Is Murray Too Risk Adverse?

[BleedRed]

I don't think you understand the problem. You can't call an aggressive game if your QB won't sit in the pocket to let deeper routes develop. Almost every play designed has some sort of outlet and shot built in to it. The QB and protection are what decides when those are used.

I don't think you understand the problem. How many times this season have we seen KM stand in the pocket for a significant amount of time and then throw the ball away? How many times have we see numerous short passing routes all clustered together? I will say KM needs to have better pocket presence and learn to move up in the pocket rather then roll out if it, but honestly he has already improved significantly in that area since last year. The play calling needs to be better and at this point should probably be handed over to someone with more experience at the pro level. The team obviously plays hard for KK and I think he's a solid HC. I just question if he's really read to call the plays at this level.

 

[Russ Smith]

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Is it inside pocket 80 outside pocket 45? The way it's worded inside pocket and pocket doesn't make sense to me?

 

[GimmedaBall]

Ooh, taking personal pot shots now. Naughty naughty! I'd say the number 26,455 says I've been a member for quite a long time

It's certainly not a court of law, but yes, I suppose a fan forum can be as crazy as a Judge Judy type of show. I don't have to do any of what you say, or be a sports researcher, to know KM is sliding short of the first down and has done so on any number of occasions this season. You KNOW he has, and have admitted as much. There's absolutely no need to dig back into game film and say he did it specifically on X play of Y quarter on Z drive. You know he's done it; I know he's done it; the board knows he's done it.

Where opinion enters into it is whether or not he's hurt the team by sliding early when he doesn't have to. You've hinted you agree he's done this by talking about his look of bewilderment after not making the first downs. I suspect our difference of opinion stems from ascribing motivations and whether or not he could have gotten said first downs without suffering major hits. I think he could, and very well should; you don't; the board is split in opinion. And that's what makes for a great message board: differing opinions.

The original pot shot about not 'not having a life' is on you for ridiculing my involvement in supporting my opinion with facts. The number 26,255 (now 26,456) is both evidence of a long-time forum member AND one who doesn't have a life. Of course, for both of us to keep yammering at one another is also proof that neither one of us has a life.

When someone shows up in front of Judge Judy without any proof or evidence, she likes to ask them "Where did you think you were going? To the beach? You need to bring your evidence." My point of disagreement is that you stated that he does it 'constantly.' You have no proof of that---did you think you were going to the beach?

If he thinks he has the first down, slides, then realizes he doesn't is different than constantly sliding to avoid contact and costing a first down. Also, we don't know his thinking at the time, we don't know the instructions from his head coach, we don't know the split on this board. My guess is that most just don't care---they don't want to get into the rugby scrum and they certainly don't want to be called out for not having any facts to back up their opinion. For me, what makes a message board great is the facts that are shared. That's my opinion.

 

[TheCardFan]

If he thinks he has the first down, slides, then realizes he doesn't is different than constantly sliding to avoid contact and costing a first down.

Again - I don't think this is by accident. I don't want our 5-10 QB diving/taking shots for a first down. The risk/reward is not worth it.

The bigger issue IMO is the short yardage offense. 3rd and 1/4th and 1. We need to change it up. I think Streveler is a big part of that and I don't care what Murray thinks about it (team first).

We were horrible in red zone offense last year (huge issue) and KK adapted/improved this year. The same needs to happen for short yardage situations but this year.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Again - I don't think this is by accident. I don't want our 5-10 QB diving/taking shots for a first down. The risk/reward is not worth it.

Yup. If KM pushes the envelope on getting a first down and gets clocked by the defense---whose sole purpose is to protect their goal line and prevent that first-down---what have the Cards gained if he is injured and lost for the game, several games, or the rest of the year? Those are risk/rewards decisions that KM is making on behalf of the team when he takes an early slide. Are we going to go into the off-season after missing the playoffs and celebrate how KM went for the first-down and made it? Forget that he went to the locker room on a stretcher?

A missed first down should not be the sole play that costs us the entire game. Even if it does, it is better than costing us our QB for the rest of the year.

 

[SoonerLou]

Is it inside pocket 80 outside pocket 45? The way it's worded inside pocket and pocket doesn't make sense to me?

Yes. Goof on their part.

 

[Harry]

To ignore observation and demand statistics no one maintains is not a fair response. It’s true that type of post is an opinion but the value of putting it out there is it provides a framework for future observation. That’s why the title is a question. I did present my opinion of what I am seeing. I think we have to distinguish between third down and other downs. Third down means continued possession, a more rested defense and a chance to add points. I’m okay with Murray being cautious on first and second down. I’m not okay with his slide Sunday. That was a critical first he should have made every effort to secure. I’ve seen it before. No I can’t give you an accounting, but I’ve seen this before. Otherwise the concern would never likely to have occurred to me. I not reviewing hours of film, just watch the next set of games. You’ll either agree or you won’t. It’s literally a question you can answer for yourself by ongoing observation.

 

[JeffGollin]

To ignore observation and demand statistics no one maintains is not a fair response. It’s true that type of post is an opinion but the value of putting it out there is it provides a framework for future observation. That’s why the title is a question. I did present my opinion of what I am seeing. I think we have to distinguish between third down and other downs. Third down means continued possession, a more rested defense and a chance to add points. I’m okay with Murray being cautious on first and second down. I’m not okay with his slide Sunday. That was a critical first he should have made every effort to secure. I’ve seen it before. No I can’t give you an accounting, but I’ve seen this before. Otherwise the concern would never likely to have occurred to me. I not reviewing hours of film, just watch the next set of games. You’ll either agree or you won’t. It’s literally a question you can answer for yourself by ongoing observation.

Fair enough.

Murray is young and talented.

Kliff is young, smart and inexperienced.

As opposing coaches and players adjust to them, they'll have to "adjust back" (& so on). Hopefully KM and KK will learn on the fly and be successful, but it's no lock.

Meanwhile, it would be nice if fans (both pro and con) cut them some slack.

 

[GimmedaBall]

To ignore observation and demand statistics no one maintains is not a fair response. It’s true that type of post is an opinion but the value of putting it out there is it provides a framework for future observation. That’s why the title is a question. I did present my opinion of what I am seeing. I think we have to distinguish between third down and other downs. Third down means continued possession, a more rested defense and a chance to add points. I’m okay with Murray being cautious on first and second down. I’m not okay with his slide Sunday. That was a critical first he should have made every effort to secure. I’ve seen it before. No I can’t give you an accounting, but I’ve seen this before. Otherwise the concern would never likely to have occurred to me. I not reviewing hours of film, just watch the next set of games. You’ll either agree or you won’t. It’s literally a question you can answer for yourself by ongoing observation.

No problem with someone posting their opinion---I do it all the time myself. It's when someone posts an opinion as a fact that I (and others here) should ask for the source for the 'facts.'

My guess is that somewhere out there in football stat land there are the numbers when KM goes down before the first down marker. That's the kind of deep dive into the numbers game that you see in Vegas NFL handicappers.

As I said before, I'm more than happy with the rushing yards and TDs that KM is putting up. If KM makes a split-second decision in the game to give himself up and goes into his slide---he gets my benefit of the doubt that he made the right decision. That goes for 1st down, 2nd down, 3rd down, and 4th down. The last thing I want to see in a game is KM getting clocked because he didn't get down fast enough for the D to pull up and avoid the hit. I also stated my opinion that I think some of the 'too soon slides' might be a lack of awareness of just where to hit the turf and begin the slide and still get that first down.

KM's slides are the kind of slide you see in baseball---a runner going into second base and needing to stop his momentum and get to the base as the ball comes in from the outfield. There, you have to start your slide ahead of the base to avoid a broken ankle or major collision with the defensive player covering the base. That type of mistake could be corrected by having KM readjust his timing of when he should slide. That first-down line is not a base that he is sliding to but instead his point where his butt hits the turf.

When we are watching on TV, we have the advantage of seeing the overhead panorama view of the play and the different players in pursuit. KM does not have that luxury as he runs---he normally has a good awareness of where the D players are---but when he doesn't he may be getting down to avoid getting slammed from behind. Even when there is no one immediately behind him.

Look at the hit Simmons laid on Cam in that Pat game. Cam was angled to the sideline and was slowing himself while getting out of bounds. Simmons kept coming at full speed and clocked Cam. Do you think Cam saw Simmons coming in like a heat-seeking missile? Do you think Cam is going to step out-of-bounds sooner the next time he gets the first down along the sidelines?

I don't know KM's thinking. I don't know the directions he's getting from K2. Neither do you and neither does Stout. I'll trust KM's decision on when to slide and not call him out while watching from my living room recliner with popcorn and a frosty beverage at hand. KM's a superior athlete and is also one tough football player--I want to see him play for the Cards for a long time. If that costs a first down, so be it.

 

[Russ Smith]

I get the idea that he should have sold out for the first down but if we're all talking the same play this was the first drive of the 2nd half. The score was 10-7 us, 3rd and 11, Kyler got 9 yards and we punted from 48. What made it bad was Olszewski returned the punt for a TD that was luckily wiped out on a call I still don't get although Pereira and Blandino both insist by rule, it's the correct call, i still think bad call.

But my point is there were 27 minutes left in the game, and 5 1/2 games left in the regular season. Do you really want your franchise QB, with a sprained AC joint, taking a hit to get the first down there? Because we lost the game that play is magnified if he gets the first maybe we go down score and step on their throats, but at that time, if you're Kyler you're being told be careful because of the shoulder.

He's again on the injury list for this week with the shoulder, it's not 1 to 2 week deal so I can't fault the kid for protecting himself.

If that's in the 4th quarter and we're behind yes. This wasn't JJ Arrington sliding down on 4th down on that gave the other team the ball on downs, this was very early in the 3rd quarter.

I think he's been risk averse in the pass game, he had some INT's and has been a bit more careful on when to take shots, but for the most part I love that he protects himself when running. Wilson has done that his whole career, so has Rodgers, guys who don't won't have anywhere near as long a career.

 

[Stout]

The original pot shot about not 'not having a life' is on you for ridiculing my involvement in supporting my opinion with facts. The number 26,255 (now 26,456) is both evidence of a long-time forum member AND one who doesn't have a life. Of course, for both of us to keep yammering at one another is also proof that neither one of us has a life.

When someone shows up in front of Judge Judy without any proof or evidence, she likes to ask them "Where did you think you were going? To the beach? You need to bring your evidence." My point of disagreement is that you stated that he does it 'constantly.' You have no proof of that---did you think you were going to the beach?

If he thinks he has the first down, slides, then realizes he doesn't is different than constantly sliding to avoid contact and costing a first down. Also, we don't know his thinking at the time, we don't know the instructions from his head coach, we don't know the split on this board. My guess is that most just don't care---they don't want to get into the rugby scrum and they certainly don't want to be called out for not having any facts to back up their opinion. For me, what makes a message board great is the facts that are shared. That's my opinion.

What Harry said. Also, I wasn't trying to ridicule YOU for your facts, or your wanting to do deep dives for stats. Poor wording on my part. I was just saying I'm not going to spend hours backing up to some random internet person what my eyes tell me, and what others' eyes tell them: That KM doesn't always slide well and that those slides, whatever the motivation, have hurt us. As a writer, I'll take the hit on the poor wording there.

Constantly? I'll say when it's close to the first down marker, it's pretty often. It's happened more than 4 or 5 times in recent games (no, I'm not going to look) IMO, so it's a problem to me. Whether it's a mechanics problem, field awareness problem, or avoiding contact problem, I see it as a problem.

I don't know about other posters, but I never worry about getting into the scrum or being "called out" because someone calling me out on the internet affects me roughly the same as someone calling me out on pop star knowledge: I don't much care. I also never worry about posting a mea culpa (see above) when I think I'm wrong on something.

 

[BritCard]

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Kyler passing outside the pocket is very rare.

Once his legs start moving he forgets he has arms.

 

[GimmedaBall]

What Harry said. Also, I wasn't trying to ridicule YOU for your facts, or your wanting to do deep dives for stats. Poor wording on my part. I was just saying I'm not going to spend hours backing up to some random internet person what my eyes tell me, and what others' eyes tell them: That KM doesn't always slide well and that those slides, whatever the motivation, have hurt us. As a writer, I'll take the hit on the poor wording there.

Constantly? I'll say when it's close to the first down marker, it's pretty often. It's happened more than 4 or 5 times in recent games (no, I'm not going to look) IMO, so it's a problem to me. Whether it's a mechanics problem, field awareness problem, or avoiding contact problem, I see it as a problem.

I don't know about other posters, but I never worry about getting into the scrum or being "called out" because someone calling me out on the internet affects me roughly the same as someone calling me out on pop star knowledge: I don't much care. I also never worry about posting a mea culpa (see above) when I think I'm wrong on something.

Neither one of us has to look it up. Someone already did and posted it to Youtube. (And I thought I was a football nerd). This video was posted on Nov. 11. I have no problem with any of these slides---even the very last one:

Kyler Murray but he only slides (2020 season highlights) - YouTube

Here's the slide in the Patriot game and the return that was called back (love the fan commenting on KM for giving himself up instead of going for the 1st down and the Pat D)

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ASGEckJ5To&ab_channel=RuDown4Life

 

[football karma]

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ASGEckJ5To&ab_channel=RuDown4Life

ill change my original post: i thought he could have run right behind Arnold and picked up the first. Now, i dont think so

 

[GimmedaBall]

ill change my original post: i thought he could have run right behind Arnold and picked up the first. Now, i dont think so

Looked like Arnold was the one who was 'risk adverse' on that play. Arnold should have picked one of the Pats and applied the block (he needed the be the dude who blocked that dude). As soon as Arnold pulled up, KM immediately gave himself up as well.

 

[Chopper0080]

I don't think you understand the problem. How many times this season have we seen KM stand in the pocket for a significant amount of time and then throw the ball away? How many times have we see numerous short passing routes all clustered together? I will say KM needs to have better pocket presence and learn to move up in the pocket rather then roll out if it, but honestly he has already improved significantly in that area since last year. The play calling needs to be better and at this point should probably be handed over to someone with more experience at the pro level. The team obviously plays hard for KK and I think he's a solid HC. I just question if he's really read to call the plays at this level.

I will just say that I disagree with many of your observations stated above and we can move on. We are seeing these games differently.

 

[TaylorSwift]

I don't think you understand the problem. How many times this season have we seen KM stand in the pocket for a significant amount of time and then throw the ball away? How many times have we see numerous short passing routes all clustered together? I will say KM needs to have better pocket presence and learn to move up in the pocket rather then roll out if it, but honestly he has already improved significantly in that area since last year. The play calling needs to be better and at this point should probably be handed over to someone with more experience at the pro level. The team obviously plays hard for KK and I think he's a solid HC. I just question if he's really read to call the plays at this level.

Throw it on the pile, another decision that Kiem did not think out in full.

It was known since Mahomes was drafted that he was raw, I am curious why he thought Kingsbury could even develop Rosen?

 

[Stout]

Neither one of us has to look it up. Someone already did and posted it to Youtube. (And I thought I was a football nerd). This video was posted on Nov. 11. I have no problem with any of these slides---even the very last one:

Kyler Murray but he only slides (2020 season highlights) - YouTube

Here's the slide in the Patriot game and the return that was called back (love the fan commenting on KM for giving himself up instead of going for the 1st down and the Pat D)

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ASGEckJ5To&ab_channel=RuDown4Life

Definitely 2 out of the first video he could have gotten without getting clocked; same in the Pats game. Even the announcers recognized that. Also, that's certainly not all of the slides he's had this season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Definitely 2 out of the first video he could have gotten without getting clocked; same in the Pats game. Even the announcers recognized that. Also, that's certainly not all of the slides he's had this season.

he definitely could have gotten that first without getting crushed. Also, Dan Arnold could have made that easier by blocking ANYONE in front of him instead of just dancing with the defenders and doing nothing.

that was a big play. We had lost all mo with the 4th down stuff and there we had the ball coming out of the half at midfield. A first down and score on that drive would have knocked the Pats back on their heels and recaptured momentum.

instead Kyler goes down a yard early end then our ST craps the bed.

 

[SoonerLou]

Kyler passing outside the pocket is very rare.

Once his legs start moving he forgets he has arms.

Which is why he's not natural throwing on the run. He obviously does it sometimes, but all his life he never needed to because he could always turn the corner.

McVay/Shanahan would drill this everyday until he gets better at it.

Kliff never really had to develop the throws on the run stuff for Mahomes/Manziel cause they naturally had it.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Definitely 2 out of the first video he could have gotten without getting clocked; same in the Pats game. Even the announcers recognized that. Also, that's certainly not all of the slides he's had this season.

Yeah, but . . . Yeah, but . . . Yeah, but . . . Yeah, but. . .

Don't gimmedaball, gimmeabreak. I clearly state that the first video was posted on Nov. 11---of course, it doesn't have all the slides for this season. How could it?

In the Pat video, Arnold left him exposed by not making a block for him. Two Pats were there with two more closing---if he had stayed up he may have got the first down but he would have got hammered for the trouble. Recall he is playing with an injured shoulder during that game. I don't want him taking that risk for further injury, you do. I don't have a problem with his decision-making to go down in the split-second he has to make that decision.

Like I said, I have no problems with any of his slides in the video links I provided. My judgement is different than yours. Guess that's where it ends.

 

[GimmedaBall]

he definitely could have gotten that first without getting crushed. Also, Dan Arnold could have made that easier by blocking ANYONE in front of him instead of just dancing with the defenders and doing nothing.

that was a big play. We had lost all mo with the 4th down stuff and there we had the ball coming out of the half at midfield. A first down and score on that drive would have knocked the Pats back on their heels and recaptured momentum.

instead Kyler goes down a yard early end then our ST craps the bed.

Please review that Pat play. There was at least one of four Pat players waiting a good yard in front of the first down line. Had KM continued full speed that Pat player would have moved in position to defend the first-down line. KM would have to go through him and also be open for the other three to close and gang tackle him. He would be considered a 'runner' and subject to everyone on the D having a shot. Different story if Arnold lowered the boom on the Pat player and moved him out of the way. But Arnold didn't---do you really want KM with his bum shoulder trying to move that defender?? Getting slammed by three more after the first hit???

 

[AZCB34]

Actually, the eye test says quite the opposite. He constantly slides short of the first, in situations where a few extra feet wouldn't lead him into a big hit. Sunday was a prime example. And ALL QBs have to make split-second decisions on those slides, so he certainly doesn't get a break there. It's a big hole in the game of a running QB, and one he absolutely MUST address. It's really hurt us this season.

Now, if we're talking the D is closing in and he's 5 yards short of the first, get on the ground, son!

Wait until he does it during a playoff game because he will.

 

[Stout]

Wait until he does it during a playoff game because he will.

Playoff games, and games in do-or-die, get-into-the-playoffs situations, are different

 

[BritCard]

Which is why he's not natural throwing on the run. He obviously does it sometimes, but all his life he never needed to because he could always turn the corner.

McVay/Shanahan would drill this everyday until he gets better at it.

Kliff never really had to develop the throws on the run stuff for Mahomes/Manziel cause they naturally had it.

I can't believe they wouldn't be working on him throwing on the run. Give me a mobile QB who can throw on the move over a running QB any day.

One of the biggest advantages of a mobile QB is the ability to move him out of the pocket to throw when needed. Heck, I'm not even too concerned about him throwing on the run at the moment, I'd settle for him moving out, resetting and throwing. There have been several opportunities in games this year he could have reset outside the pocket and throw.

Russ Wilson does it all the time to great effect.