Its Official: We have a QB Controversy

[nashman]

Silly! Way way way to early to give up on Kolb and don't really care what a few Kolb haters think. Fact is you have no idea what he will or won't be in the future! Lots of QBs didn't start their careers playing lights out, and moving to completely different offensive systems. He hasn't even had an offseason and has played only seven games Jesus whatever happened to developing a QB! it's all nonsense Kolb should be and will be the starter if healthy.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I think it is becoming more official that we do not have a controversy at the QB position, we don't have a QB at all ...again!

 

[Phrazbit]

Silly! Way way way to early to give up on Kolb and don't really care what a few Kolb haters think. Fact is you have no idea what he will or won't be in the future! Lots of QBs didn't start their careers playing lights out, and moving to completely different offensive systems. He hasn't even had an offseason and has played only seven games Jesus whatever happened to developing a QB! it's all nonsense Kolb should be and will be the starter if healthy.

Exactly... what ever happened to developing a QB? What kind of idiot idea was it to trade for a 27 year old.

Oh wait... you think we should be "developing" a 27 year old... so when he is 30 we might get a .500 QB out of him.

 

[nashman]

It means giving him more than 7 games smart ass! Very limited offseason and seven games is not enough to even know what we have. We know you don't like him but who are you... Is your profession a qb scout for the NFL? The guy has talent whether you like him or not and we did give up a lot to get him so the smart money plays the guy to see if he gets better and works out or not. Whether you think he is great or has the ability to be elite is irrelevant as you know about as much any other know it all fan which isn't much!

 

[TJ]

How about we put this to an end and let Kolb and Skelton fight it out in TC next offseason for the job? I feel the same dissension coming about when it was Warner v. Leinart.

Personally, I don't care who the QB is anymore, as long as he produces. What I do believe is if you pit the two in a fair competition, Kolb would come out the winner each and every time, much to the chagrin to the Skelton backers/Kolb haters. I'm not going to bore you with rhetoric or engage in paralysis by analysis like many have already done, I just know from my personal opinion and talking with non-Cardinal, intelligent football fans with no emotional interest in the team that Kolb is still the better option.

I've said my peace and am not going to voice an opinion on the QB situation again this season.

 

[gmabel830]

Arguing with Phrazbit about Kolb is like a Democrat arguing with a Republican on the merits of Obama's healthcare plan (NOTE - I use this as an example, NOT to start an off-topic political discussion). Phrazbit is by far and away the #1 Kolb hater on this board and has pretty much hit troll status on the topic. I think it's just best to ignore him on this topic since his opinion is clear and will never change.

 

[TJ]

Arguing with Phrazbit about Kolb is like a Democrat arguing with a Republican on the merits of Obama's healthcare plan (NOTE - I use this as an example, NOT to start an off-topic political discussion). Phrazbit is by far and away the #1 Kolb hater on this board and has pretty much hit troll status on the topic. I think it's just best to ignore him on this topic since his opinion is clear and will never change.

That's why I made note of the dissension.

I haven't been around as much since September, for good reason, but the few post I've read from Phrazbit have been nothing but anti-Kolb propaganda.

But at the same token, remember Leinart v. Warner. You weren't going to find one person who was neutral, and no matter how hard you tried, you couldn't persuade someone from the Leinart camp to cheer for Warner. This place was pretty toxic for a while and I am sure we set a record in 2008 for number of bans in a three month period by the moderators. I'm not afraid to admit that I was on "Team Leinart" in 2008 and was pretty emotional about my stance. I learned my lesson pretty fast.

That's why I'm just going to wait and see how this unfolds. 2011 is toast either way.

 

[Russ Smith]

Um... DeMarco Sampson was on the field enough to get one of those 6 receptions yesterday. We were running a lot of 4-WR and very little of the max protect offense. Where were the TEs all day yesterday?

I'm not impressed that Kolb managed to get a 74-yard catch and run to LSH on a ball that traveled maybe 7 yards through the air and a junk 4th Quarter TD after being down 18 with 4 minutes remaining in the game. Nor am I impressed at the 25 yard drive that Kolb was able to put together for that TD against Baltimore (it only took 4 plays!).

One of these guys have shown that they can at least sometimes convert a 3rd down. The other one is a pleasant surprise when it's only an incomplete pass on first and 10.

If Kolb had shown as much ability against middling teams as Skelton has, there'd be more of an affirmative argument. That our $61 million QB has an argument for maybe being as good as a guy making $300,000 this year, I'd be more convinced.

Well if you can discount Kolb's stats as garbage time I can discount the 4WR stuff as once we got behind.

Early in the game we had the FB in, our 2 best receiving TE's were hurt so King was in. We did play some 4 WR but I'd bet in the first half nothing like what we normally do.

Whiz told Fox last week and the game before we are changing the protection scheme to give John more time to throw. I don't think he was lying, I just think SF got ahead and in the 2nd half it became a 4Wr system again.

The game plan was not 4WR's though, it just ended up that way because the game got away from us.

 

[kerouac9]

Well if you can discount Kolb's stats as garbage time I can discount the 4WR stuff as once we got behind.

Early in the game we had the FB in, our 2 best receiving TE's were hurt so King was in. We did play some 4 WR but I'd bet in the first half nothing like what we normally do.

Whiz told Fox last week and the game before we are changing the protection scheme to give John more time to throw. I don't think he was lying, I just think SF got ahead and in the 2nd half it became a 4Wr system again.

The game plan was not 4WR's though, it just ended up that way because the game got away from us.

How hard is it to just check your facts? Whis said on "In the Red Zone" that the Cards thought they could pass on these guys effectively. Clearly they came out wanting to pass.

Then, all you have to do is check the NFL.com play charts:

1-10-ARI 20 (15:00) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 12-A.Roberts.
3-6-ARI 24 (14:15) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 11-L.Fitzgerald (22-C.Rogers).
2-2-ARI 44 (9:34) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short left intended for 12-A.Roberts INTERCEPTED by 52-P.Willis (25-T.Brown) at ARI 48. 52-P.Willis to ARI 38 for 10 yards (75-L.Brown).
1-10-ARI 39 (8:13) (Shotgun) 36-L.Stephens-Howling right guard to ARI 43 for 4 yards (91-R.McDonald, 52-P.Willis).
2-6-ARI 43 (7:34) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short left to 11-L.Fitzgerald (52-P.Willis).
3-6-ARI 43 (7:28) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short left to 85-E.Doucet [94-J.Smith].
2-7-ARI 23 (1:24) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short right to 11-L.Fitzgerald to ARI 23 for no gain (53-N.Bowman). Caught at ARI 22. 1-yd YAC
3-7-ARI 23 44) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton to ARI 15 for -8 yards. FUMBLES, and recovers at ARI 15. 19-J.Skelton sacked at ARI 15 for -8 yards (55-A.Brooks). ARI-72-B.Keith was injured during the play. His return is Questionable.
2-10-ARI 20 (8:32) 19-J.Skelton pass short right to 45-R.Maui'a to ARI 32 for 12 yards (22-C.Rogers). Caught at ARI 22. 10-yds YAC
1-10-ARI 32 (8:00) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete deep middle to 11-L.Fitzgerald (53-N.Bowman).
3-9-ARI 33 (7:21) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 12-A.Roberts.
1-10-ARI 20 50) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short left to 85-E.Doucet pushed ob at ARI 36 for 16 yards (38-D.Goldson). Caught at ARI 25. 11-yds YAC
1-10-ARI 36 45) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short right to 85-E.Doucet to ARI 44 for 8 yards (29-C.Culliver). Caught at ARI 41. 3-yds YAC
2-2-ARI 44 27) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete deep left to 85-E.Doucet.
3-2-ARI 44 18) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 29-C.Taylor [99-Ald.Smith].

Those are the possessions before we went down by 16 points and have to start passing. That's 11 of 15 pass attempts that are out of shotgun.

Maybe the Cards have a shotgun package that features both a fullback and tight end, or two tight ends.

But I doubt it.

 

[Joe L]

Exactly... what ever happened to developing a QB? What kind of idiot idea was it to trade for a 27 year old.

Oh wait... you think we should be "developing" a 27 year old... so when he is 30 we might get a .500 QB out of him.

I take it you hate Kolb, right? I mean, it's not like he was sitting on the bench all those years with a coach who knows how to develop QB's...Great point!

Anyway, I think giving a QB 7 games under a new system, under a coach who isn't known to make young QB's better, is more than enough time to succeed.
I totally agree with you, where do I sign?


/sarcasm.

And by the way, one of the idiots was Fitz.

 

[Joe L]

Arguing with Phrazbit about Kolb is like a Democrat arguing with a Republican on the merits of Obama's healthcare plan (NOTE - I use this as an example, NOT to start an off-topic political discussion). Phrazbit is by far and away the #1 Kolb hater on this board and has pretty much hit troll status on the topic. I think it's just best to ignore him on this topic since his opinion is clear and will never change.

Agreed. He is actually the reason I went from observer, to participator again.

 

[Phrazbit]

I like how "anti Kolb propaganda" consists of using facts like his stats, age and record to point out how he is bad... and never was good.

I dont hate Kolb the person, I hate the fact that the Cardinals traded for a bad quarterback.

And Joe L, Fitz wanted Kolb here because he thought Kolb could let us win now. He did NOT want to get a QB the Cards needed to "develop" but "developing" Kolb has become the one defense used as a reason to keep him around. Even though the entire idea of getting him was so the Cardinals would NOT have to develop a QB.

You dont get a 27 year old with the intention of "developing" them so in a few years they might be able to help you. How ANYONE can think that is sound decision making is beyond me.

 

[Joe L]

I like how "anti Kolb propaganda" consists of using facts like his stats, age and record to point out how he is bad... and never was good.

I dont hate Kolb the person, I hate the fact that the Cardinals traded for a bad quarterback.

And Joe L, Fitz wanted Kolb here because he thought Kolb could let us win now. He did NOT want to get a QB the Cards needed to "develop" but "developing" Kolb has become the one defense used as a reason to keep him around. Even though the entire idea of getting him was so the Cardinals would NOT have to develop a QB.

You dont get a 27 year old with the intention of "developing" them so in a few years they might be able to help you. How ANYONE can think that is sound decision making is beyond me.

"anti Kolb propaganda"? So are you admitting what you are doing is just, spreading propaganda? Hmmmm...

Yeah, I guess I am anti-Kolb propaganda then.

 

[Phrazbit]

"anti Kolb propaganda"? So are you admitting what you are doing is just, propaganda? Hmmmm...

Yeah, I guess I am anti-Kolb propaganda then.

Good point. Way to debate the topic.

Chopper and I disagree strongly on this issue, but I respect Chopper because he will actually debate and I can totally understand his stance, even though I disagree with it.

When you resort to whining about stats and facts like a players age being "propaganda" then you have given up on debate.

I am perfectly willing to debate this, I am not going to call names, I am not going to attack character but if thats all you have to support Kolb... attacking me. Then I guess we can agree that debating is fruitless.

 

[Duckjake]

It means giving him more than 7 games smart ass! Very limited offseason and seven games is not enough to even know what we have. We know you don't like him but who are you... Is your profession a qb scout for the NFL? The guy has talent whether you like him or not and we did give up a lot to get him so the smart money plays the guy to see if he gets better and works out or not. Whether you think he is great or has the ability to be elite is irrelevant as you know about as much any other know it all fan which isn't much!

This post it too funny coming from you. Are you a professional scout? Are you an NFL head coach? Didn't you know that CKW was making a mistake starting Hightower over Edgerrin James and post about it incessantly?

 

[kerouac9]

I take it you hate Kolb, right? I mean, it's not like he was sitting on the bench all those years with a coach who knows how to develop QB's...Great point!

Anyway, I think giving a QB 7 games under a new system, under a coach who isn't known to make young QB's better, is more than enough time to succeed.
I totally agree with you, where do I sign?


/sarcasm.

And by the way, one of the idiots was Fitz.

Yes. A.J. Feeley, Koi Detmer, and Donnie McNabb have all looked good once they left Philly. Well-developed players. Mike McMahon really came along under the tutelage of Andy Reid.

Fitz shouldn't be making personnel decisions. Him backing Derek Anderson really helped the team eat out of the garbage last year.

 

[Duckjake]

How about we put this to an end and let Kolb and Skelton fight it out in TC next offseason for the job? I feel the same dissension coming about when it was Warner v. Leinart.

Personally, I don't care who the QB is anymore, as long as he produces. What I do believe is if you pit the two in a fair competition, Kolb would come out the winner each and every time, much to the chagrin to the Skelton backers/Kolb haters. I'm not going to bore you with rhetoric or engage in paralysis by analysis like many have already done, I just know from my personal opinion and talking with non-Cardinal, intelligent football fans with no emotional interest in the team that Kolb is still the better option.

I've said my peace and am not going to voice an opinion on the QB situation again this season.

What about those of us who don't think the Cards have a quality QB on the roster right now? Kolb, Skelton or Bartel?

For me the QB controversy is how the Cards managed to get themselves in this position and leave fans in a position where people would rather clean out their sock drawer than watch the Cardinals games on Sunday.

 

[Mulli]

What about those of us who don't think the Cards have a quality QB on the roster right now? Kolb, Skelton or Bartel?

For me the QB controversy is how the Cards managed to get themselves in this position and leave fans in a position where people would rather clean out their sock drawer than watch the Cardinals games on Sunday.

Me!

 

[Joe L]

Good point. Way to debate the topic.

Chopper and I disagree strongly on this issue, but I respect Chopper because he will actually debate and I can totally understand his stance, even though I disagree with it.

When you resort to whining about stats and facts like a players age being "propaganda" then you have given up on debate.

I am perfectly willing to debate this, I am not going to call names, I am not going to attack character but if thats all you have to support Kolb... attacking me. Then I guess we can agree that debating is fruitless.

Actually, you were the one whining about his age, not me. You brought his age up, I sarcastically ( apologize), made my points by saying his age wasn't spent picking his nose all those years. You also used the word "propaganda" as a way to stifle the conversation so I used that word against you ( can't blame me for that).
Look, I want no pissing match, had plenty here over the years so I'll just bow out of this and come back atcha in a different manner when I disagree with future comments.

 

[Duckjake]

Me!

I get extra points for including a Mulli reference in my post.

 

[Joe L]

Yes. A.J. Feeley, Koi Detmer, and Donnie McNabb have all looked good once they left Philly. Well-developed players. Mike McMahon really came along under the tutelage of Andy Reid.

Fitz shouldn't be making personnel decisions. Him backing Derek Anderson really helped the team eat out of the garbage last year.

Fitz wanted him over what we had. He made his opinion known, and the FO might have been persuaded by his opinion...Nothing wrong with that.
If you have to be mad at anything, why not the FO?
I disagreed with DA over Leinart but if Whiz is that much of a pushover, then blame the coach and front office. Who is really running the asylum?

 

[Phrazbit]

Actually, you were the one whining about his age, not me. You brought his age up, I sarcastically ( apologize), made my points by saying his age wasn't spent picking his nose all those years. You also used the word "propaganda" as a way to stifle the conversation so I used that word against you ( can't blame me for that).
Look, I want no pissing match, had plenty here over the years so I'll just bow out of this and come back atcha in a different manner when I disagree with future comments.

I was not claiming someone else mentioned his age first, I was talking about me using the FACT that he is 27 and a "developing" QB against him is somehow something that only qualifies as propaganda or 'hate' (which was the term you used).

And I also was not the one who brought "propaganda" into it. That was TJ.

And I agree, lets not have a pissing match. I would prefer to continue to dislike the Card personnel choices and not end up where it turns into disliking fellow Cardinal fans.

I am no wild supporter of Skelton, I dont claim him to be the "savior". I do feel he brings more tools to succeed to the table. And Kolb has shown so little during his career, brings so little to the table, is not a guy you want to wait several years for him to "figure it out" and is paid so much that keeping him around and on the field only compounds the damage of acquiring him in the first place.

The Cards should look for a QB in the draft this offseason. By far the most reliable way to find success is to draft and develop your own players and especially your own quarterback. And so far there is a 0% chance of success when trading for a former Andy Reid QB.

 

[JeffGollin]

I think it is becoming more official that we do not have a controversy at the QB position, we don't have a QB at all ...again!

We don't even know if we've got a QB or not.

With our O-line, Joe Montana would look like a rank-amateur.

The so-called "3-step drop" is closer to a one-step & Duck! kind of deal.

That's why one QB can look good for a bunch of plays (& even a whole game) and awful the next. It's hard to be consistent when you have less than one second to make the right decision and execute properly.

StL has a similar problem - their O-line is a shambles (mainly due to injury) and Bradford looks more like Skelton or Kolb than he does Otto Graham.

 

[Russ Smith]

How hard is it to just check your facts? Whis said on "In the Red Zone" that the Cards thought they could pass on these guys effectively. Clearly they came out wanting to pass.

Then, all you have to do is check the NFL.com play charts:

1-10-ARI 20 (15:00) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 12-A.Roberts.
3-6-ARI 24 (14:15) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 11-L.Fitzgerald (22-C.Rogers).
2-2-ARI 44 (9:34) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short left intended for 12-A.Roberts INTERCEPTED by 52-P.Willis (25-T.Brown) at ARI 48. 52-P.Willis to ARI 38 for 10 yards (75-L.Brown).
1-10-ARI 39 (8:13) (Shotgun) 36-L.Stephens-Howling right guard to ARI 43 for 4 yards (91-R.McDonald, 52-P.Willis).
2-6-ARI 43 (7:34) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short left to 11-L.Fitzgerald (52-P.Willis).
3-6-ARI 43 (7:28) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short left to 85-E.Doucet [94-J.Smith].
2-7-ARI 23 (1:24) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short right to 11-L.Fitzgerald to ARI 23 for no gain (53-N.Bowman). Caught at ARI 22. 1-yd YAC
3-7-ARI 23 44) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton to ARI 15 for -8 yards. FUMBLES, and recovers at ARI 15. 19-J.Skelton sacked at ARI 15 for -8 yards (55-A.Brooks). ARI-72-B.Keith was injured during the play. His return is Questionable.
2-10-ARI 20 (8:32) 19-J.Skelton pass short right to 45-R.Maui'a to ARI 32 for 12 yards (22-C.Rogers). Caught at ARI 22. 10-yds YAC
1-10-ARI 32 (8:00) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete deep middle to 11-L.Fitzgerald (53-N.Bowman).
3-9-ARI 33 (7:21) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 12-A.Roberts.
1-10-ARI 20 50) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short left to 85-E.Doucet pushed ob at ARI 36 for 16 yards (38-D.Goldson). Caught at ARI 25. 11-yds YAC
1-10-ARI 36 45) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass short right to 85-E.Doucet to ARI 44 for 8 yards (29-C.Culliver). Caught at ARI 41. 3-yds YAC
2-2-ARI 44 27) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete deep left to 85-E.Doucet.
3-2-ARI 44 18) (Shotgun) 19-J.Skelton pass incomplete short right to 29-C.Taylor [99-Ald.Smith].

Those are the possessions before we went down by 16 points and have to start passing. That's 11 of 15 pass attempts that are out of shotgun.

Maybe the Cards have a shotgun package that features both a fullback and tight end, or two tight ends.

But I doubt it.

The FB was in at least 3 times early in the game, you'll note he caught a pass even. Or do we have a play where the FB catches the ball while not actually in the game?

I didn't say we ran the ball I said we changed so we were trying to provide more time to throw. We had 3 WR in yes but I said 4WR packages did I not?

The fact is we moved the ball in the first half against Bal better than we ever did against SF with Skelton in and moved the ball against Pitt much better.

Almost half of Skelton's yards came on one short play where Roberts made a guy miss and ran down the sideline. If you want to take away the short pass to LSH instride that he took to the house, you can't count Roberts play either so now Skelton has just over 50 yards passing in a half against a team the coach said he thought they could pass on.

That's not good.

You're using his games against the rams and Eagles when i clearly said I was talking about the 3 teams you said were the best defenses.

 

[kerouac9]

The FB was in at least 3 times early in the game, you'll note he caught a pass even. Or do we have a play where the FB catches the ball while not actually in the game?

I didn't say we ran the ball I said we changed so we were trying to provide more time to throw. We had 3 WR in yes but I said 4WR packages did I not?

The fact is we moved the ball in the first half against Bal better than we ever did against SF with Skelton in and moved the ball against Pitt much better.

Almost half of Skelton's yards came on one short play where Roberts made a guy miss and ran down the sideline. If you want to take away the short pass to LSH instride that he took to the house, you can't count Roberts play either so now Skelton has just over 50 yards passing in a half against a team the coach said he thought they could pass on.

That's not good.

You're using his games against the rams and Eagles when i clearly said I was talking about the 3 teams you said were the best defenses.

Well, if you saw the fullback on the field 3 times in the first two dozen Cardinals plays, then clearly the Cards were primarily utilizing their max protect package for most of the time. Especially since nearly 70% of their passing attempts were out of shotgun.

Take a look at your original post again, Russ:

Well if you can discount Kolb's stats as garbage time I can discount the 4WR stuff as once we got behind.

Early in the game we had the FB in, our 2 best receiving TE's were hurt so King was in. We did play some 4 WR but I'd bet in the first half nothing like what we normally do.

Whiz told Fox last week and the game before we are changing the protection scheme to give John more time to throw. I don't think he was lying, I just think SF got ahead and in the 2nd half it became a 4Wr system again.

The game plan was not 4WR's though, it just ended up that way because the game got away from us.

So... we the Cards playing their "usual" spread the field with multiple receivers and have the QB playing out of the shotgun, or were they playing the special max-protect scheme utilizing a FB and/or multiple TEs a lot of the time?

I'll stipulate that the Cards possibly weren't in 4WR most of the time early in the game, if you'll agree that you were wrong, and the Cards clearly were in their usual ineffective offensive scheme instead of what worked for them the past two weeks.

Against Baltimore Kolb only had to go a handful of yards to pick up points. Compare the field position against Baltimore to what Skelton had against San Francisco, and it's not even close. Once Baltimore started giving the Cards the ball on their own side of the field, Kolb revealed himself to be awful once again.

Skelton had a bad game. There's no question about that. But I'm not sure it's fair to compare Skelton's one awful game on the road so unfavorably to Kolb who was facing Pittsburgh with half their front seven on the inactive list at home and Kolb where the D was giving them the ball on Baltimore's 30 a handful of times.

But if there's no context that can be presented to you where Kolb wasn't an effective quarterback against Baltimore and Pittsburgh--one game we lost because Kolb couldn't lead the offense anywhere for two and a half quarters, and one where it was a blowout all the way through--then there's really no talking to you about it.

Both guys suck, but one is getting paid ten times as much.