Its Official: We have a QB Controversy

[Cbus cardsfan]

I was not claiming someone else mentioned his age first, I was talking about me using the FACT that he is 27 and a "developing" QB against him is somehow something that only qualifies as propaganda or 'hate' (which was the term you used).

Here's another FACT, in 1998 Kurt Warner made his first NFL team as 3rd stringer for the Rams. Interestingly, he was born in 1971. That would make him 27 and a "developing" QB. In 1999 at the age of 28, this developing QB threw for 4,353 yards and 41 TD's.

 

[gmabel830]

Here's another FACT, in 1998 Kurt Warner made his first NFL team as 3rd stringer for the Rams. Interestingly, he was born in 1971. That would make him 27 and a "developing" QB. In 1999 at the age of 28, this developing QB threw for 4,353 yards and 41 TD's.

Also worth pointing out that in his first 5 games with the Cardinals, Warner had like 2 TDs and 5 INTs. What a bust that guy was!

 

[TJ]

We don't even know if we've got a QB or not.

With our O-line, Joe Montana would look like a rank-amateur.

The so-called "3-step drop" is closer to a one-step & Duck! kind of deal.T

That's why one QB can look good for a bunch of plays (& even a whole game) and awful the next. It's hard to be consistent when you have less than one second to make the right decision and execute properly.

StL has a similar problem - their O-line is a shambles (mainly due to injury) and Bradford looks more like Skelton or Kolb than he does Otto Graham.

Ding ding ding!!!!! We have a winner!!!!

Wanna know why our QB play for the most part has been lackluster? Read the bold.

 

[TJ]

Also worth pointing out that in his first 5 games with the Cardinals, Warner had like 2 TDs and 5 INTs. What a bust that guy was!

Dont forget the countless fumbles, which is why he got benched in 2006 for Leinart

 

[Assface]

Here's another FACT, in 1998 Kurt Warner made his first NFL team as 3rd stringer for the Rams. Interestingly, he was born in 1971. That would make him 27 and a "developing" QB. In 1999 at the age of 28, this developing QB threw for 4,353 yards and 41 TD's.

Kurt Warner is a unique situation. He started a grand total of 1 year and played at University of Northern Iowa in the mighty Gateway Conference. Notable is the fact that in his only season of playing in college he was named all conference. After not being drafted he was out of football for a while before playing in the Arena league for 2 years. He led his team to the championship game and was also first team All-Arena both years.

The 27 year old "developing" QB was successful everywhere he went, he was simply underscouted and never had enough exposure to get noticed.

Kolb on the other hand was a starter for 4 years and University of Houston and after being drafted in the second round spent 4 years in the NFL on the same team, under the same coaching staff, being groomed to be the heir apparent to their current starter at the time. He wasn't a FCS or D2 player making a huge leap in competition nor was he a raw 1 year starter he needed time to hone his skills. The fact that he's still considered a developmental project after all this time is a major red flag. I can understand him taking time to learn a new offense but he's been struggling with basic QB play.

 

[Phrazbit]

Here's another FACT, in 1998 Kurt Warner made his first NFL team as 3rd stringer for the Rams. Interestingly, he was born in 1971. That would make him 27 and a "developing" QB. In 1999 at the age of 28, this developing QB threw for 4,353 yards and 41 TD's.

I dont recall the Rams throwing a totally unproven Warner a 60 million dollar contract and and trading a starter and a 2nd round pick to get him... maybe you can check that FACT for me to see if it relates.

And for every Kurt Warner there are 50 AJ Feeleys.

 

[Assface]

Also worth pointing out that in his first 5 games with the Cardinals, Warner had like 2 TDs and 5 INTs. What a bust that guy was!

Also worth pointing out is that he was playing in a conventional offense under DG. At no point in his career has Kurt Warner been that great playing under center. He was at his best in a shotgun formation with 4 wide as evidenced by his success under Mike Martz and his final 2 1/2 years in AZ when Whisenhunt totally abandoned using the TE and running game.

Also worth pointing out is that Kurt Warner had previously won a Superbowl and an MVP award. Kolb's big accomplishment is that he had a few games with 300 yards. One is a guy who early in his pro career was a top 3 QB in the league and the other is a guy who's had a Josh McCown like career thus far.

 

[john h]

2-0 vs. 1-6... I do not see much of a controversy.

Should that not be 2-1 vs 1-6? The one loss by Skelton was the worst halves by a Cardinal QB I have ever seen. What a controversy? It is like choosing death by an electric chair or a guillotine.

Does any team in the NFL have worse QB's than we do? I just read Orton was released. Teams are releasing QB's who are better than our starters. I am not sure Matt Leinart could not be better than what we have seen.

 

[nashman]

In phrazbits' world any Qb worth anything must be able to pick up and run a new offense in 7 games with no offseason, terrible oline protection, terrible playcalling, and a coach who refuses to run an offense that doesn't throw 80% of the time! It's actually not even worth arguing about as Kolb when healthy will be the starter and we can only hope this clueless coaching staff let's Kolb play enough to know if we got something or not before he gets axes like leinart. Whiz is clearly not a QB friendly coach I think that much has been established!

 

[john h]

I won't have an issue either way. While Skelton is 2-0, we're not going anywhere this season so it's not like pulling him in favor of Kolb is going to ruin our playoff momentum or something..

They spent a lot of money on Kolb and I'm not ready to totally write him off as a career back up..

Personally, I don't think either guy is a bigtime NFL QB, but while at the start of the year I would have said Kolb has a bigger upside, at this point I kinda think it's 50/50 which guy is better..

I'll reiterate I wouldn't tie my wagon to either at this point long term, but for the rest of this season I really don't have a preference. I could see the argument for either guy.

I really do not care who starts. If it is Kolb maybe he can turn it around. If it is Skelton he can hardly afford another game like he had Sunday or he just might be history next year. Just a note: We still lack a running game but our coach still tries to run. Wells is ok but he cannot do it all by himself. We better be thinking about another decent runner next year even though we have our #2 RB pick coming off an injury. I do not know how he will respond after such an injury but you cannot have to many RB's as they have the shortest careers of any position if football. Next year will be a bust also if we do not resolve the QB problem and so will ever other year until we find a real NFL QB. This has been an ongoing problem since Kurts short stay with us. He showed what a real QB can do for a team. SF QB was thought to be traded this year but the new coach apparently liked him enough to keep him and now win something like 8 in a row. What ever magic Harbaugh brought to SF should be bottled. He basically has the same players the team had last year and they were awful. They do have a real running game.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well, if you saw the fullback on the field 3 times in the first two dozen Cardinals plays, then clearly the Cards were primarily utilizing their max protect package for most of the time. Especially since nearly 70% of their passing attempts were out of shotgun.

Take a look at your original post again, Russ:



So... we the Cards playing their "usual" spread the field with multiple receivers and have the QB playing out of the shotgun, or were they playing the special max-protect scheme utilizing a FB and/or multiple TEs a lot of the time?

I'll stipulate that the Cards possibly weren't in 4WR most of the time early in the game, if you'll agree that you were wrong, and the Cards clearly were in their usual ineffective offensive scheme instead of what worked for them the past two weeks.

Against Baltimore Kolb only had to go a handful of yards to pick up points. Compare the field position against Baltimore to what Skelton had against San Francisco, and it's not even close. Once Baltimore started giving the Cards the ball on their own side of the field, Kolb revealed himself to be awful once again.

Skelton had a bad game. There's no question about that. But I'm not sure it's fair to compare Skelton's one awful game on the road so unfavorably to Kolb who was facing Pittsburgh with half their front seven on the inactive list at home and Kolb where the D was giving them the ball on Baltimore's 30 a handful of times.

But if there's no context that can be presented to you where Kolb wasn't an effective quarterback against Baltimore and Pittsburgh--one game we lost because Kolb couldn't lead the offense anywhere for two and a half quarters, and one where it was a blowout all the way through--then there's really no talking to you about it.

Both guys suck, but one is getting paid ten times as much.

I didn't say Kolb was good against them YOU said Skelton was better against SF than Kolb was. He wasn't, he was horrible. The coach went into the game thinking we can throw on these guys, Mariucci said the 49ers secondary is suspect. And the 49ers said we're not even going to disguise our coverages or blitz we'll rush 4 guys, and watch his eyes and then guess if he'll miss high, left or right(or 2 of the 3) and try to catch it.

He was nearly as bad as Kolb was 2nd half against Bal the problem is Kolb was actually much better in the firs thalf than Skelton ever was against SF.

The only reason Skelton didn't get to pad his stats was his coach was AFRAID to leave him in there and destroy his confidence with 2-3 more picks.

 

[Phrazbit]

In phrazbits' world any Qb worth anything must be able to pick up and run a new offense in 7 games with no offseason, terrible oline protection, terrible playcalling, and a coach who refuses to run an offense that doesn't throw 80% of the time! It's actually not even worth arguing about as Kolb when healthy will be the starter and we can only hope this clueless coaching staff let's Kolb play enough to know if we got something or not before he gets axes like leinart. Whiz is clearly not a QB friendly coach I think that much has been established!

Another sound counterpoint. You should debate for a living.

You sold me. I dont think we can properly evalutate this trade for the next several years. When 2014 rolls around if Kolb has really come into his own as a QB and led the Cardinals to a THRILLING 8-8 season and we can officially say to ourselves "Kolb is our guy, I have been waiting for an 8 win team for ages".

If that happens you can officially throw it all in my face and say "I TOLD YOU KOLB COULD BECOME MEDIOCRE!"

 

[kerouac9]

I didn't say Kolb was good against them YOU said Skelton was better against SF than Kolb was. He wasn't, he was horrible. The coach went into the game thinking we can throw on these guys, Mariucci said the 49ers secondary is suspect. And the 49ers said we're not even going to disguise our coverages or blitz we'll rush 4 guys, and watch his eyes and then guess if he'll miss high, left or right(or 2 of the 3) and try to catch it.

He was nearly as bad as Kolb was 2nd half against Bal the problem is Kolb was actually much better in the firs thalf than Skelton ever was against SF.

The only reason Skelton didn't get to pad his stats was his coach was AFRAID to leave him in there and destroy his confidence with 2-3 more picks.

Huh? Where? The closest I could find was this: http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2548510&postcount=110

And there I say that Skelton has been in the aggregate a better QB than Kolb has, even without excluding the San Francisco game. If you think that Kolb's merely below-average performances against Baltimore and Pittsburgh make up for his wretched performances against Minnesota, Seattle, New York, and Washington, then more power to you, I guess.

I'd rather have a guy who's going to be all right in 2/3rds of his games and awful in 1/3 of them than the guy who's going to be terrible in 5/6ths of his games and barely average in the remaining 1/6th.

 

[Russ Smith]

Huh? Where? The closest I could find was this: http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2548510&postcount=110

And there I say that Skelton has been in the aggregate a better QB than Kolb has, even without excluding the San Francisco game. If you think that Kolb's merely below-average performances against Baltimore and Pittsburgh make up for his wretched performances against Minnesota, Seattle, New York, and Washington, then more power to you, I guess.

I'd rather have a guy who's going to be all right in 2/3rds of his games and awful in 1/3 of them than the guy who's going to be terrible in 5/6ths of his games and barely average in the remaining 1/6th.

"But all he has to do is be better than Kevin Kolb, and I think he's shown that he's better than Kevin Kolb, including yesterday."


I took that to mean he was better than Kevin Kolb yesterday. now since Kolb was inactive I guess technically true, but Kolb played better against 2 elite Defenses than Sketon did against SF.

Nobody has said Kolb has played great but on the heels of Skelton's game the prior week which should have had 2-3 more picks, his game Sunday pretty much confirmed he's not the guy right now.

As soon as Kolb is healthy he'll be the starter again, you can complain about that all you want but it's the logical thing to do unless Skelton suddenly shows marked improvement.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Kurt Warner is a unique situation. He started a grand total of 1 year and played at University of Northern Iowa in the mighty Gateway Conference. Notable is the fact that in his only season of playing in college he was named all conference. After not being drafted he was out of football for a while before playing in the Arena league for 2 years. He led his team to the championship game and was also first team All-Arena both years.

The 27 year old "developing" QB was successful everywhere he went, he was simply underscouted and never had enough exposure to get noticed.

Kolb on the other hand was a starter for 4 years and University of Houston and after being drafted in the second round spent 4 years in the NFL on the same team, under the same coaching staff, being groomed to be the heir apparent to their current starter at the time. He wasn't a FCS or D2 player making a huge leap in competition nor was he a raw 1 year starter he needed time to hone his skills. The fact that he's still considered a developmental project after all this time is a major red flag. I can understand him taking time to learn a new offense but he's been struggling with basic QB play.

I agree that Warner was a unique situation. I was just pointing it out for thOse who like to speak in absolutes. But I highly doubt he was underscouted. If you're a NFL talent, the scouts will find you. He had been in camps prior to 1998.

 

[Phrazbit]

"But all he has to do is be better than Kevin Kolb, and I think he's shown that he's better than Kevin Kolb, including yesterday."


I took that to mean he was better than Kevin Kolb yesterday. now since Kolb was inactive I guess technically true, but Kolb played better against 2 elite Defenses than Sketon did against SF.

Nobody has said Kolb has played great but on the heels of Skelton's game the prior week which should have had 2-3 more picks, his game Sunday pretty much confirmed he's not the guy right now.

As soon as Kolb is healthy he'll be the starter again, you can complain about that all you want but it's the logical thing to do unless Skelton suddenly shows marked improvement.

Kolb was a total disaster in the Ravens game. Did we even have 10 yards passing in the 2nd half? Outside of our defense handing Kolb the ball inside the 25 our offense didnt do jack squat. To claim he was competent against an elite defense and use the Ravens game as an example is absurd.

And he blew in the Steeler game too.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Kolb was a total disaster in the Ravens game. Did we even have 10 yards passing in the 2nd half? Outside of our defense handing Kolb the ball inside the 25 our offense didnt do jack squat. To claim he was competent against an elite defense and use the Ravens game as an example is absurd.

And he blew in the Steeler game too.

Howver the Cards averaged more points per game with Kolb than they have with Skelton who has had 12/21/ and 0 for 11 ppg while Kolb put about 20/game.

 

[Phrazbit]

Howver the Cards averaged more points per game with Kolb than they have with Skelton who has had 12/21/ and 0 for 11 ppg while Kolb put about 20/game.

And Skelton has put together 2 game tying or winning drives in 3 starts and won 2 games while Kolb has been put in that situation 4 times and gone 0-4.

Also its worth noting that Kolb not only had a healthy Beanie to get him a huge portion of the Cardinals scoring, but he also had tight ends.

 

[Darkside]

We don't even know if we've got a QB or not.

With our O-line, Joe Montana would look like a rank-amateur.

The so-called "3-step drop" is closer to a one-step & Duck! kind of deal.

That's why one QB can look good for a bunch of plays (& even a whole game) and awful the next. It's hard to be consistent when you have less than one second to make the right decision and execute properly.

StL has a similar problem - their O-line is a shambles (mainly due to injury) and Bradford looks more like Skelton or Kolb than he does Otto Graham.

I kind of agree with this, in that our O-line is indeed horrible, but I think Montana could make it work (Kurt Warner did). Our Oline is literally built around those 5 step drops, really, meaning that any QB's best asset is going to be planting and moving up in the pocket. Plant that right foot, drive, and move up. That's what Montana was best at. He prob'ly had the best right foot (and ankle, hips, whatever) in football. Unfortunately it's almost the complete opposite of the system Kolb came from and one of his worst attributes. Philly doesn't emphasize that drop, plant, drive, all while reading the defense. It has to become 2nd nature (look at how easily Skelton was able to plant and move up into the pocket, even if the rest of his game needs work).

That's not Kolb's game. Early on everyone was like, "Look at how athletic he is, moving outside the tackles," etc etc, but that's because that's his game and that's how he played in Philly's system (something Vick still does, a lot better than Kolb), and it's also how McNabb played in that same system. McNabb, Kolb, Vick only kill dudes when they move around and the D breaks down, at least in that system. It's a lot of screens, throws to the flats, reverses, and sliding the protection.

Problem is, that isn't our system, we're nothing like that. We can't even complete a screen pass. Rarely throw it effectively to the flats, can't slide protection, and have run, I believe, exactly 2 reverses all year. And we wonder why Kolb struggles. Not saying he can't do it, but he's having to learn a different skillset than he's used to. I'm not even surprised he's struggling, although I expected some type of miracle, I'll be honest.

Best thing they can do for Kolb isn't even fix the protection, it's to weight his cleats down with cement so that he can only move about 3 feet in any direction.

 

[TJ]

What about those of us who don't think the Cards have a quality QB on the roster right now? Kolb, Skelton or Bartel?

For me the QB controversy is how the Cards managed to get themselves in this position and leave fans in a position where people would rather clean out their sock drawer than watch the Cardinals games on Sunday.

For the time being, it's about who's the best of the bunch. This would include 2012 unless Andrew Luck somehow falls into our lap, because for all intents and purposes, it'll be Kolb and Skelton on the roster next season and this discussion will never end. That's why I proposed a fair competition next TC.

Also, you can use the words "Controversy" and "Cards Managed" for virtually every position and coach on this team, as Rod Graves is the King of Controversy.

 

[WisconsinCard]

None of these ridiculous arguments are even true. There is no controversy and there wasn't before last game. People need to think logically. You shouldn't start Skelton, if you wanted to, even assuming he won the SF game, it was never going to happen. We have to find out what Kolb has now, because his contract mushrooms in later years, and most importantly next year. Kolb needs to play for us as much as possible before they continue playing him, and you can't do that if you start Skelton. The honest-to-God-truth is that you can start Kolb and keep Skelton but you can't do the reverse, and start Skelton and ride Kolb on the bench. That cannot happen. We have to find out what Kolb has now. Skelton isn't going anywhere.

Excellent post!! I am a John Skelton fan, I think he has a hgher ceiling then any other QB on our roster. That being said we did invest a heap into KK and we should see if that investment will ever pay off. I also agree that is it better to let JS sit rather then KK.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

And Skelton has put together 2 game tying or winning drives in 3 starts and won 2 games while Kolb has been put in that situation 4 times and gone 0-4.

Also its worth noting that Kolb not only had a healthy Beanie to get him a huge portion of the Cardinals scoring, but he also had tight ends.

And but for a total gag job by the rams FG team, and to two sick tipped balls in the eagles game, John would be 0-3.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

And but for a total gag job by the rams FG team, and to two sick tipped balls in the eagles game, John would be 0-3.

Kolb would be 0-7 by those standards

 

[gmabel830]

Kolb would be 0-7 by those standards

Or, you could take the opposite stance and say if the defense didn't blow leads in the second half that he helped create, Kolb would be 5-2.

The stats and the records are what they are though, no sense in playing the "what could have been" game.

 

[Darkside]

Excellent post!! I am a John Skelton fan, I think he has a hgher ceiling then any other QB on our roster. That being said we did invest a heap into KK and we should see if that investment will ever pay off. I also agree that is it better to let JS sit rather then KK.

I have a feeling you're right, about him having a higher ceiling. I said earlier that pocket awareness is second nature, and Skelton has that in spades. His pocket awareness is off the charts. His footwork sucks, his hip rotation sucks, his accuracy sucks (he can hit dudes, but he won't let them run afterward, and that's a problem). But those things are coachable. Very coachable. Pocket awareness and fearlessness aren't.