves from drafting Big Jake, Casey, Zarko, to dumb moves like trading Bo and Big Jake for Brevin Knight and trading Knight to get White who they having to pay to get rid of; or using two draft picks just to save some luxury tax. Or clearing cap space and deciding to go for Q Richardson rather than paying less money to keep McDyess.

Personally, I'm not prepared to give BC a free ride on the JJ extension fiasco. Perhaps Sarver is mostly to blame, but it's the job of the GM to get the ovwer to make the right decisions.

so, you're basically saying that missing on late round 1st rounders kind of balances out drafting Olympians, MVPs, revamping the roster twice to produce back to back WCF teams on the heals of beings the 2nd worst team in the conference and THEN, with absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE (as usual) to back up your claim, you somehow put BC into part of the blame game for JJ when he and his father pushed and pushed to bridge the gap on that deal and all reports have said that Sarver absolutely wouldn't budge?

seriously, you're delighting me with every new post George and providing pretty good laughs for all. I can't wait to see what's next after this and your proclamations that MOST EXPERTS said Amare WOULDN'T PLAY this season and that there's a possibility that Hibbert would go above Al Horford or that Amare would somehow be actually bringing the ball up the court as a point-center and on and on and on.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd rather have Amare than a lot of players, including KG. And there aren't a lot of players I'd be ok with moving Kobe for. Amare is on that list, but not straight up. Dwight Howard is as well.

However, it would pain me to have Kobe in Phoenix.


Thing is, it isn't Kobe that's the problem in LA. It's the lack of talent and the inconsistent play of everyone else. Amare on the Lakers only makes them worse, if straight up for Kobe.

And it isn't a smart deal for Phx anyway, just getting smaller.

with every passing year, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the only way Kobe Bryant ends up being remembered as anything more than the text-book case of ego-drama-queen overcoming unbelievable talent is if he changes scenery.

i mean seriously - you have Shaq v. Kobe... The People of Colorado v. Kobe... Mom and Dad v. Kobe... Phil v. Kobe... Karl Malone v. Kobe... Kobe v. Lakers in Game 7 at Phoenix and against the Kings in 2004... now Kobe v. Lakers FO. Now, I'm not saying he's to blame for every one of these feuds we've seen, but he sure is constantly in them and taking things to the press, ad naseum. He's got to get out of LA if he ever expects to win and rehab his legacy because with the mess the Lakers are, they ain't looking at turning this ship around until he's at the very end of his prime.

 

[azirish]

Name me one GM with a perfect track record.

BC might have made some mistakes, but his tams generally always made it into the playoffs and his draft picks more often than not turned out well and his creation is currently the second or third best team in the NBA. The guy is a good GM when compared to the other trainwrecks around the NBA that somehow still have jobs.

He's better than average, but his most brilliant moves were due mostly to exceptionally dumb ones by other GM's: Denver takes Skita so Amare is still available at #9; Cuban refuses to pay Nash market value; the Spurs go cheap and trade away Barbosa; the Knicks decide to unload KT for Q Richardson and thre rights to a PG who can't play PG.

 

[D-Dogg]

with every passing year, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the only way Kobe Bryant ends up being remembered as anything more than the text-book case of ego-drama-queen overcoming unbelievable talent is if he changes scenery.

i mean seriously - you have Shaq v. Kobe... The People of Colorado v. Kobe... Mom and Dad v. Kobe... Phil v. Kobe... Karl Malone v. Kobe... now Kobe v. Lakers FO. Now, I'm not saying he's to blame for every one of these feuds we've seen, but he sure is constantly in them and taking things to the press, ad naseum. He's got to get out of LA if he ever expects to win and rehab his legacy because with the mess the Lakers are, they ain't looking at turning this ship around until he's at the very end of his prime.

Kobe v The World!!!


But what you are really waiting for is Kobe v. Kobe. That will be spectacular.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Also if I'm the Lakers, I get an idea of what could be had for Kobe. I might even pull the trigger on Nocioni, Deng, and Hinrich despite giving up the best player. This team ain't exactly chopped liver plus you could still tinker with the draft pick, Farmar, Turiaf, and Brown's expiring K if needs be.

PG - Hinrich/Farmar
SG - Deng/Evans
SF - Nocioni/Radmonovic
PF - Odom/Turiaf/Kwame
C - Bynum/Brown/Mihm

If the Lakers refuse to trade Bynum and plan on building their future around him, what's the point of trying to contend now with Bryant? They can't acquire the pieces now to contend w/out giving up Bynum so they are pretty much up a creek. It's Bynum vs. Bryant, whoever the Lakers value more will stay and the other will be gone.

 

[D-Dogg]

It's Bynum vs. Bryant, whoever the Lakers value more will stay and the other will be gone.

That could happen next year, yes...unless Bynum makes HUGE strides next season. Then they move forward with both of them.

To me though, Bynum seems to be soft..especially mentally...and I'm more afraid next year he'll be more exposed. I'd LOVE to be wrong on this one...

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's better than average, but his most brilliant moves were due mostly to exceptionally dumb ones by other GM's: Denver takes Skita so Amare is still available at #9; Cuban refuses to pay Nash market value; the Spurs go cheap and trade away Barbosa; the Knicks decide to unload KT for Q Richardson and thre rights to a PG who can't play PG.

this is incredibly off base IMO. A guy who has won 2 of the last three Executive of the Year awards and was probably deserving of it last year is "better than average"? Sorry, that's a GREAT GM. And you know what a GREAT GM does, he takes advantage of other's stupidity. That's part of the equation for greatness, recoginizing and attacking the weakness of others.

this is also incredible revisionist history, considering everyone under the Suns was SHOCKED at how much money we gave Nash. It was generally believed that we payed over market value for a guy who was on the wrong side of 30 and had a history of wearing down in the playoffs. But, hey, keep making things up. It makes for interesting theories to debunk.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Kobe v The World!!!


But what you are really waiting for is Kobe v. Kobe. That will be spectacular.

i'm not a fan of Kobe, but Kobe v. Kobe only ends one way - a noose around his neck and his feet dangling about the floor. I'd rather not see Kobe v. Kobe.

 

[hsandhu]

so, you're basically saying that missing on late round 1st rounders kind of balances out drafting Olympians, MVPs, revamping the roster twice to produce back to back WCF teams on the heals of beings the 2nd worst team in the conference and THEN, with absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE (as usual) to back up your claim, you somehow put BC into part of the blame game for JJ when he and his father pushed and pushed to bridge the gap on that deal and all reports have said that Sarver absolutely wouldn't budge?

seriously, you're delighting me with every new post George and providing pretty good laughs for all. I can't wait to see what's next after this and your proclamations that MOST EXPERTS said Amare WOULDN'T PLAY this season and that there's a possibility that Hibbert would go above Al Horford or that Amare would somehow be actually bringing the ball up the court as a point-center and on and on and on.

This is one place I disagree with you on. Yes, bc is now hitting his stride as a gm. But from 95-96 to 03-04, he generally had no idea what he was doing.

The no.1 rule of sports teams is you should be either
a) a team that is currently a top team in the league
b) a team with some kind of long term prospects of getting to a)

Teams that are stuck in that "no man's land" are in the worst possible shape.
That was the suns for that period, a team that was just there, and had no chance of doing anything, and worse seemed to have 0 prospects of doing anything in the future (especially with a 70 million dollar payroll).

Seriously, I'd much rather be a young losing team, like the hawks today, then a team like the suns were during that period (around 4-8 in playoff seeding, but almost 0 chance of getting out of the first round).

That was all BC's work. I remember that period, it got to the point around 2000-01 I really stopped following basketball, because the suns were going nowhere.

Before January '04, when BC did a hell of a job suckering isiah, this franchise was in almost a decade long rut. No question, he built things from then and has done a hell of job, but there were some pretty awful times.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is one place I disagree with you on. Yes, bc is now hitting his stride as a gm. But from 95-96 to 03-04, he generally had no idea what he was doing.

The no.1 rule of sports teams is you should be either
a) a team that is currently a top team in the league
b) a team with some kind of long term prospects of getting to a)

Teams that are stuck in that "no man's land" are in the worst possible shape.
That was the suns for that period, a team that was just there, and had no chance of doing anything, and worse seemed to have 0 prospects of doing anything in the future (especially with a 70 million dollar payroll).

Seriously, I'd much rather be a young losing team, like the hawks today, then a team like the suns were during that period (around 4-8 in playoff seeding, but almost 0 chance of getting out of the first round).

That was all BC's work. I remember that period, it got to the point around 2000-01 I really stopped following basketball, because the suns were going nowhere.

Before January '04, when BC did a hell of a job suckering isiah, this franchise was in almost a decade long rut. No question, he built things from then and has done a hell of job, but there were some pretty awful times.

i'm in no way defending BC's prior run (although I don't think it was horrendous before - but it was a lot of trial and error, especially due to the change in the CBA once the lockout destroyed our 2004-esque plan to add to what was already a 56 win team), prior to the 2004 season but to besmirch his success afterward is beyond stupid (not directed at you hsandu).

but even that being said, BC turned around an aging Barkley Suns squad in 1996, had one downish year, but then within a year, spun that team into a 56 win team in 1997 with Kidd and Dice which was set up better than any other team going into the next off-season (where everyone and their mothers were FA) which we were supposed to clean up in, but then there was the lockout and rule changes and everything went to complete and utter crap - and the panic moves made after that was what sent us into a 6 year funk - and there's no doubt, I agree with you - that was a six year funk. But, I do believe that the lockout and ensuing changes to the CBA that was first and foremost to blame for that. Even then, they had a good plan in place, but once that plan got f'ed up, Brian definitely panicked like a green GM and that killed us.

 

[hsandhu]

i'm in no way defending BC's prior run (although I don't think it was horrendous before - but it was a lot of trial and error), prior to the 2004 season but to besmirch his success afterward is beyond stupid.

but even that being said, BC turned around an aging Barkley Suns squad in 1996, had one downish year, but then within a year, spun that team into a 56 win team in 1997 with Kidd and Dice which was set up better than any other team going into the next off-season (where everyone and their mothers were FA) which we were supposed to clean up in, but then there was the lockout and rule changes and everything went to complete and utter crap - and the panic moves made after that was what sent us into a 6 year funk - and there's no doubt, I agree with you - that was a six year funk. But, I do believe that the lockout and ensuing changes to the CBA that was first and foremost to blame for that. Even then, they had a good plan in place, but once that plan got f'ed up, Brian definitely panicked like a green GM and that killed us.

I will give you that, when we traded for dice in '97 we were set up beautifully. I did miss that in my above post. Instead of '95-96, all went to hell in '99 after the lockout. And despite things changing on us, BC deserves a lot of the blame for that era.

Especially running the payroll up to 70 million for a team going nowhere, thats inexcusable.