Is there a reason why we don't fire Kliff today?

[kerouac9]

What really makes your view ridiculous is this. It’s really simple. Kick the extra point and make it a one score game. Miss the two point attempt AT THAT POINT and the game is now a two score game and essentially over.

Yeah but if you convert the 2-point attempt you're even closer because it's a one-score game with the next extra point.

Daves' argument (which I agree with) is that you increase your information and know what you have to do next by attempting the 2-point there. If you kick the extra point and convert you're still uncertain as to the outcome.

 

[BritCard]

The (wrong) argument is that missing it late is sooo much worse than missing it early, which just misunderstands sports psychology or pretends it doesn't exist. Missing it early crushes the comeback, because what was a realistic expectation of tying the game at the end becomes a monumentally harder proposition requiring two scores.

Making it early does make a real difference--only if you make it. If you can guarantee that result, then sure, it's the better option. I'll try to not utterly demoralize my team early in the comeback, thanks.

McSorley was at QB. Pretty sure the team were as down as could be by that point.

 

[BritCard]

I'll try to keep it as simple as possible for everyone.

If you are going to make the two-point conversion, it doesn't matter whether you make it early or later. (Well, those who think there might be some psychological edge could argue that making it earlier puts more pressure on the opponent, but I'm not making that argument.)

If you're going to miss the two-point conversion, it's better to miss it early when you still have time to do something about it, rather than to miss it with no time on the clock.

People keep comparing a scenario where the conversion is missed early, to one where they imagine it might be successful later. OF COURSE making the two-point conversion is better than missing it. But that's a false comparison.

...dave

This is the way. And in fact you see teams do this frequently because if you miss the first one you have another shot later to bring it back to "square".

 

[TRW]

Yeah but if you convert the 2-point attempt you're even closer because it's a one-score game with the next extra point.

Daves' argument (which I agree with) is that you increase your information and know what you have to do next by attempting the 2-point there. If you kick the extra point and convert you're still uncertain as to the outcome.

If you go for 2 and don't get it you are certain of the outcome. Either way in this game, with this team, the game was lost either way.

 

[SoonerLou]

Kliff has only had Kyler, Hopkins and Hollywood for 1 game and 3 plays. Not to mention his top 3 projected Olineman have missed most of the season.

Unless Payton is asking for the job Im not sure you can fire him. At least justifiably. Other coaches will see Kliff got a raw deal.

 

[kerouac9]

Kliff has only had Kyler, Hopkins and Hollywood for 1 game and 3 plays. Not to mention his top 3 projected Olineman have missed most of the season.

Unless Payton is asking for the job Im not sure you can fire him. At least justifiably. Other coaches will see Kliff got a raw deal.

Yeah, maybe. But Kliff isn't Steve Wilks. He's a guy who jumped the line (not his fault) and landed in a situation where he wasn't qualified and failed.

It'll be a similar situation to how the Browns ran off Freddie Kitchens after one year and no one cared.

 

[DVontel]

Yeah, maybe. But Kliff isn't Steve Wilks. He's a guy who jumped the line (not his fault) and landed in a situation where he wasn't qualified and failed.

It'll be a similar situation to how the Browns ran off Freddie Kitchens after one year and no one cared.

Not to mention that his tenure has been 4 years, not 1 like Wilks & Kitchens. Enough time to had prove it.

 

[BritCard]

Yeah, maybe. But Kliff isn't Steve Wilks. He's a guy who jumped the line (not his fault) and landed in a situation where he wasn't qualified and failed.

It'll be a similar situation to how the Browns ran off Freddie Kitchens after one year and no one cared.

Did he fail? Up until this season and the massive pile of injuries we have had he had a winning record and one losing season in 3. And that was with a rookie QB rebuilding one of the worse rosters in the league. He was, and probably still is, the 4th most winning Cardinals coach since the merger as a percentage.

Kliff's time may be up and he has issues but he's not the massive failure and steaming pile that people make out.

I don't think it matters who was HC this year. Do you see anyone winning much with the injuries and suspensions we have had? Against the Broncos we had 5 offensive starters and one of them left the game and 6 defensive starters.

The Niners and Shanahan have been excused 4-12 and 6-10 seasons due to injuries.

 

[Zalixar]

Kliff has only had Kyler, Hopkins and Hollywood for 1 game and 3 plays. Not to mention his top 3 projected Olineman have missed most of the season.

Unless Payton is asking for the job Im not sure you can fire him. At least justifiably. Other coaches will see Kliff got a raw deal.

Yeah. As much as I'd like a new coach, and as bad as we played, we didn't play with even close to a full roster at all. Kliff did have better seasons each year before this trainwreck. He deserves  some credit.

Unless Payton comes knocking, give him one year with interim GM's. That way you are not locked into a new GM and you can start new in 2024.

 

[Stout]

Kliff has only had Kyler, Hopkins and Hollywood for 1 game and 3 plays. Not to mention his top 3 projected Olineman have missed most of the season.

Unless Payton is asking for the job Im not sure you can fire him. At least justifiably. Other coaches will see Kliff got a raw deal.

Who cares? We know--or should know--he's not a good coach.

 

[Metcalf Rules]

If its Harris, or Wilson or someone from outside and they keep Kliff for one more year, I think it needs to be mandatory he have an OC. And why they didn’t insist upon that at the beginning is beyond me. In fact, not insisting on an offensive coordinator could probably be a post in the “Remembering Keim moves” thread. The undisciplined play, especially on offense is mind boggling. False starts, illegal motion, calling timeouts to avoid delay of game proves he can’t be both play caller and head coach.

 

[slanidrac16]

Yeah but if you convert the 2-point attempt you're even closer because it's a one-score game with the next extra point.

Daves' argument (which I agree with) is that you increase your information and know what you have to do next by attempting the 2-point there. If you kick the extra point and convert you're still uncertain as to the outcome.

You’re wrong. If you fail the two point conversion, which we did, we solidified the outcome thus taking any pressure off your opponent.
Instead of the mindset of needing a td and a 2pt. conversion we were now looking at needing two possessions.
I’m sorry. I just don’t see the your or Kliffs logic.

 

[SoonerLou]

Yeah, maybe. But Kliff isn't Steve Wilks. He's a guy who jumped the line (not his fault) and landed in a situation where he wasn't qualified and failed.

It'll be a similar situation to how the Browns ran off Freddie Kitchens after one year and no one cared.

Kliff's accomplished way more than Freddie Kitchens though. Kitchens was just the OC. It was Greg Williams that was HC when they turned it around. When Freddie officially became HC that team seemed stacked and underperformed. Meanwhile we've had major injury issues and a GM that apparently needs to step away from his job for his own mental health.

 

[BritCard]

Yeah. As much as I'd like a new coach, and as bad as we played, we didn't play with even close to a full roster at all. Kliff did have better seasons each year before this trainwreck. He deserves  some credit.

Unless Payton comes knocking, give him one year with interim GM's. That way you are not locked into a new GM and you can start new in 2024.

I can't find anyone who has fired their HC while their entrenched starting QB is out with a major injury. We shouldn't be the first.

We should also give him a chance to work with a new GM and let that GM decide.

The cynical view is that next year is probably a write off already. We certainly aren't winning any Superbowls. At best we are like the Browns this year. Limping to a 4-7 record before Kyler comes back and we pray for a late season miracle. We shouldn't dump that on a new HC. Let Kliff take the hit and then move on.

Unless of course by some miracle Payton wants to sign with a team where the starting QB will likely miss half the year.

 

[SoonerLou]

I can't find anyone who has fired their HC while their entrenched starting QB is out with a major injury. We shouldn't be the first.

We should also give him a chance to work with a new GM and let that GM decide.

The cynical view is that next year is probably a write off already. We certainly aren't winning any Superbowls. At best we are like the Browns this year. Limping to a 4-7 record before Kyler comes back and we pray for a late season miracle. We shouldn't dump that on a new HC. Let Kliff take the hit and then move on.

Unless of course by some miracle Payton wants to sign with a team where the starting QB will likely miss half the year.

Yea unless Payton just REALLY wants to be on the west coast (Chargers deciding to keep their HC) and he sees 2024 as the year to contend then Im not sure about firing Kliff. I do get the sense Kyler wont miss that much time in 2023 though.

Who cares? We know--or should know--he's not a good coach.

Honestly I fear unless we are getting Payton we'll get a worse coach.

At least with this iteration of the Cardinals that Chargers game showed real signs of life. If we get the Christmas miracle that Kyler doesnt miss too much time in 2023 that season could turn out decent.

 

[kerouac9]

Did he fail? Up until this season and the massive pile of injuries we have had he had a winning record and one losing season in 3. And that was with a rookie QB rebuilding one of the worse rosters in the league. He was, and probably still is, the 4th most winning Cardinals coach since the merger as a percentage.

Kliff's time may be up and he has issues but he's not the massive failure and steaming pile that people make out.

I don't think it matters who was HC this year. Do you see anyone winning much with the injuries and suspensions we have had? Against the Broncos we had 5 offensive starters and one of them left the game and 6 defensive starters.

The Niners and Shanahan have been excused 4-12 and 6-10 seasons due to injuries.

I mean, if he gets fired it's pretty clear that he failed at the coach's #1 objective — keeping his job for another season.

He got extended because the team's record improved from the previous season over his first three years on the job — despite troubling late-season collapses each year. If he loses his job, it will be because he failed to maintain the standard he set and didn't fix the late season collapse problem (for those keeping score at home, we are 1-5 since we threw out our Jack O'Lanterns.

The injuries could be an excuse if Kliff had a productive relationship with the quarterback. Instead they feuded on the sideline and Kyler regressed to the point that some fans were wondering if he was purposefully playing poorly to get his coach fired.

Kyler has had every opportunity in the world to give Kliff a vote of confidence had hasn't said boo. No, he doesn't say much about anything unless directly asked by a reporter (and sometimes even then), but it's been a season-long embarrassment.

 

[SoonerLou]

Not to mention that his tenure has been 4 years, not 1 like Wilks & Kitchens. Enough time to had prove it.

Im no Kliff fanboy. However, putting everything into perspective.

Year 1 - Actually looked like an NFL team
Year 2 - Division lead until Kyler got hurt
Year 3 - #1 seed until Hopkins got hurt
Year 4 - A calendar year of garbage that many HC's couldnt deal with from QB, suspensions, coaches off the field issues and Keim going full Keim.

 

[SoonerLou]

@DVontel I really fear we'll get Steve Wilks(at least at the time) and Jim Tomsula level bad HC hiring.

That Kyler injury destroyed our chance at getting quality 1st time HCs. With the amount of turnover for HC's why tie yourself to that.

Again unless Payton just doesnt care about 2023 I dont think we'll have good options.

 

[PJ1]

Y

This is the way. And in fact you see teams do this frequently because if you miss the first one you have another shot later to bring it back to "square".

You don’t see teams do this frequently. You see teams keep it a one score game as long as possible. The game announcers were trying to figure out why they went as well. If you miss the first one you now need to score on two drives.

 

[daves]

You still obstinately refuse to acknowledge that sports psychology exists, eh? That players and teams play in a vacuum without being affected by morale and momentum? You're not usually this stubborn. Becoming demoralized when missing that early 2-point conversion has very real effects. Deny it if you want, but that doesn't negate the fact.

You have a completely unsubstantiated theory that if a team kicks an extra point early, they will somehow play better from that time onward and improve their chances of scoring 8 more points, even though they don't know whether they need one possession or two to achieve those to 8 points. More likely, they could play with less urgency, believing they have plenty of time for one more drive, only to miss the two-point conversion later and not have enough time left to show again.

The FACTS are borne out by the expected win percentages in the Five Thirty Eight article, which show that it is ALWAYS better to go for two early when down 15. As well as the obvious elementary logic that gaining information sooner is to the teams benefit. When a team goes for two earlier, they know either that they need two drives, or they need to score a single TD+XP with as little time remaining on the clock as possible, to prevent the opponent from having time for a game-clinching score.

If you have cancer, you don't improve your odds of survival by waiting to go to the doctor.

...dave

 

[daves]

What really makes your view ridiculous is this. It’s really simple. Kick the extra point and make it a one score game. Miss the two point attempt AT THAT POINT and the game is now a two score game and essentially over.

What makes your view ridiculous is that if you are going to miss the two-point conversion later, IT'S NOT A ONE SCORE GAME after kicking the XP. But you're going to play as if it is. So you're playing to keep false hope alive and lose at the last minute when there's not enough time left to show again.

...dave

 

[kerouac9]

Y

You don’t see teams do this frequently. You see teams keep it a one score game as long as possible. The game announcers were trying to figure out why they went as well. If you miss the first one you now need to score on two drives.

I don't understand how people don't get that this is the entire point.

If you miss the next one you STILL have to score on another drive, you just have less time on the clock. Why is that better?

 

[kerouac9]

What makes your view ridiculous is that if you are going to miss the two-point conversion later, IT'S NOT A ONE SCORE GAME after kicking the XP. But you're going to play as if it is. So you're playing to keep false hope alive and lose at the last minute when there's not enough time left to show again.

...dave

Exactly. Kliff is being good and smart by shifting the blame from the players (who weren't good enough to stop the other team on D or whatever) to himself.

My Man Dan Campbell said that he learned from working with Sean Payton that opposing teams were terrified when they'd go for it on fourth. That's why he goes for it so often, and why he's willing to take shots.

The psychological advantage works both ways. The opponents have to suddenly get ready for an unexpected two-point try.

 

[daves]

What really makes your view ridiculous is this. It’s really simple. Kick the extra point and make it a one score game. Miss the two point attempt AT THAT POINT and the game is now a two score game and essentially over.

It's only a one-score game after kicking am XP if you KNOW they will make the two-point conversion later.

If you believe that the team will miss the two-point conversion early, but magically would make the two-point conversion if only they wait until later, then you're not comparing "going for it early" to "going for it later". You're comparing "missing it early" to "making it later". No wonder you don't see why waiting is wrong.

...dave

 

[Snakester]

I don't understand HOW he still has a job! PLEASE someone enlighten me!!!

I see Kliff gone on black Monday. This season has been pitiful.