Is Vick really good?

[Duckjake]

Too bad we won't ever know because I'd take that bet. Vick plays behind the best coached offensive line in football. Gibbs, who came from Denver when they were racking up pro-bowl rb's, has taken three 6th rounders a 7th rounder and an undrafted free agent and turned them into the best unit in the league.

In spite of that, Vick still get's sacked a lot. His rushing totals go down every year and his passing totals don't go up and actually seem to be getting worse as well.


Vick: 1025 total yards 8 TD 12 TO's (behind the best line in football)
McWarner: 1865 total yards 6 TD 11 TO's (behind the o-line we've all come to know and love).

Now, if we were comparing rb's to rb's, I'm pretty sure Dunn/Duckett/Griffith stack up pretty well against Shipp/Arrington/Ayenbedajio(sp?)

Lastly, Atlanta's backup qb Matt Schaub, who I'm pretty sure isn't known as a runner, has 6 rushes for 59 yards (9.8 ypc) while playing qb this year. I don't think Atlanta would lose much at all if Vick was replaced by Schaub now that he's had time in the system.

Convenient how you left out WR comparison. I'd say that Fitz and Boldin are a little better than Michael Jenkins and Dez White. Add in the additional threat in the redzone and ability to get TD's instead of FG's and our defense and I'd bet Vick helps the Cards beat the Rams and the Panthers.

 

[the wild cards]

They won with Vick before Gibbs. The won with Vick after Gibbs.
Every time another QB goes in they almost always lose. With Vick in there they win at an incredibly high percentage.

The dude wins games. Not the running game nor the defense which would be the case if the back up QBs were doing the same. When McNab went out the PHI backups won.

By the way I think the West Coast offense is totally wroing for Vick and they are making a mistake using that offense with Vick.

Also he is playing hurt that has a lot to do with his numbers.

But whatever all HE DOES IS WIN.

 

[Russ Smith]

By the way I think the West Coast offense is totally wroing for Vick and they are making a mistake using that offense with Vick.

I agree but I'm curious what offense would be right for Vick?

In all honesty short of an option or a wishbone what offense is there designed to play to Vick's strengths?

You could try the spread system Urban Meyer used at Utah with Alex Smith, but that offense leaves the QB totally unprotected I'm convinced NFL teams would kill a QB in that system it's not all that dissimilar from what happened to Spurrier with Washington his fun and gun left Ramsay a sitting duck.

To be effective, Vick HAS to run, but he's clearly not accurate enough to play in the WCO and the key is timing and when he's always looking to run, he never gets to the 2nd read if the first guy isn't open, Vick is moving.

 

[the wild cards]

Instead of a West Coast type offense just use a more traditional NFL offense where the QB has more freedom then the pre-determined West Coast patterns. With plenty of roll outs and run-pass options due to Vick's skills.
Forget all the mutiple reads, timed patterns, with him and all the short passing stuff. Let him run a traditional pass offense. Add in movement options and let him use his natural abilities as best as he can.

 

[cardsfan22]

in this fantasy football era, people look at stats and judge how good a player is. i look at how much a player wins

the cards offense is in the top 10 i think, but would anyone say that they are a top 10 offense? not a chance

im not saying the only reason the falcons win is because of Vick,but because Defenses have to pay so much attention to him, it makes the players around him that much better.

Joe Montana was one of the best QB's ever to play this game. but his stats are not as strong as lets say Dan Marino. But if i had to pick one of the 2 to play a big game for me. with out a doubt i go with Montana

In time, vicks arm will catch up with his legs and he will be one of the all time greats to play the game.

oh, and the whole warner/McCown/Vick thing is not even a question. I take Vick every time.

 

[cardsfan22]

oh and about the offense

The one that Mike has got going for Jake in Denver would be a good fit.

Vick could do more then jake,but the running out of the pocket and allowing his qb to make plays would be perfect for Vick. I agree the "traditional" West coast offense is not the best fit for vick

 

[moklerman]

Convenient how you left out WR comparison.

Yeah, all of Vick's passing troubles are because of the wr's. The guy just doesn't throw the ball accurately. Have you watched him play? I was just talking about this to a buddy of mine. The wr's that Atlanta has had can't really be analyzed because Vick misses them by so much on the rare occasion that he actually throws to them. Unless Crumpler is standing in a defender free, 10 yard bubble Vick probably won't complete the pass.

The dude wins games. Not the running game nor the defense

So, does Big Ben get the same consideration? Pittsburgh lost when he was out of the lineup so it must be all him right? He comes back, they win. Pittsburgh's defense and running game are irrelevant.

By the way I think the West Coast offense is totally wroing for Vic

Also he is playing hurt that has a lot to do with his numbers.

Boy, Vick sure seems to have a crappy supporting cast holding him back. I wonder when his career long injury keeping him from completing more than 50% of his passes will heal?

But if i had to pick one of the 2 to play a big game for me. with out a doubt i go with Montana

That would be a very tough call. I don't think either choice is bad, obviously, but Marino had a lot more experience coming from behind so that might give him the slightest edge in my book. I think he could read the defense as well as Montana and throw the ball better so it would all come down to who was going to support the qb in this hypothetical situation.

in this fantasy football era, people look at stats and judge how good a player is. i look at how much a player wins

Like when Kordell Stewart was 13-3? Or Trent Dilfer or Tommy Maddox?

 

[cardsfan22]

those QB's had 1 or 2 good years i am talkig about over time. Vick wins games

thats all i am saying. Something has to be said about a guy who wins. just as much as his qb rating and how many TD's he throws

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

i just want a single post that lists all the posters that select warner or mccown over vick. then i can put them on ignore and enjoy more intellectual discourse on this board. this is a REALLY stupid question.

 

[Pariah]

Vick IS overrated.

I'd take him over our QBs in a heartbeat.

 

[Duckjake]

Yeah, all of Vick's passing troubles are because of the wr's. The guy just doesn't throw the ball accurately. Have you watched him play? I was just talking about this to a buddy of mine. The wr's that Atlanta has had can't really be analyzed because Vick misses them by so much on the rare occasion that he actually throws to them. Unless Crumpler is standing in a defender free, 10 yard bubble Vick probably won't complete the pass.

That's nuts. If Vick were as inaccurate as you contend teams would overplay the run and Atlanta wouldn't be able to move the ball on the ground no matter how good their line is. Why they'd be able to play 10 in the box because the only person they'd have to cover would be Crumpler.

Vick is a better runner than anyone on the Cardinals. We'd have an instant running game. Besides our receivers are used to inacurrate QB's.

Vick would be perfect for our offense. Shipp for -1, JJ for -1, Vick scramble for first down. Jump ball to Larry for 14. Dump pass to Shipp for 6, Vick scramble for first down. Overthrow Boldin, overthrow BJ, Vick Scramble for first down.

Substitute McCown sacked for -8 for the Vick scrambles and you have just about what we do now.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Yeah, all of Vick's passing troubles are because of the wr's. The guy just doesn't throw the ball accurately. Have you watched him play? I was just talking about this to a buddy of mine. The wr's that Atlanta has had can't really be analyzed because Vick misses them by so much on the rare occasion that he actually throws to them. Unless Crumpler is standing in a defender free, 10 yard bubble Vick probably won't complete the pass.
So, does Big Ben get the same consideration? Pittsburgh lost when he was out of the lineup so it must be all him right? He comes back, they win. Pittsburgh's defense and running game are irrelevant.
Boy, Vick sure seems to have a crappy supporting cast holding him back. I wonder when his career long injury keeping him from completing more than 50% of his passes will heal?
That would be a very tough call. I don't think either choice is bad, obviously, but Marino had a lot more experience coming from behind so that might give him the slightest edge in my book. I think he could read the defense as well as Montana and throw the ball better so it would all come down to who was going to support the qb in this hypothetical situation.
Like when Kordell Stewart was 13-3? Or Trent Dilfer or Tommy Maddox?

I hate to bring up the facts but...

Vick has had only one season where he completed less than 50% of his passes, his rookie year. Last year he completed 56.4%. In addition, he has only thrown more INTs than TDs in his rookie year.

Please don't let reality stand in the way of your exaggerations though.

 

[moklerman]

Vick has had only one season where he completed less than 50% of his passes, his rookie year.

I guess the fact that he's at 53.5% for his career is a non issue to you. He's completed 50% or less of his passes in 21 games during his career so I think that my example isn't much of an exaggeration. This is the NFL and 50% is attrocious much less being under that mark.

In addition, he has only thrown more INTs than TDs in his rookie year.

True, but other than his one truly productive year in 2002, he has a 1 to 1 interception ratio. Four years of mediocrity and one year of production.

Please don't let reality stand in the way of your exaggerations though.

Michael Vick is an overhyped, overrated, non-qb that would be on the bench for most teams based on actual production if not for his celebrity.

I find it hard to believe that people really don't think that a guy like...Jeff Blake wouldn't be benched and run out of town for putting up the kinds of numbers that Vick does. At least criticized. What does Vick get? Oh, don't pay attention to those terrible numbers, "he" just wins.

That's nuts. If Vick were as inaccurate as you contend teams would overplay the run and Atlanta wouldn't be able to move the ball on the ground no matter how good their line is. Why they'd be able to play 10 in the box because the only person they'd have to cover would be Crumpler.

Is it nuts? I'm sure you believe I'm exaggerating to make a point but have you ever really watched Vick try to throw to his wr's? Even during the MNF game he overthrew (a gross understatement) wide open wr's on a consistant basis. I think it just illustrates how good their line has been the past two years.

Think about it. Opposing teams are always going to make some kind of concession in terms of what their focus is going to be. Vick is averaging 171 total yards per game. Yeah, 50 of it's on the ground but if you knew your defense was only going to give up 171 yards to the opposing qb, you'd take it every time wouldn't you? Plus, Atlanta's offense is 17th in the league in total offense. That means the defense is playing well. They don't allow a lot of points and they take the ball away a lot.

Vick is a better runner than anyone on the Cardinals. We'd have an instant running game. Besides our receivers are used to inacurrate QB's.

Your optimism is admirable but I'm not as confident that if you took away the support of a strong running game, added poor pass blocking and took away his dominant TE that Vick would instantly improve the Cardinals' offense.

 

[cardsfan22]

If you took away all that then of course they would be a losing team. you make it sound like vick has nothing to do with them winning games. you have to gameplan for vick and that makes his teamates better.

and vick and blake??????????????? thats a joke

and last time i checked, winning games is the goal of the NFL.

you make good points, but vick is a big part of why the falcons win games

 

[moklerman]

G Com Att % yards ypa td int rush yds td rating

14 215 389 55.3 2670 6.9 16 12 | 63 332 2 77.6

15 181 321 56.4 2313 7.2 14 12 | 120 902 3 78.1

One of these is Blake and one is Vick. We all agree that Blake wasn't regarded as a great qb, right? So, if the numbers are comparable, which one is overrated?

*By the way, guess which qb lost his job for putting up those numbers?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

G Com Att % yards ypa td int rush yds td rating

14 215 389 55.3 2670 6.9 16 12 | 63 332 2 77.6

15 181 321 56.4 2313 7.2 14 12 | 120 902 3 78.1

One of these is Blake and one is Vick. We all agree that Blake wasn't regarded as a great qb, right? So, if the numbers are comparable, which one is overrated?

*By the way, guess which qb lost his job for putting up those numbers?

I see you foolishly mention Blake's 1999 campaign with the Bengals as if it means something. Sorry to be the one to point this out, but the following offseason the Saints gave him a fat contract to be their starter so to say he "lost his job" is factually incorrect.

And yes, I would take Vick's year over Blake's (even though after that year many NFL teams thought Blake was worth a good investment) due to Vick accoutning for more offense than Jeff.

 

[Southpaw]

I said it once, and i'll say it again. Vick is the most overrated football player in the NFL...Yes, he can run, but it doesn't make him a great or even a good quarterback...THe defense, and the running game makes Micheal Vick...He is nothing but average

You are absolutely correct in your analysis sir.

Vick would be an unbelievable slot back. 3rd down back. That Falcon club would be unbeatable with a seasoned Schaub at QB and Vick playing a skill position. The defense is scary good.

Vick has no WR passing game. The kiss of death would be getting drafted by Atalanta as a WR in this offense.

Doesn't matter, as Vick will be taken apart by a head hunting LB/Safety before the season is up.

 

[Russ Smith]

That's nuts. If Vick were as inaccurate as you contend teams would overplay the run and Atlanta wouldn't be able to move the ball on the ground no matter how good their line is. Why they'd be able to play 10 in the box because the only person they'd have to cover would be Crumpler.

Vick is a better runner than anyone on the Cardinals. We'd have an instant running game. Besides our receivers are used to inacurrate QB's.

Vick would be perfect for our offense. Shipp for -1, JJ for -1, Vick scramble for first down. Jump ball to Larry for 14. Dump pass to Shipp for 6, Vick scramble for first down. Overthrow Boldin, overthrow BJ, Vick Scramble for first down.

Substitute McCown sacked for -8 for the Vick scrambles and you have just about what we do now.

I'd take Vick in a heartbeat but he really IS inaccurate. What tends to happen is that Vick is so dangerous running the ball teams use LBs and safeties to spy on Vick and you end up with huge gaps in the middle of the field which is why Crumpler's stats are so good. Not that Crumpler isn't talented but you put him on another team I bet his yards per catch falls off, he gets huge YPC in Atlanta because of Vick.

But I do somewhat agree with Moklerman on WR's, not that I think Atlanta has great ones, but they're not as bad as the numbers would lead you to believe, Vick simply isn't a very accurate passer and in the offense they run, timing and accuracy are everything, if it's not there, there's no YAC. Most of Vicks' big pass plays are broken plays, he's running around, WR breaks off pattern, takes off, Vick gets it to him. Big plays are great but they rarely get them in the pass game off set plays.

Vick would help our run game immensely and we'd get those broken plays downfield but I guarantee you the numbers on Boldin and fitz would come down.

 

[Duckjake]

Doesn't matter, as Vick will be taken apart by a head hunting LB/Safety before the season is up.

A lot of other QB's will too. They just get it from the blind side while standing in the pocket.

 

[moklerman]

I see you foolishly mention Blake's 1999 campaign with the Bengals as if it means something.

It means that Blake put up mediocre numbers, the Bengals had a high draft pick (Akili Smith) and chose not to keep/match Blake. They gave up on him as the starter.

I think your memory of Blake may be a little obscured. After productive season's in 1995 & 1996 he was highly regarded but three years of struggles, putting up Vick-like numbers in 1999, the Bengals let him go. The Saints signed him but chose to go with a rookie after Blake came back from injury.

 

[TheAnswer42]

Vick is the best running back in the NFL, hands down. Unfortunatly he plays QB.


Someone said he has a cannon for an arm. So did Quincy Carter. QC also had good accuracy on his long balls. However, his decision making, vision and short passes left quite a lot to be desired.

Vick is the same, but without the accuracy and with fantastic running ability.

Vick should have been a made a RB, Atlanta gotten a real QB, then they could run the HB pass and play fake all over the place and would be the most confounding offense in NFL history.

DEs are starting to figure Vick out. Whatever you do, don't get behind him. No running lanes means he can't get away and use his speed to burn you for 10+ yards.

 

[kerouac9]

DEs are starting to figure Vick out. Whatever you do, don't get behind him. No running lanes means he can't get away and use his speed to burn you for 10+ yards.

Oh, that must be why he keeps winning games.

 

[Southpaw]

Oh, that must be why he keeps winning games.

Good defenses are catching up to him. The bad defenses blitz him and he kills them. The good ones contain him and force him to throw to WRs, which he can't do. Indicative of why he will throw up a 10 for 26 passing stat.

You can't pinch him with DEs. He will just take off. Play the edge and watch him miss his receivers.

 

[conraddobler]

We held him in check and DG knew exactly how to play him.

We lost the game because Josh fumbled like a bizzilion times but honestly the way we played him is the way to do it.

Don't rush him, hold your blocks, clog the lanes and let him throw.

If he got to be even an average passer, he'd shred that and be all world.

 

[moklerman]

I've often wondered what it must be like for him throwing the ball. He has the strongest arm I can remember seeing but he seems to have such little control of it. Not just with the accuracy but with touch and velocity. Like trying to get a bullet to come out of a gun at different speeds. Whenever he tries to put some touch on the ball his windup and delivery are so slowed down and deliberate that it's almost amazing. Every time I've seen him he practically kills one of his receivers that's only 10 yards away.

I think that's why guy's like Montana or Brady or the like seem to make all of their receivers look good. They may not throw the farthest but at least it's humanly possible to catch one of their passes. Elway had the same problem for years. When he got old and lost some heat off the old fastball, he became a much better qb because he had to learn to rely on timing rather than forcing a bullet into every situation.