Is KK the right coach? Per the Athletic

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I know its a pay-site, so not every one can click through to read. I thought it was pretty balanced in that it presents pros and cons.

Is Kliff Kingsbury the right coach for the Cardinals? – The Athletic

the TL;DR version is: KK has done some good things after he took over a "dumpster fire", but there are some things holding the offense back that he needs to fix.

things working against KK:

Offense is a collection of plays (often creative) but they don't build/complement each other. Example: McVay's foundation is outside run, but he then counters with bootlegs, waggles, etc.

No evidence of sight adjustments / hot reads on blitzes.

Penalties suggest poor discipline.

Questionable game / clock management in key situations.


things in favor of KK:

the team was a BAD in 2018. They will be no worse than .500 two years later. Thats something not to be taken for granted.

K1 has developed into a very good QB with lots up upside still -- KK has tailored the offense to his strengths. Do you want K1 learning a new offense next year?

Offense lacks skill. Nobody outside Hopkins concerns defenses. Fun fact: Christian Kirk hasnt broken a single tackle in 48 catches this year. Interior o-line isnt good -- and K1 is covering up their bad play with his legs.
 

Cheesebeef

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I know its a pay-site, so not every one can click through to read. I thought it was pretty balanced in that it presents pros and cons.

Is Kliff Kingsbury the right coach for the Cardinals? – The Athletic

the TL;DR version is: KK has done some good things after he took over a "dumpster fire", but there are some things holding the offense back that he needs to fix.

things working against KK:

Offense is a collection of plays (often creative) but they don't build/complement each other. Example: McVay's foundation is outside run, but he then counters with bootlegs, waggles, etc.

No evidence of sight adjustments / hot reads on blitzes.

Penalties suggest poor discipline.

Questionable game / clock management in key situations.


things in favor of KK:

the team was a BAD in 2018. They will be no worse than .500 two years later. Thats something not to be taken for granted.

K1 has developed into a very good QB with lots up upside still -- KK has tailored the offense to his strengths. Do you want K1 learning a new offense next year?

Offense lacks skill. Nobody outside Hopkins concerns defenses. Fun fact: Christian Kirk hasnt broken a single tackle in 48 catches this year. Interior o-line isnt good -- and K1 is covering up their bad play with his legs.

that Kirk stat is pathetic.
 
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I subscribe to the Athletic. Excellent article...

I think the biggest takeaway is if Kliff returns for another season (which I am sure he will), the Cards need to hire a senior offensive consultant to give him some guidance and help.


what the heck is Tom Clement doing?
 

Chopper0080

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Ultimately a lot of what has been discussed on this board is reflected in the article. The crux of it is this.

Is Kliff a young HC who can get better? (better meaning a more cohesive offensive scheme and a more disciplined team)

Or is Kliff an inept coach who can't see what isn't working? (or flat out can't fix it)
 

SoonerLou

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@TaylorSwift I think you mentioned some of this a while back.
They don’t build on top of their concepts very well. For example, Sean McVay’s offense is built on the outside run. When defenses overplay the outside zone, they run boot. If they overplay the boot, they’ll run a throwback leak concept. Kingsbury’s system lacks staple counters that they can execute with precision.

Week 12, 10:24 remaining in the fourth quarter, second-and-5

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On this play, Kingsbury tried to design a boot off of their speed option, which is unusual, but the design was poorly conceived and executed.

A speed option is when the offensive line leaves the play-side end or linebacker unblocked. The quarterback takes the snap and attacks the edge and can keep the ball or pitch the ball to a running back outside of him. The Cardinals tried to fake a speed option to the left and then boot to the right with a flood concept.

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On a boot concept, the run fake is supposed to fool the backside end, which would allow the quarterback to get outside of him. The problem with this concept is that a speed option doesn’t entice the backside end to chase the play because there’s no threat of a cutback on the play. The Patriots stayed home and defended the play well.

Tight end Dan Arnold came off the line too slow and tried to go around the linebackers, which threw off the timing of the play.

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Murray’s first option in the flat was covered. Arnold was Murray’s second read, but he was too slow and covered. Hopkins could have been Murray’s third read, but he looked like he didn’t know what he was supposed to do and didn’t run a route. Murray ended up throwing the ball away out of the back of the end zone. This lack of precision is littered throughout the Cardinals’ tape and could be a reason why Murray doesn’t throw with more anticipation — he isn’t sure where his receivers will be, or he doesn’t trust them to get to their landmarks.

The Cardinals have major protection issues schematically and talent-wise, but they’re masked by Murray’s ability to scramble and extend plays. All five starting linemen are either average or below-average starters, and they’re better run blockers than pass blockers. The interior of the line gets pushed back a lot, and at times it has trouble handling simple stunts. That’s a problem when your starting quarterback is only 5-10.

Week 12, 10:49 remaining in the second quarter, third-and-10

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Here, the Patriots ran a simple tackle/linebacker twist. The nose tackle shot into the offensive left A-gap, while linebacker Chase Winovich looped inside to the right A-gap. The line slid right, so center Mason Cole should have passed off the nose tackle to his left guard and picked up Winovich.

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The nose tackle slanted and fell on the ground, but the center kept his eyes on him and missed Winovich looping inside. To the offensive right, the Patriots only rushed one. The tackle had help from a chip block. Technically, it’s not right guard J.R. Sweezy’s job to help on the backside, but with two players already blocking the end to that side, he should have looked to help elsewhere.

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Cole and Sweezy didn’t see Winovich until it was too late, and he was able to get in Murray’s face instantly on a simple twist. This lack of awareness and protection breakdown happens far too often.

There are times when Arizona is out-schemed from a protection standpoint. I’m unsure if this is on Murray for not calling the right protection or if it’s on Cole. Also, they don’t have good answers when they’re blitzed. There aren’t hot routes and sight adjustments to go to when Murray is blitzed. Again, Murray’s ability to get away from pressure masks a lot of these issues, but it’s not sustainable.

Week 16, 7:14 remaining in the first quarter, third-and-10

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On third-and-10, the 49ers showed a pressure front with linebacker Fred Warner (No. 54) mugged in the B-gap. Cornerback Ahkello Witherspoon was also on the line of the scrimmage, so the offense should have accounted for him as well. Arnold’s responsibility was to chip the end to his side, but with Witherspoon on the line, someone should have made a call to alert Arnold to maybe just get a hand on the end while keeping his eyes on Witherspoon.

The line slides to the left toward Warner. The center and right side of the line (left of the image) were responsible for the nose tackle, defensive end and Warner. The left side of the line (right of the image) and the running back were responsible for the three defensive players to their side.

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Either Arnold blew his assignment or no one made a call to alert him or change the protection. Arnold chipped the end and no one blocked Witherspoon, who blitzed. Warner dropped back to take Arnold in case he released on a route. Right guard Justin Murray (No. 71) was responsible for Warner but didn’t block anyone initially after Warner dropped. Some elite guards have the awareness to look outside and pick up Witherspoon.

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Witherspoon was untouched, but Murray was able to get away from him and throw the ball away.

The Cardinals don’t have enough answers against the blitz. There are too many instances when Murray is left without a hot read or sight adjustment and is forced to just try to make a play with his feet. Another problem is his height. There are times when defenses will call a blitz or pressure scheme that attacks inside and just have their edge defenders sit back to contain him and try to drop to where his hot routes might be. Kingsbury has to give his offense better tools to combat the blitzes.

In the NFL, play design is about creating mismatches. The Cardinals do not do a good enough job of doing this. Hopkins doesn’t move around the formation enough. According to Pro Football Focus, Hopkins has lined up outside to the left on 523 of his 632 routes this season. He’s still dominant enough to be productive, but his job could be easier.

In the fourth quarter of last week’s 20-12 loss to the 49ers, the Cardinals were down by eight points. After scoring a touchdown, they went for two. Kingsbury called a goal-line fade to Hopkins, which is a low percentage play, but Hopkins is a jump-ball extraordinaire, so it wasn’t a bad call. However, Hopkins lined up to the left and was matched up against the 49ers’ best corner Jason Verrett. The 49ers don’t move their corners, so Arizona likely could have matched up Hopkins with the 49ers’ backup corner (Witherspoon), if they flipped the formation. Murray threw an inaccurate pass, but regardless, the thought process in creating and attacking mismatches was lacking.

At the end of the game, the Cardinals had another chance to tie with a touchdown and two-point conversion. They drove to the 49ers’ 14-yard line and called another fade. This time, they picked on Witherspoon but didn’t match up Hopkins on him. Murray targeted receiver Christian Kirk and underthrew the pass, which was intercepted. Results aside, why wouldn’t you want to match your best receiver against a backup corner in crunch time?
 

Chopper0080

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How can he not see it if you can? That's what baffles me.
There is only so much you can do during the season. Some of the the issues are personnel driven. The failure of Kirk and Isabella to give the Cardinals any kind of vertical threat and create more space underneath is not fixable.

The schematic base or counters are also tough because sometimes your personnel isn't established enough to add a bunch during the season. Maybe they have tried which is why they look clunkier now.

The hot routes and sight adjustments are tough to comment on because you just don't know.

The penalties are an issue that is frustrating for me.

The game decisions are due to a couple of things IMO. 1 I think Kliff doesn't call out his players publicly, but he does call out his offense with his game decisions. I think he gets frustrated by the lack of execution and basically puts them in a corner where they have to. #conjecture 2. I do think Kliff may have a lot to manage on game day and just gets caught up. That is an excuse but more of an observation. Also, a young QB doesn't help.
 

MrYeahBut

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There is only so much you can do during the season. Some of the the issues are personnel driven. The failure of Kirk and Isabella to give the Cardinals any kind of vertical threat and create more space underneath is not fixable.

The schematic base or counters are also tough because sometimes your personnel isn't established enough to add a bunch during the season. Maybe they have tried which is why they look clunkier now.

The hot routes and sight adjustments are tough to comment on because you just don't know.

The penalties are an issue that is frustrating for me.

The game decisions are due to a couple of things IMO. 1 I think Kliff doesn't call out his players publicly, but he does call out his offense with his game decisions. I think he gets frustrated by the lack of execution and basically puts them in a corner where they have to. #conjecture 2. I do think Kliff may have a lot to manage on game day and just gets caught up. That is an excuse but more of an observation. Also, a young QB doesn't help.

Seems like they're giving Keesean a hard look because Isabella has failed to give the team what they need from him. Keesean may be a better fit going forward for how they plan to fix the receiving corp.

You got two things exactly how I feel. Man, do they look clunky, and the penalties, sheesh. It's one thing to get called for holding occasionally, that happens, but the pre-snap, formation and false starts are just downright bad.

Edit to add, whoever that lady is on NFL channel called out Drake bigly tonight.
 

ReasonableMan

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I subscribe to the Athletic. Excellent article...

I think the biggest takeaway is if Kliff returns for another season (which I am sure he will), the Cards need to hire a senior offensive consultant to give him some guidance and help.
I think he’s trying to do too much. Whether it’s a consultant or an assistant head coach, Kliff needs someone competent to delegate his weaknesses to
 

Proximo

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I don’t get what Kliff is doing.

almost no rollouts, very little pre play motion, not enough play action, not enough deep shots, not enough RB passes.

it’s freaking obvious stuff, but it doesn’t seem to change.

he has to be aware of all of that criticism, but isn’t changing. I don’t think a new consultant would change anything.
 

SoonerLou

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kirk just isn’t very good. We need a real #2.

sad to say it appears all 3 receivers we drafted two years ago are busts, well maybe not Johnson, he’s about what you would expect from a 6th rounder.
I like Kirk, but man that drop vs. the Patriots looms large. I just think he doesnt try to break tackles as much because he's been injury prone. He lost the bulk he use to have earlier in college career to gain speed. He's a 3 who can be a good #2 someday.
 

juza76

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I like Kirk, but man that drop vs. the Patriots looms large. I just think he doesnt try to break tackles as much because he's been injury prone. He lost the bulk he use to have earlier in college career to gain speed. He's a 3 who can be a good #2 someday.

His bloody drops can't be forgotten
If he regressed athletically as u mentioned he is a 3 who can be a good 4 someday (likely very soon)
I thought he was a legit n2 receiver and just the injuries stopped him but I was wrong
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Was it ever explained why Green Bay let him go?
My guess would be cause Aaron Rodgers thought he could call his own plays & audible out of the ones Clements called? I have no idea really so that's just a guess. I think Clements was the OC on the Rodgers SB win?
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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I like Kirk, but man that drop vs. the Patriots looms large. I just think he doesnt try to break tackles as much because he's been injury prone. He lost the bulk he use to have earlier in college career to gain speed. He's a 3 who can be a good #2 someday.
He let another one slip through his fingers in the end zone either Saturday or the week before against the Eagles? It was a little high but not so high to not be caught. A good WR would've caught that with ease.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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I don’t get what Kliff is doing.

almost no rollouts, very little pre play motion, not enough play action, not enough deep shots, not enough RB passes.

it’s freaking obvious stuff, but it doesn’t seem to change.

he has to be aware of all of that criticism, but isn’t changing. I don’t think a new consultant would change anything.
I just don't get why he can't put KM under Center more & have Drake or Edmonds lined up in the pistol? When you line up in the pistol, a LB can't get an easy read as to which way the RB is gonna go, causing a split second hesitation. That hesitation could be a game breaker? From there, bootleg/rollout, get KM on the right with no one to see over. He's lethal throwing in open space on the right side. Use motion, use the damn TE's. Instead he calls those stupid east/west screens for WR's that almost never gain anything. Cole missed a key block Saturday that would've sprung Larry for a long gainer on a slip screen. Wheel routes coming out of the backfield also. The play calling frustrates me at times. There's so much more he could use if he would just mix it up & use lots of different personnel groups.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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I know its a pay-site, so not every one can click through to read. I thought it was pretty balanced in that it presents pros and cons.

Is Kliff Kingsbury the right coach for the Cardinals? – The Athletic

the TL;DR version is: KK has done some good things after he took over a "dumpster fire", but there are some things holding the offense back that he needs to fix.

things working against KK:

Offense is a collection of plays (often creative) but they don't build/complement each other. Example: McVay's foundation is outside run, but he then counters with bootlegs, waggles, etc.

No evidence of sight adjustments / hot reads on blitzes.

Penalties suggest poor discipline.

Questionable game / clock management in key situations.


things in favor of KK:

the team was a BAD in 2018. They will be no worse than .500 two years later. Thats something not to be taken for granted.

K1 has developed into a very good QB with lots up upside still -- KK has tailored the offense to his strengths. Do you want K1 learning a new offense next year?

Offense lacks skill. Nobody outside Hopkins concerns defenses. Fun fact: Christian Kirk hasnt broken a single tackle in 48 catches this year. Interior o-line isnt good -- and K1 is covering up their bad play with his legs.
People keep saying KM needs to step up in the pocket which is true, but he's been a little better at it this season. That being said, our interior OL isn't that great & neither is our center. Cole just isn't a good center. Maybe guard but definitely not center. Gaillard needs to start there. Until we can get better interior line play, KM can't step up in the pocket much. Coupled with the fact he's short, which gives the DL better sight at batting balls down at the Los.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Keims crappy ability to draft really hurts this team. All those receivers and we couldn't find nary a one? How discouraging.
It is very discouraging. Maybe he should let Jerry Sullivan choose the next one in 2021? It's been said on here that Jerry Sullivan wanted Justin Jefferson badly. Now I see why. His numbers with the Vikings show just what a talent he is.
 

BritCard

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How can he not see it if you can? That's what baffles me.

History is filled with people who sat happily eating their own crap and thinking its pie while everyone else wondered what the hell they were thinking.
 

BritCard

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Excellent article and covers much what is said on this board. It's really hard to tell how much of the problem is Kyler and how much is Kliff. It's both to some degree but my money would go on Kliff being the bigger factor.

Some choice quotes,

"There are clear problems with the Cardinals’ offense that can be attributed to coaching. They overly rely on concepts like bubble screens and “stick” and throw too many speed outs, hitches and fades to Hopkins. I had trouble finding full play-action or dropback concepts that they’ve hung their hat on — other than mesh, which one can argue they run too much. They seem to have a collection of plays rather than a coherent system, and a lot of the time, Murray and the offense look like they aren’t on the same page or are unsure what they are supposed to do. There isn’t a lot of precision or quality sequencing going on in their offense."

"On this play, Kingsbury tried to design a boot off of their speed option, which is unusual, but the design was poorly conceived and executed."

"This lack of precision is littered throughout the Cardinals’ tape and could be a reason why Murray doesn’t throw with more anticipation — he isn’t sure where his receivers will be, or he doesn’t trust them to get to their landmarks."

"There are times when Arizona is out-schemed from a protection standpoint. I’m unsure if this is on Murray for not calling the right protection or if it’s on Cole. Also, they don’t have good answers when they’re blitzed. There aren’t hot routes and sight adjustments to go to when Murray is blitzed."

"The Cardinals don’t have enough answers against the blitz. There are too many instances when Murray is left without a hot read or sight adjustment and is forced to just try to make a play with his feet. Another problem is his height. There are times when defenses will call a blitz or pressure scheme that attacks inside and just have their edge defenders sit back to contain him and try to drop to where his hot routes might be. Kingsbury has to give his offense better tools to combat the blitzes."

"In the NFL, play design is about creating mismatches. The Cardinals do not do a good enough job of doing this. Hopkins doesn’t move around the formation enough."

"Kingsbury has made several questionable clock and game management decisions that have hurt the Cardinals this season....The Cardinals drove to the Patriots’ 36-yard line with 2:15 remaining and with a fresh set of downs. Instead of trying to score a touchdown, Kingsbury elected to try to run out the clock and play for a field goal."

"The Cardinals are a flat-out undisciplined team, and that reflects on coaching. Last season, the Cardinals were 10th in penalties, so this season isn’t an outlier. "

"Kingbury’s playcalling, game management and overall team management have been bizarre at times this season and have directly held back the team. Is Kingsbury, 41, just a young coach still learning? Can Arizona add experience to his staff to help him next season? Or is he just an offensive maverick who doesn’t check all the boxes required for an NFL head coach?"
 

Chopper0080

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Again, if you feel Kliff is self-aware and self-reflective enough to identify and correct these things over time then you keep him. If not, you let him go.

The other item that is lost at times is the young QB issue. First time coaches who have been successful have had veteran QBs for the most part.

For example, the Dolphins are not pushing for the playoffs if they don't have Fitzpatrick.

Frank Reich got Luck and then Brissett and then Rivers.

Vrabel got Mariota and Tannehill who were experienced even if they were not initially successful.

Now, McDermott got Tyrod and really didn't click offensively with Allen until last year and even then, Allen was bad.

Shannahan and McVay both immediately turned their offenses around and are arguably two of the best coaches in the NFL.

But, for coaches who drafted a young QB on their first gig...it isn't always rainbows. That is mostly because you don't have a veteran QB who can get you out of bad play calls and into better ones. They are more aware of the game they need to play in order to give the team the best chance to win.

None of this is an excuse and it doesn't apply everywhere but it is accurate that inexperienced QBs just make it a little tougher to be consistent on offense.
 
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