I'm starting to think there's a chance

[Cbus cardsfan]

that the Cards may be better than last year.For one,they can't be much worse.Also,they have an easy schedule and the talent may be slightly higher.The only crippling thing is not having David Boston.The team speed on defense should be improved with Fisher and Jackson replacing Lassiter and Fredrickson.Bryant has to be better.Starks may be able to stay healthy and everyone is a year older.Missing out on Colvin could be the thing that keeps the defense from getting progressively better because we still have no pass rush.On offense,the OL has another year together and Clement is back.Blake and Plummer is a wash.Smith/Shipp has to be as good as Jones/Shipp last year.THe main thing missing is a true threat at the WR position and we had that in Boston.Now all we have is unproven talent and you can't count on rookies.I still think if we had kept Boston that we would've drafted Suggs.But the Cards were so desperate to ger receiving and pass rush help that they felt they had to make that trade to address both needs.Just think if,there's that word again,we kept Boston and signed Colvin and Holliday we would probably be talking about how long it is until Leftwich takes the helm at QB.Oh well,that'll never happen.At least,i'm starting to come around and think there's a chance they could vie for a wildcard spot.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
that the Cards may be better than last year.For one,they can't be much worse.Also,they have an easy schedule and the talent may be slightly higher.The only crippling thing is not having David Boston.The team speed on defense should be improved with Fisher and Jackson replacing Lassiter and Fredrickson.Bryant has to be better.Starks may be able to stay healthy and everyone is a year older.Missing out on Colvin could be the thing that keeps the defense from getting progressively better because we still have no pass rush.On offense,the OL has another year together and Clement is back.Blake and Plummer is a wash.Smith/Shipp has to be as good as Jones/Shipp last year.THe main thing missing is a true threat at the WR position and we had that in Boston.Now all we have is unproven talent and you can't count on rookies.I still think if we had kept Boston that we would've drafted Suggs.But the Cards were so desperate to ger receiving and pass rush help that they felt they had to make that trade to address both needs.Just think if,there's that word again,we kept Boston and signed Colvin and Holliday we would probably be talking about how long it is until Leftwich takes the helm at QB.Oh well,that'll never happen.At least,i'm starting to come around and think there's a chance they could vie for a wildcard spot.

Plummer and Blake are not a wash, and facts back that up.

And the team would only have drafted Suggs at 17....the team said as much, since they said Suggs was ranked #16 on their board. If they had stayed put, they would have drafted Jonathan Sullivan.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Gilmore is not a rookie, I think this will be his 3rd year, maybe more, Kasper is not a rookie, McAddley was a rookie last year, but no longer now.

 

[Goldfield]

Smith and Shipp are a ton better than Shipp / Jones...


Even though Blake isnt a world beater, he is a way better QB than Plummer... We will now have consistancy on the offensive side of the ball... With Plummer we never had that, unless there was a prevent defence out there...


Just the fact that alot of our team is now a year older will make us alittle better...

Vandenbosh a another year removed from the knee problem, Bryand in alot better shap, and Wakefield will now be a backup. All make us better at some kind of pass rush...

This year (bearing inj) should be a much better year than last...


Losing Boston isnt going to hurt us much more than last year, since we really didnt have him last year...

 

[CardNots]

Man, I can't believe someone would actually say "Plummer and Blake are a wash". Everything flows through the QB and their performance on the field. We have had one of the lowest rated QBs in the NFL for the last 3 years and our win/loss record reflects this. Blake is a major upgrade. Please remove your Plummer colored glasses and get over it. As for Boston, he wasn't much of a factor last year.

 

[Northern Card]

Just wondering what BOSTON we are talking about: The 1500 yd receiver from two years ago or the guy with "cement hands" from last year, before he checked out?

We'll find out at some point who and what San Diego bought....

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Northern Card
Just wondering what BOSTON we are talking about: The 1500 yd receiver from two years ago or the guy with "cement hands" from last year, before he checked out?

We'll find out at some point who and what San Diego bought....

Yeah, the guy who caught only 32 passes, but dropped 10.

 

[happythepeople]

You're right everyone, Blake v Plummer is not a wash.

Arizona had the 4th worst D last year. Baltimore was 23rd.
Blake completed 55% of his passes w/ health. Plummer was 53% w/ the much-lamented top 4 WR's out.
Blake threw an INT every 26.8 times he dropped back. Plummer? 26.5.
Blake was sacked 30 times in 10 games. Plummer? 36 in 16 games.
Plummer fumbles and does crazy behind the back passes which result in too many turnovers, eh? Jake had 10 fumble last year. Blake? Oh, well, he fumbled 7 times in just 10 games. Easy to figure out the averages here I'd say.
Hey, but blake had a 2.7 rush/avg. Plummer's was 6.2.
Jamal Lewis and Travis Taylor meet Thomas Jones and Jason McAddley.
Blake is 33 years old and hasn't played a full season since '96. Plummer is consistently healthy and only 28 years old.
Blake is 6"0 210. Plummer 6"2 212.
Plummer had a bout 4,000 dropped passes from WR's last year as many of you can attest to. I'm not sure about Blake.

I really wanna believe that Blake is the answer here, that he'll upgrade our offense. I just don't see it happening. The thing is, no matter what kind of glasses I put on, it always looks like there isn't gonna be all that much difference.

Someone please show me that I'm wrong.

 

[SECTION 11]

He fumbled 13 times last season, BTW.

55.9% completion percentage vs Blake's 56.3%
69.0 career passer rating vs Blake's 79.2
114 picks vs Blake's 83
One pick per every 24.2 attempts vs Blake's 34.1
Basically, Plummer throws a pick per game throughout his entire career, and Blake completes more passes for more yards and more touchdowns, and doesn't throw nearly as many picks.

Of the picks that Blake throws, how many were brought back for TD's? Plummer throwing picks on 10 yard outs was actually costing us points. Blake throwing picks on deep balls is like a punt in terms of damage assesment.


That's not over a crappy season, that's over a career. Do you really want to argue that the Bengals had more talent than the Cards?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by happythepeople
You're right everyone, Blake v Plummer is not a wash.

Arizona had the 4th worst D last year. Baltimore was 23rd.
Blake completed 55% of his passes w/ health. Plummer was 53% w/ the much-lamented top 4 WR's out.
Blake threw an INT every 26.8 times he dropped back. Plummer? 26.5.
Blake was sacked 30 times in 10 games. Plummer? 36 in 16 games.
Plummer fumbles and does crazy behind the back passes which result in too many turnovers, eh? Jake had 10 fumble last year. Blake? Oh, well, he fumbled 7 times in just 10 games. Easy to figure out the averages here I'd say.
Hey, but blake had a 2.7 rush/avg. Plummer's was 6.2.
Jamal Lewis and Travis Taylor meet Thomas Jones and Jason McAddley.
Blake is 33 years old and hasn't played a full season since '96. Plummer is consistently healthy and only 28 years old.
Blake is 6"0 210. Plummer 6"2 212.
Plummer had a bout 4,000 dropped passes from WR's last year as many of you can attest to. I'm not sure about Blake.

I really wanna believe that Blake is the answer here, that he'll upgrade our offense. I just don't see it happening. The thing is, no matter what kind of glasses I put on, it always looks like there isn't gonna be all that much difference.

Someone please show me that I'm wrong.

Well you conviently forget that: A) that is only one season B) career stats.

Completion Percentage career: Blake: 56.3% Plummer: 59.9%
Advantage: Blake by a hair, which is amazing considering Blake is more of a vertical threat (so he shouldn't complete a higher percent).

Interceptions career: Blake: 83 Plummer: 114
Advantage Blake by a wide margin. Plummer is one of the most prolific interception huckers. That might be his biggest stat.

QB rating career: Blake: 79.2 Plummer: 69.0
Advantage: Blake. 10 pts. is a wide margin. By NFL created standards, he is considered to be better.

Yards per attempt career: Blake: 6.8 Plummer: 6.4
Advatage: Blake again. Blake averages almost a half yard more for each attempted pass, so he gains more yards overall.

Rushing average career: Blake: 4.8 Plummer: 4.8
Advantage: none....a tie! So far Plummer has fallen behind in every category, but finally a tie. If you don't include last year, over the rest of Blake's career, he is a better runner than Plummer.

Blake's best season:
1995 Bengals 16 starts, 567 attempts, 326 completions, 57.5 completion %, 3822 yards, 6.7 y.p.a., 88t longest td, 28 tds passing, 17 interceptions, 82.1 QB Rating

Blake's worst season:
1997 Bengals 11 starts, 317 attempts, 184 completions, 58.0 completion %, 2125 yards, 6.7 y.p.a, 50t longest td, 8 tds, 7 interceptions, 77.6 QB Rating

Plummer's best season:
2001 Cardinals 16 starts, 525 attempts, 304 completions, 57.9 completion %, 3653 yards, 7.0 y.p.a, 68t longest td, 18 tds, 14 interceptions, 79.6 QB rating

Plummer's worst season:
1999 Cardinals 11 starts, 381 attempts, 201 completions, 52.8 completion %, 2111 yards, 5.5 y.p.a, 63 long, 9 tds, 24 interceptions, 50.8 qb rating

Best season: Advantage Blake
Worst season: Advantage Blake

His best season is better than Plummer's best, and worst season still isn't close to as bad as Plummer's worst.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
He fumbled 13 times last season, BTW.

55.9% completion percentage vs Blake's 56.3%
69.0 career passer rating vs Blake's 79.2
114 picks vs Blake's 83
One pick per every 24.2 attempts vs Blake's 34.1
Basically, Plummer throws a pick per game throughout his entire career, and Blake completes more passes for more yards and more touchdowns, and doesn't throw nearly as many picks.

Of the picks that Blake throws, how many were brought back for TD's? Plummer throwing picks on 10 yard outs was actually costing us points. Blake throwing picks on deep balls is like a punt in terms of damage assesment.


That's not over a crappy season, that's over a career. Do you really want to argue that the Bengals had more talent than the Cards?

Beat me to it Section 11.

 

[happythepeople]

Should we examine the career stats of rich gannon as well? Blake has NOT had a good year since '99, and even that is a stretch to call a good year. And, oh yeah, Plummer threw about 6 picks on chuck'ems last year. Doubtless Blake WAS a better QB, but he ain't anymore; we're, sadly, all gonna find that out. I admire the stoic optimism, but it reeks of naive homerism. There is a huge difference between pessimism and realism, only in the case of this year's QB change: the line is a bit blurred.

Are you really gonna squabble over 0.4% completion rating? Don't we all agree that Cards WRs dropped WAY TOO MANY last year? By that token, departed Jake would easily leap over Blake.

Mentioning Jake's 114 INTs to Blake's 83 is deceptive, as we could also compare Emmit Smith's early season totals to paint an accurate picture of what we're to expect this season, no? Yeah, well, no, that would be foolish. In the last 3 years Jake has thrown an INT once every 28.6 passes, whereas Blake has done so every 30.8. That may seem like a big difference to you, but that's like nagging over 40 times; it's just really not all that relevant(John Caple anyone?) with such minor difference.

The point again: Blake has had a much better career than Plummer, was likely a better QB in his younger years than Jake ever was, but as of now, there isn't much difference. You can delve deep into the almanac for Blake stats from '96 (when he peaked) and say he is thus a better qb, but that seems about just as valid as comparing their NCAA careers and expecting anything significant to arise from that. Jake kicks ass in that sense(NCAA) but I could care less, it was way too long ago. Sure, NCAA and NFL are different games, but to point out this fact is to entirely miss the point of what I'm trying to say.

Really, I think after this years pathetic draft and FA botches(can we stop trying to get so excited about Hodgins and Emmitt and finally admit that we missed out on just about every worthwhile target? I won't ever be the guy to say I told you so if Blake fails or ends up with the same results, I'll be the sitting in the corner with you, head down between the knees, cursing another losing season, but ready to try again next year.

Blake ain't any different. Maybe worse. Ask anyone in the NFL. Can EVERY SINGLE Football publication be wrong, while you few on the messageboard(who also happen to be Cardinal optimists) be right?

Hmmm, I hope so. I also hope the Detroit Tigers win the World Series this year.

 

[SECTION 11]

The completion percentage is huge. Plummer throwing little outs and slants and rolling out and getting the tight end 10 yards in front of him is his game. It's high percentage stuff that Plummer makes look way too difficult.

Blake is capable of firing all over the field, including going deep, and STILL completes a higher percentage.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
The completion percentage is huge. Plummer throwing little outs and slants and rolling out and getting the tight end 10 yards in front of him is his game. It's high percentage stuff that Plummer makes look way too difficult.

Blake is capable of firing all over the field, including going deep, and STILL completes a higher percentage.

Exactly, great point.

The biggest stat that matters the most for Blake: Never threw more interceptions than tds.

God, I can't wait for people to drop Plummer, his worship is so annoying.

He has never even had an above average season in his 7 year career.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
The completion percentage is huge.

I'm going to try and stay out of this fight, but do you really feel like one extra catch out of over 200 passes is really going to make the difference between a 4-12 team and a 7-9 team (which I think we're really talking about here)?

I don't think this really matters, though. By Blake's own (tacit) admission, our wideouts kind of suck, and don't know what's going on in the Pro game. None of them. Talk about Foster all you want, but he couldn't beat out Az or Bill Schroeder for the starting job. Did he even do anything last season? I like Freddie Jones, too, but you can't expect the TE to be the #1 target in an offense and not expect to be drafting in the Top 10 again next year. Blake said that we probably won't have any real communication or progress with the WRs until mid-season, and that it won't be prefected for another year (!!!!).

I'm comfortable with Plummer being gone (that number 16 Broncos jersey I saw at SportsCage over the weekend was a trip, though), but I don't think that Blake is a huge upgrade over him, either, especially considering the situation he was just dropped into.

 

[SECTION 11]

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's a huge upgrade over Plummer, but I'll stick by less spectacular adjectives like substantial, considerable and significant.


I also think the completion percentage is more than the meager difference in actual numbers, it's their games and what their stregnths are supposed to be. An extra completion thrown 6 yards might not be anything, but an extra completion thrown downfield just might be something.

It's all moot at this point.
I'm just glad there's a change because Plummer was sucking the life out of this franchise.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Originally posted by Northern Card
Just wondering what BOSTON we are talking about: The 1500 yd receiver from two years ago or the guy with "cement hands" from last year, before he checked out?

We'll find out at some point who and what San Diego bought....

Boston was still the team's leading receiver and he missed a ton of games.And he was the focal of the defense.To say he won't be missed is just plain stupid.If the Cards had Suggs at 16 then they are idiots.I don't believe that one second.I suppose if the Cards were drafting 20 that they'd had him rated 19th.I'm not a big Plummer fan and he should be gone but those of you who think Blake is going to light it up are sadly mistaken.That's why i said the QB position is a wash.Plummer will most likely have a better year than Blake but his time was still up here and it's better that he moved on.

 

[hef]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
I wouldn't go so far as to say he's a huge upgrade over Plummer, but I'll stick by less spectacular adjectives like substantial, considerable and significant.


I also think the completion percentage is more than the meager difference in actual numbers, it's their games and what their stregnths are supposed to be. An extra completion thrown 6 yards might not be anything, but an extra completion thrown downfield just might be something.

It's all moot at this point.
I'm just glad there's a change because Plummer was sucking the life out of this franchise.

i have to disagree b/c plummer sucked alot more than the life out of this team

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
Boston was still the team's leading receiver and he missed a ton of games.And he was the focal of the defense.To say he won't be missed is just plain stupid.If the Cards had Suggs at 16 then they are idiots.I don't believe that one second.I suppose if the Cards were drafting 20 that they'd had him rated 19th.I'm not a big Plummer fan and he should be gone but those of you who think Blake is going to light it up are sadly mistaken.That's why i said the QB position is a wash.Plummer will most likely have a better year than Blake but his time was still up here and it's better that he moved on.

That is your opinion (on Suggs). Tom Donahoe, one of the most respected personell men in the business said he gave Suggs a mid-first round grade also.....I think I trust HIS judgement and what Graves said.

I don't think that Blake will "light it up" but I don't think he is as bad as Plummer, and his career numbers support that.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
I wouldn't go so far as to say he's a huge upgrade over Plummer, but I'll stick by less spectacular adjectives like substantial, considerable and significant.


I also think the completion percentage is more than the meager difference in actual numbers, it's their games and what their stregnths are supposed to be. An extra completion thrown 6 yards might not be anything, but an extra completion thrown downfield just might be something.

It's all moot at this point.
I'm just glad there's a change because Plummer was sucking the life out of this franchise.

If completion percentage isn't "huge," then don't say it is. Say it's what you want to extrapolate into it. Statistically, that one extra grab out of every 200 passes will account for an extra 7 yards every four games.

One thing that is a troubling stat is that Blake hasn't played 16 games in a season since 1996. One thing that you could say about Jake is that you knew what you were going to get through 16 weeks. Will it still be a considerable upgrade to have Blake for 11 games and Josh McCown for the other 5?

This truly is a moot point, but I'm really saddened that the fans on this board have gone so far to sully the record of former players like Boston and Plummer. There's a reason that I'm sure these were the two highest-selling jerseys last year, and I know it wasn't because they "tried hard" (apparently the #1 reason people love KVB, followed shortly by "he went to Nebraska"), but because they were good and represented the franchise. I prefer to remember them as such, and hope they do well with their other teams.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
If completion percentage isn't "huge," then don't say it is.

Will it still be a considerable upgrade to have Blake for 11 games and Josh McCown for the other 5?

Completion percentage is huge. That's the point.

However, the Blake / McCown vs Plummer comparison is valid.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
If completion percentage isn't "huge," then don't say it is. Say it's what you want to extrapolate into it. Statistically, that one extra grab out of every 200 passes will account for an extra 7 yards every four games.

One thing that is a troubling stat is that Blake hasn't played 16 games in a season since 1996. One thing that you could say about Jake is that you knew what you were going to get through 16 weeks. Will it still be a considerable upgrade to have Blake for 11 games and Josh McCown for the other 5?

This truly is a moot point, but I'm really saddened that the fans on this board have gone so far to sully the record of former players like Boston and Plummer. There's a reason that I'm sure these were the two highest-selling jerseys last year, and I know it wasn't because they "tried hard" (apparently the #1 reason people love KVB, followed shortly by "he went to Nebraska"), but because they were good and represented the franchise. I prefer to remember them as such, and hope they do well with their other teams.

Well, I seem to remember a Plummer that according to those that are close to the team, didn't watch film much or practice at the facility in the off season. He played hard, but made a lot of mistakes, and I'm beginning to wonder if his lack of preparation is part of the reason.

I remember Boston as a guy that flew the coop as soon as he was able to, after telling the fans for 2 years that he wanted to stay.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Completion percentage is huge. That's the point.

However, the Blake / McCown vs Plummer comparison is valid.

No it isnt. The guy hasent played a whole season for a multitude of reasons.

Whats in the past is just that in the past. Injuries are freak things and sometimes some guys have the breaks and others dont.

If Blake makes it through 16 aqnd Jake only plays 10 this year does that make him all of a sudden more durable? NO!

Its just the breaks and how the cookie crumbled this season!

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Shane H
Its just the breaks and how the cookie crumbled this season!

Very true. Anything could happen.

 

[happythepeople]

Whats in the past is just that in the past


Really? So why are we talking about how well Blake performed in '96 then?

Why don't you go and tell Terrel Davis, Deshaun Foster, Ki-Jana Carter, Jose Canseco, Timmy Smith, Joe Theisman, and, heck, Grutts too, that past injuries don't matter.

Hypocrisy, a purely american thing? No, a purely idiotic one.