Is our playbook too complicated ?

[wit3card]

I think the playbook may have some overcomplicated parts that, in nowadays NFL don't work well anymore.

Defenses get faster and faster every year. And many O-lines have problems. In fact, the Cards O-line overall was ranked in the middle of the pack with it's performance on sunday. Even last year the O-line wasn't in the worst 5.

O-line is a problem not only for the Cards: Seattle, Houston, Jax, Stealers, Giants, Bengels, Vikings, Broncos, Dolphins, Ravens, Saints, Charges, Washington, 49ers, Colts, Jets, Panthers, Rams and Patriots have problems with theire O-line that is more as half of the NFL. The Dallas, Lions, Bills, Buccanier and Titans O-line are not without questionmarks on some positions.

It seems that the D is at the moment ahead of the curve and the O-lines don't match the quickness, athleticism and physicality of D-lines and OLBs.

I would say, maybe, BA should overdoo his playbook and he doesn't seem to help QB/WR/TE by any means.

 

[juza76]

lol

My avatar is the bomb. Thats me standing in front of a 200ft waterfall 12 miles deep into the grand canyon.

(and that isnt my son)

Yeah is an amazing photo
Whats the name of the place

 

[BigRedRage]

Yeah is an amazing photo
Whats the name of the place

Mooney falls, part of havasupai. Havasupai is the most photographed waterfall in north America.

https://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/havasupai.htm

 

[wit3card]

Can a playbook be complicated yet completely uncreative and unimaginative at the same time?

For sure, it even can be very 1 dimensional or easy to read/exploit. For example if the CB knows that in a man coverage the WR is expected to run a out rout in the playbook, he knows where he has the leverage.

Being complicated doesn't always mean creative or imaginative or hard to read or exploit, complicate can mean you can have many options that most of the time don't even are touched on but you need all of the player to be on the same page else it doesn't work.

I read some year ago an example of Bill Bellichecks playbook, if the Slot WR sees that the FS is in the Box and the own TE has to stay blocking he needs to run a seam-rout if the TE disingages he has to run an out rout, if the FS drops back and the TE stays blocking he has to run a curl in rout and if the FS drops back and the TE disingages he has to run a post rout.

This is very difficult and complicated for the Slot WR but at the same time it is only 1 play and if your TE always stays blocking and the FS always drops back it may seem very unimaginary and uncreative. And it could even be easy to read and exploit ...

 

[Chopper0080]

No. The best schematic offenses are complex in their nature. The unintended consequence of this is that it becomes more difficult for newcomers to come in and catch up to the vets in the system. This is one reason most players struggle to come in and make an impact in offense like New Orleans and New Englands. Those offenses install new elements every year which increase the effectiveness and complexity. The notable exception to this is the Green Bay (and now NY Giants) offense which is simple in nature because they generally fill out their depth through the draft vs free agency. Those are false examples of effectiveness however.

In regards to Dallas, they are doing what most good offenses with young QBs do. They install along with the development of the QB. Dak was given a simplistic version of Garrett's offense last year focused on the aspects of the offense that best fit Dak's abilities at that time. From there Garrett has increased the playbook as Dak has shown he has mastered what he has been given.

In terms of Arizona, the offense is necessarily complex because of the years Palmer has been in it. However, the issues/inexperience at WR have caused struggles for young players like Chad Williams because they are expected to keep up with Palmer who is years into the playbook.

 

[Harry]

The playbook is likely fairly typical. The tricky part of a playbook is the variances on a theme and execution. The same play can run from multiple formations, to opposite side and with motion among other options. Trickier yet is the options available during execution. Receivers for example can read the coverage and have options on which way to cut. This is part of the problem that can result from too little practice. Part of this process involves decisions both the receiver and passer must make. If the receiver goes one way and passer leads him the other way, you get intercepted. The same thing happens if the cut is too sharp or if the passer misjudged the receiver's speed. It's all about precision of routes and timing. I don't think the plays are too tough but it's pretty simple if you have over 100 plays but practice only 25 how good is the execution going to be on the others.

 

[londonpete]

Thanks for the replies. All very interesting.

I guess some of you guys would have seen playbooks at High school , I've only seen a couple of examples online , so it is interesting trying to understand the nuances of it all.

It seems it could be more of a practice issue maybe - needing time to get these things executed efficiently and getting new guys up to speed.
And coaching... but that is another story.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It seems it could be more of a practice issue maybe - needing time to get these things executed efficiently and getting new guys up to speed.
And coaching... but that is another story.

This topic goes well beyond football if you ask me.

The age of Iphone manufacturing, where you talk about what your going to do for 5 hrs in a meeting, and then when it is time to do the job, they do not let you go to your desk to work on it, and then there is FURIOUS confusion on why things have turned into a class A "poop" show.

We are seeing this in the NFL. They spend all week talking about it, but they do not put the work in to get the job done. Then on Sunday you watch a multi-million dollar quarterback who cannot hit a 10 yard out, or a linebacker than cannot make a tackle, or a offensive lineman that cannot block.

Its a term I like to call, "Kicking your own ass".

 

[Mitch]

Play calling into today's NFL has morphed into a cat and mouse game at the line of scrimmage. While pro coaches such as BA express disdain for the "no huddle" trend in college football, the NFL has adopted a version of it.

Look at what Matthew Stafford did to take command of the game versus the Cardinals. He scrapped the huddle so as to buy time getting the offense in formation and he read how the Cardinals' defense matched up. From there he used a hard count, sometimes two and three times to see if he could get any of the Cardinals' linebackers and safeties to telecast their blitzes. Then came the check down and the pass protection/blocking adjustment. Stafford even pointed to the players he thought was going to blitz.

It worked, because on a number of occasions the Cardinals' defense then checked out of their original blitz call, because they felt they had already given it away.

The Cardinals' normally blitz two or three times as much as they did versus the Lions...but Stafford had a lot to do with why the Cardinals only blitzed 15% of the time in this game.

Look at Aaron Rodgers with the Packers. How many of you saw the Packers play the Seahawks? Rodgers, who had a very difficult first half handling the Seahawks' pressure, did essentially what Stafford did. He bought himself some time at the line of scrimmage...made audibles in reaction to how the Seahawks' defense was aligned, gave numerous hard counts, which had the Seahawks' DTs and DEs jumping off sides and then got a few free plays out of it where he loves to take his shots down the field. Rodgers has been doing this for years.

Tom Brady...same thing much of the time.

Conversely, the Cardinals typically huddle (and take their sweet time doing it---and don't even break the huddle and hustle to the line as briskly as most huddles are taught to do)...it's still hard to believe that a QB 5 years into the system needs a wrist band of the plays to read off of...and by the time Carson Palmer has the offense aligned, the play clock is running down and while they motion the WR, it goes down to inside the final 5 seconds when Palmer snaps the ball on the first hut, which gives a distinct advantage to the defense.

This is where one might question whether BA has not stayed up with the times as a play caller. The Cardinals do not seem to gain the competitive advantage that other offenses do with QBs who audible and use hard counts and re-audible, when necessary. Furthermore, it seems, more often than not, the Cardinals' offense has now become highly predictable. Thus, imagine how good the offense could be if they could win the cat and mouse games at the line of scrimmage and actually keep a defense guessing and on its heels.

 

[Harry]

Interesting observation Mitch. The Cards seem to audible much less than other teams. I think BA believes you run the play you call unless the D does something extraordinary.

 

[BigRedRage]

I think palmers wrist playbook is just so BA can call "play 25" and he can go to play 25 and call the play. Less verbal communication streamlines the playcall.

 

[Mitch]

Interesting observation Mitch. The Cards seem to audible much less than other teams. I think BA believes you run the play you call unless the D does something extraordinary.

Harry, I wonder how much of this is a control issue on BA's part and a trust factor between him and CP. Same thing with snapping the ball on one all the time... could it be that BA doesn't trust that the o-line won't jump on a hard count? We have seen how BA goes irate over those types of mistakes and how he has on a few occasions shown his frustration when CP changes the play.

The reality is that BA and CP got significantly out-coached and out-played in the 2nd half by OB Jim Bob Cooter and QB Matthew Stafford. They took control of a very sloppy game when the Cardinals could not. They show more trust and give more autonomy to their QB. This likely has a lot to do with why Stafford led the Lions to 7 come-from-behind 4th quarter wins last year.

 

[cardpa]

Harry, I wonder how much of this is a control issue on BA's part and a trust factor between him and CP. Same thing with snapping the ball on one all the time... could it be that BA doesn't trust that the o-line won't jump on a hard count? We have seen how BA goes irate over those types of mistakes and how he has on a few occasions shown his frustration when CP changes the play.

The reality is that BA and CP got significantly out-coached and out-played in the 2nd half by OB Jim Bob Cooter and QB Matthew Stafford. They took control of a very sloppy game when the Cardinals could not. They show more trust and give more autonomy to their QB. This likely has a lot to do with why Stafford led the Lions to 7 come-from-behind 4th quarter wins last year.

If this is a fact then Arians would have hated Warner.

 

[Mitch]

If this is a fact then Arians would have hated Warner.

Warner was his own OC. Very much like Peyton Manning in that regard. Took full ownership of the offense and the preparation.

 

[wit3card]

Somehow, after reading your comments Mitch and my own analysis of Sundays game, and seeing what we did in the Draft/FA I come to the conclusion, that Keim and BA and CP already know that this is theire last dance together. And Palmer wasn't ready on sunday and now has to do overtime.

Fitz after what he told on TV is probably assured that Blain Gabbert or a Top QBoF will play next year to achieve some new records, Fitz with a TD from Gabbert would lead not only the list of WR with TD on the same team with different QB but also the list of WR from different QB overall if I remember right, that is a feast probably no one will ever again achieve. Not to mentition yards etc. and if he is as fast as clocked, why should he go away from a game he loves. Maybe with a new HC that gives him some freedom back and uses him different, he can get again 1000 yards, who knows.

With as much Draftpicks in round 2-7 we can get QB in rd #1 C/G #2 CB/WR in #3 and so on we could fill our holes, get one year of gabbert or half year and have the QBoF in the wing.

But else this offseason makes not much sense, CP not training full and so on.

And I don't think Keim is enamored of BA "i don't fire coaches" say or BA's stubborness and so on. From Keims point of view, he gave BA everything that was asked for, BA himself said he wanted Iupati ... and Keim tryed to find fast WR and athletic LT/LG and so on. But BA has a "if you haven't already played your tail of in the NFL you are worth nothing" attitude that costs us every year at least one of our top 3 picks.

 

[juza76]

Yes is complicated
Thats why they end up calling back former cardinals
The playbook has been build after several years of studying
is not a case we have the oldest offensive coaches in the nfl

 

[Cardiac]

It seems to me that every game I watch the QB is looking at his wrist band. Making an issue of this is simply looking to pick nits IMO.

 

[Harry]

Trust & delegation do not seem to be BA's strong suits when it comes to players. Ironically he seems to trust his coaches to a fault, always seeming to believe it's the player's execution that caused a failure. This is not new. It was well known to be part of BA's style before he got to AZ. No one seemed to have a big problem with it when the Cards were winning. Most coaches come with their playbook. For almost every coach it's a question of can the players make the plays work. The Cards may have trouble answering in the affirmative with this group.

It's funny but I can still remember Todd Haley saying how he drew up the play on the plane that Fitz scored on late in the Super Bowl. That wouldn't happen under this leadership group. Doesn't make BA a bad coach. It's just his style.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

If they have so many plays, how come they used only 5 of them in the Detroit game?

Run up the middle.
Flat pass.
Crossing route.
Bomb.
I forgot the 5th one they used.

LOL, no doubt...

We keep hearing about how hard BA's offense is to grasp, But I honestly think my HS coach had a deeper playbook.

Maybe he's saving the other 140 or so plays for the Super Bowl?


On another note..... If the plays in the last couple years of Madden even remotely resemble BA's offense...... God help us.

 

[cardpa]

Warner was his own OC. Very much like Peyton Manning in that regard. Took full ownership of the offense and the preparation.

Exactly which would not sit well with Arians who seems to have the idea that he is a master of offensive philosophies. I don't think Warner constantly changing plays at the line of scrimmage would sit well with BA.