It will take years to undo the mess that Graves has created!!!

[Duckjake]

I guess Im the only one who is still willing to admit that I loved the trade last year.

Ill take 2 middle first rounders over one top 10 anyday of the week and twice on sunday. The odds are much more favorabe that youll get someone that contributes and at a fraction of the cost.

Not if it's the Cardinals drafting. I'd rather have one first round pick that can't play than two first round picks that can't play any day.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Great post Russ.

I think that's the first time I've heard that "take", and it sure makes a lot of sense to me. Everything would fit that way.

Well thought out, and well put. It may not be totally right, but I'll bet if it's not...its pretty darn close.


...and SWD... we agree once again?

Sure the individual people involved in any particular year (and team "needs") at the high first round certainly are major influencing factors....

but yes, I agree, I tihnk most of the time the 2 mid first rounders are going to do more for the team than 1 outrageously "high" paid one too.

I think the odds of long term getting more "bang for your buck" are better that way. It's certainly not a "boneheaded" move, especially when you see what's happeing with $$$$$$ and agents and "high five" or "top 10" picks these days

 

[CaptTurbo]

Not if it's the Cardinals drafting. I'd rather have one first round pick that can't play than two first round picks that can't play any day.

Thats just the thing. your more likely to bust with the 1 pick in the top ten then 2 a little lower. Not only that it will cost you alot more as well.

 

[Duckjake]

Thats just the thing. your more likely to bust with the 1 pick in the top ten then 2 a little lower. Not only that it will cost you alot more as well.

Doesn't apply if you are the Cardinals because all their first round picks are busts. I think that the Cards scouts must spend all their time at Hooters 'cause they sure know a lot about busts.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Doesn't apply if you are the Cardinals because all their first round picks are busts. I think that the Cards scouts must spend all their time at Hooters 'cause they sure know a lot about busts.

At least its for a good cause lol

 

[Tangodnzr]

....forgot to mention....

I hope you ARE right Russ, that would be encouraging to the situation right now.

I think it would be reassuring simply because it would be an indicator that Graves and the Bidwills really do seem like a "good fit", AND conjunctively, although willing to go to great lengths to let the HC do what he wants, they still are not going to let anyone else disrupt their "plan".

And I do think they have one..Certainly as I think any good plan needs to, it is constantly "upgraded". Remember how much we heard all about that "a while back"....and Mac seemed to be part of it.

I've always felt that especially the Bidwills (and Bill in particular) really wanted Mac to succeed...I think a lot of people did. Mac was part of the team, not "outside" it. Which Denny Green has a tendancy to bring a certain amount of, to the table, with HIS ego.
But Alas....like Jake...it just wasn't to be.

As much as I like Mac...it seemed it indeed was time for him to go....and he was given every opportunity. I don't agree with all the bashing of draft and talent the past few years.

I think Mac's shortcomings were all pretty clear by the end of the year. But going IN to the year....I know I still thought things might be OK.

It would also show me that the "team" will also not hestitate to pull the trigger if things AREN"T working out in conjunction with the "plan".

As Nidan alluded to earlier....

I think it more accurate to say Green is MB and RGs man, as I think it was a joint decison.

and they will still not allow someone to usurp, hijack, or disrupt those plans, for whatever reason, .....and to me, anyway....I like that, and I DO thnk its reassuring.

 

[nidan]

They aren't holding hands, are they?

No, they aren't quite that friendly

 

[nidan]

We had long debates on that pre draft, I kept stating I wanted Leftwich, but was convinced we would not take him because mac was in his last year and wasn't going to play a rookie QB. A lot of people told me I'm nuts, but I'm a big believer in Bill Bidwill saying what he means, and meaning what he says.

That was not the reason we didn't take him

 

[Tangodnzr]

That was not the reason we didn't take him

OK, Nidan, let me ask you this:

Do you think Russ's general train of thoght as to Bidwill's/Graves making every effort to give Mac what he wanted, yet holding firm to the "gotta see improvement or else" is accurate?

 

[Russ Smith]

That was not the reason we didn't take him

So you can't tell us why?

THere were questions about Leftwich's health(the foot injury) etc but I'd sure love to know the big mystery behind why we didn't take him.

It's hard to believe it was because we loved Josh, Mac sure didn't act like he did based on how often he played him.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

That was not the reason we didn't take him

This is ********....Its like when you were a kid and someone said "I have a big secret but I cant tell you" If the only thing you have to contribute to this thread is "Nope thats not correct" or "Nope your wrong" then just dont say anything......

I thought what Russ and Tango concluded was about as close to the truth as we will probably ever know.

I am sticking with their stories!

 

[Russ Smith]

This is ********....Its like when you were a kid and someone said "I have a big secret but I cant tell you" If the only thing you have to contribute to this thread is "Nope thats not correct" or "Nope your wrong" then just dont say anything......

I thought what Russ and Tango concluded was about as close to the truth as we will probably ever know.

I am sticking with their stories!

I don't care if I'm wrong, but it it is a little frustrating to hear "no that's not right" but then no "here's what really happened."

But I understand Skorp and Nidan want to keep their confidences and I can respect that.

Just would love to know why we felt Leftwich wasn't the best choice, it's not like we gave Blake a ton of money, or had any misconception that he would be our QB for the next 5 years. And from what we've been told, Graves wasn't all that sold on Josh, and Mac had to be pushed into playing him, os it would surprise me if Josh' potential was behind it.

 

[Red Fury]

That was not the reason we didn't take him

Nidan,

Tell me why they didn't take Leftwich, Ben R., Rivers.... were they scared off by the contracts that these QB's would have commanded?

 

[kerouac9]

So you can't tell us why?

THere were questions about Leftwich's health(the foot injury) etc but I'd sure love to know the big mystery behind why we didn't take him.

It's hard to believe it was because we loved Josh, Mac sure didn't act like he did based on how often he played him.

I think we passed on him because we already had our designated "QB of the Future in Josh McCown," who was only in his second season, and still had a lot of promise. The last thing that (I think) Graves wanted to create was what happened in Detroit with Harrington and McMahon.

Mac didn't play McCown because he was trying to save his job, but Mac started out the season pretty secure. If Mac had gone 7-9, maybe 6-10, he'd still be the coach of this team. I remember getting beat down last season for talking about how overrated Mac was as an HC and was an idiot.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think we passed on him because we already had our designated "QB of the Future in Josh McCown," who was only in his second season, and still had a lot of promise. The last thing that (I think) Graves wanted to create was what happened in Detroit with Harrington and McMahon.

Mac didn't play McCown because he was trying to save his job, but Mac started out the season pretty secure. If Mac had gone 7-9, maybe 6-10, he'd still be the coach of this team. I remember getting beat down last season for talking about how overrated Mac was as an HC and was an idiot.

My only concern there is a coach in the last year of his contract with the Cardinals is never "pretty secure."

I forget where it came from but supposedly last year there was a point where Mac was basically "told" to play Josh, he even came out and said that Blake wa a victim of circumstance and wasn't being benched for anything he had done wrong.

Not like Fitz was inexpensive.

My initial belief last year was it was money, they didn't want to pay a huge bonus to a guy who wouldn't start right away, it's been awhile since we've taken a QB #1.

 

[kerouac9]

My only concern there is a coach in the last year of his contract with the Cardinals is never "pretty secure."

I forget where it came from but supposedly last year there was a point where Mac was basically "told" to play Josh, he even came out and said that Blake wa a victim of circumstance and wasn't being benched for anything he had done wrong.

Not like Fitz was inexpensive.

My initial belief last year was it was money, they didn't want to pay a huge bonus to a guy who wouldn't start right away, it's been awhile since we've taken a QB #1.

(1) Mac had two years left on his contract going into the 2003 season. The Cards are paying him right now.

(2) It was after the Cleveland game (I think) that we were told that Graves demanded Mac start Josh McCown. Mac was still telling that tired "Best chance to win" story. Checking last year's schedule, it may have been after the Chicago game.

(3) I don't think that it's a money thing. Didn't then, don't now. I think it was a football decision (that Graves whiffed on) to trade quality for quantity and start building a young core of talent for his HC pick.

 

[football karma]

Why no Leftwich in 2003?

Because Mac needed to win that year to save his job-- its the same reason they traded down -- they felt they needed three players out of the draft that could contribute immediately.

While it is hard to criticize a draft that left you with a Rookie of the Year,

the above two examples are perfect reasons why you need a strong GM (who thinks long term and strategically in the draft) as well as a good coach.

Denny can afford to draft strategically this year and next because he has time -- Mac didnt.

 

[Tangodnzr]

I I remember getting beat down last season for talking about how overrated Mac was as an HC and was an idiot.

...as well you should have...as well you should have.
Mac had some shortcomings....but to call him an idiot is not right either.

Once again, I agree with Russ, I never got the feeling, especially with Graves that McCown being the key to the future was one of the top priorities of concern, at the time.

Graves generally, if anything, seemed to come off to me as being pretty lukewarm in any of his "endorsements" of him.

I don't really care if I know exactly why they didn't take Leftwich....I'm just going to assume they did indeed have a viable reason. Sure, for curiosity's sake it would be nice to know....but I don't think it's really a germaine point ....now, especially.

Leftwich MAY turn out to be Superman, but it hasn't happened yet, and as much as NFL runs those incessant Jags training camp videos so much, I stilll don't think he's YET proven to be the Cat's meow and fulfilling some of the high expectations of him.

The one thing I've always felt was that the run on DT's and DE's ...AFTER....they made the trade with New Orleans, seemed to have caught a lot of people (not just the Cards), a little by surprise, and THAT may have very much influenced who we did end up taking.
At the time of the trade itself, I thought it was a good move, for the most part, feeling only they may have gave up a little more than they would have needed to to do it.
And that Andy Reid left a few jocks hanging when he made the move up ahead of the Cards.

This was discussed to death, last year.

I still think that maybe the Cards draft room (whomever that really was) got schooled a little that day.

 

[kerouac9]

...as well you should have...as well you should have.
Mac had some shortcomings....but to call him an idiot is not right either.

Really? In his years here, what were his savviest personnel, in-game strategic, and/or tactical moves? What players benefitted most from his tuteledge?

Mac may be an incisive chess player, cogent reader of literature, and sharp-eyed painter, but a smart football coach? There's no evidence of that.

Some of us saw that well ahead of the rest of you.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Really? In his years here, what were his savviest personnel, in-game strategic, and/or tactical moves? What players benefitted most from his tuteledge?

Mac may be an incisive chess player, cogent reader of literature, and sharp-eyed painter, but a smart football coach? There's no evidence of that.

Some of us saw that well ahead of the rest of you.

I don't think many people, and I'm certainly one of "them", that would deny that in-game stategy etc, and getting players developed were Mac's biggest shortcomings.

But once again, in typical K9 fashion, you accentuate only the negative.

I happen to think Mac did generally draft some decent talent. I also think he his charismatic leadership and ability to motivate people were strong points.

Also s0-20 hindsight would say that some overly conservative "ways" ended up biting him in the butt too.
Too trusting and loyal to "some" undeserving assistants. Too me the biggest reasons for Mac's departure were: Joe Greene and Mac's inept handling of Jerry Sullivan and the OC position.

Those two, to me were the cornerstone, (along with the inept game-time management...but which that, itself was partially a result of the SullivanOC "problem".

Once Olson was fired, Tuna enticed Warhop to Dallas, and was reportedly trying to get Sullivan too, I think the fatal mistake was maybe "panicking" and shooting himself in the foot in an attempt to keep Sullivan here.
To me that is what really ended up being his Waterloo.

They didn't get the DT or DE they may have really wanted in the draft, Greene hadn't developed anyone, and thusly, once again, no effective pass rush, and the offense was a chinese fire drill under Sullivan/Geep Chryst.

Expecting Pace to save the day, under the circumstances was about like asking for a divine miracle.

 

[Russ Smith]

Mac may be an incisive chess player, cogent reader of literature, and sharp-eyed painter, but a smart football coach? There's no evidence of that.

Some of us saw that well ahead of the rest of you.

Hey some of us were complaining the day he was made the permanent coach.

I like Mac, nice guy. I never understood for a minute how the coach of one of the worst defenses in the NFL, gets promoted to HC when Tobin gets fired .Either you're saying Tobin was really coaching the defense (in which case why promote a DC who wasn't even in charge of the defense?), or we think our defense stinks in spite of him not because of him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Once again I hear this cry and it based on no knowledge of just how much control Rod Graves had vs Mac.

The assumption in the email is that it was a RG gig and you do not know that.

What I do know is that RG wanted Denny and seems to have a good relationship with him. This suggests that maybe Rod had less control of last years draft than you believe.

you know, you MIGHT be right. but you MIGHT be wrong. what i ALWAYS hear though, is "blame the guy who's no longer here and love the guy who still is!" well, even with that mantra the cards have continued to suck, so i say spread the blame to EVERYONE involved. last year's crap belonged to everyone involved with the cardinals. no one gets a free pass. to suggest otherwise is to continue running on the treadmill going nowhere.

 

[kerouac9]

Hey some of us were complaining the day he was made the permanent coach.

And I was one of those guys. I called in to the Cards' post-game show when he was made permanent and decried the "rah-rah" qualities and said that we should hire an experienced head coach. Admittedly, it was Jim Mora's name that I was pimping, but he probably would have been better than Mac.

 

[lrk27]

First of all, without the trade, the Cards would wanted Suggs, not Leftwich. Mac and his staff loved Suggs. The call to trade down came from way above Mac. It had nothing to do with playing a rookie QB and had nothing to do with McCown. It was a political move from above to avoid drafting Suggs. Do NOT blame McGinnis for last years draft, it was out of his hands. He had say in the personnel they drafted, as did Graves, but he did not make the call on the trade.

 

[Russ Smith]

First of all, without the trade, the Cards would wanted Suggs, not Leftwich. Mac and his staff loved Suggs. The call to trade down came from way above Mac. It had nothing to do with playing a rookie QB and had nothing to do with McCown. It was a political move from above to avoid drafting Suggs. Do NOT blame McGinnis for last years draft, it was out of his hands. He had say in the personnel they drafted, as did Graves, but he did not make the call on the trade.

Nidan said there was a reason we didn't draft Leftwich, that's what we were really asking about.

I have a pretty good idea why we didn't take Suggs, concerns over was he a tweener, and the incident that he got arrested over.

Last year he made the decision look stupid. I'm still convinced in the defense we played last year he doesn't touch his sack total in Baltimore, but I bet he gets more than Pace did.Suggs impressed me, much better pass rusher than I expected.