It's Over for Suns

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Do you guys think that Sarver (and his phony promises to not micro-manage) will ever consider how badly his public persona is slipping, both in terms of style and decisions?

He is driven by his ego. Maybe that is the only motivator he'll pay attention to.

Is he an egotist, and egomaniac or a narcissist?

Guys like him will never believe they’re not right. It’s what got him where he is. He won’t change his spots.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, we'll never really know but I thought that was a failed attempt by Sarver to prove he was just one of the common folk.

You do? You give him a lot more credit than I do. I thought that was just him being a jackass.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You do? You give him a lot more credit than I do. I thought that was just him being a jackass.

In a way, my version might even speak worse of him. How big of a disconnect between him and working class reality must there be for him to think that's how the common folk behave?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In a way, my version might even speak worse of him. How big of a disconnect between him and working class reality must there be for him to think that's how the common folk behave?

Oh I’ve seen poor behavior from every class. To me it just exploded with jackassery.

 

[Western Font]

Ego is a fair assumption if an owner without a basketball background makes personnel decisions against the judgment of his GM. Also a fair assumption when the owner has a pattern of hiring inexperienced coaches and management. Unfortunately it just usually gets mentioned as part of a character assassination.

He either does not want to hire or cannot hire the management the team needs. I hope I get proven wrong.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap, I disagree. Whether getting attention by waving that foam finger at the beginning or shouting instructions to his General Manager who is on the phone with another General Manager not too long ago, and everything in between, are consistent examples of his using his position as Managing Partner to seek glory. And hiring inexperienced underlings who won't stand up to him for the sake of the team.

It is what it is and there is no indication that we've seen the last of it. The history is no mystery!

That literally has nothing to do with him waving the foam finger a few times 15 years ago.

 

[Hoop Head]

Chap, I disagree. Whether getting attention by waving that foam finger at the beginning or shouting instructions to his General Manager who is on the phone with another General Manager not too long ago, and everything in between, are consistent examples of his using his position as Managing Partner to seek glory. And hiring inexperienced underlings who won't stand up to him for the sake of the team.

It is what it is and there is no indication that we've seen the last of it. The history is no mystery!

Inexperienced, yes, but you have no clue if any of our GM's, coach's, or personnel have stood up to Sarver. With the turnover for administrative positions like those I would not be surprised if it's happened quite a few times. Why else is everyone getting fired, and a number of them at questionable points in the year. Regardless, you don't know if anyone has or hasn't stood up to him.

I remember you mentioning Barkley as someone you'd like to see as our GM because he'd tell Sarver off. Outside of telling Sarver off, what other qualifications does he have? I think he'd be a poor general manager and if you watched Inside the NBA a few times it would be glaringly obvious how bad he'd be. They have a segment where Barkley has to guess which team a player is on and he routinely gets 90% wrong. He celebrates that 1 correct answer throughout the segment regularly but he doesn't know who in the modern NBA would be capable of contributing to a winning team outside of All-Stars. I think you'd be fine with a bumbling failure as the GM so long as he regularly insulted Sarver. Hypothetically, would you welcome Barkley on as GM right now? Also would you welcome McD back if he told Sarver to hit the bricks in his return press conference and blamed him for previous failures under his tenure?

 

[95pro]

Sarver wanted it to be known he was here and he was the new owner.

He thinks his decisions are always right because the decisions he made allowed him to buy the team.

Now he has the team and he thinks his decisions are always right. And being the narcistic home grown piece of trash he is, he thinks he can overstep anyone and everyone who comes to position themselves within the organization.

I get it. He seems like a smart guy considering he got an education within a short amount of time. Made millions off of banking and investing.

But owning a sports franchise is out of his realm. He just needs to step aside and hire competent people. His ego is getting in the way of success from allowing this franchise to thrive. He walked into a good commodity but his lack basketball sense has us spiraling down. He thinks just because he’s been the man and successful in banking and investing that he also knows best for this franchise.

EGO.

 

[Superbone]

I've thought of that similarity before but I didn't know when Bill stepped aside for his son to takeover but there are definitely some similarities between the two. I don't think Bill pretended to know the sport though, at least not for the same amount of time that Sarver has. Sarver stumbled into a quality team when he bought the Suns and thought he played a role in doing that. He was nothing but a spectator to Jerry and Bryan's swan song with the Suns though, bringing Nash back and setting us up to contend for the next 4-5 seasons. Once Bryan was pushed out though anyone paying attention could tell Sarver thought he didn't need him and had this whole "ownership" thing figured out. It wasn't long after that when he let Amare walk, which was the right move, and tried replacing him with Warrick, Hedo, and Childress. For that much money he should have just paid Amare. At least we could have contended for another year or two, maybe three with our training staff. The final years of that contract would be awful but the years without him were awful as well.

Let's hope Sarver's sons grow up quickly. They can't be any worse. Maybe at least they'll learn from his mistakes.

 

[BC867]

Inexperienced, yes, but you have no clue if any of our GM's, coach's, or personnel have stood up to Sarver. With the turnover for administrative positions like those I would not be surprised if it's happened quite a few times. Why else is everyone getting fired, and a number of them at questionable points in the year. Regardless, you don't know if anyone has or hasn't stood up to him.

I remember you mentioning Barkley as someone you'd like to see as our GM because he'd tell Sarver off. Outside of telling Sarver off, what other qualifications does he have? I think he'd be a poor general manager and if you watched Inside the NBA a few times it would be glaringly obvious how bad he'd be. They have a segment where Barkley has to guess which team a player is on and he routinely gets 90% wrong. He celebrates that 1 correct answer throughout the segment regularly but he doesn't know who in the modern NBA would be capable of contributing to a winning team outside of All-Stars. I think you'd be fine with a bumbling failure as the GM so long as he regularly insulted Sarver. Hypothetically, would you welcome Barkley on as GM right now? Also would you welcome McD back if he told Sarver to hit the bricks in his return press conference and blamed him for previous failures under his tenure?

I mentioned Barkley in the same vein that I voted for Trump, knowing that they are both outrageous and not the kind of leader I would normally support.

Why? Because I felt that the status quo (in the cases of both the country and the Suns) is in need of a major shake up. Frankly, I thought that Trump would be gone by now. I believe he is trying his best to be ousted. But the 2-party stranglehold is still putting Party over people.

I would rather see Barkley come in and make waves until he gets bored so the Suns could get back to normalcy within the NBA. Sarver is not normalcy!

That is why I 'suggested' Barkley (tongue in cheek), but I would support it, with an Assistant GM to do the legwork. It would sure change the Suns image of pathetic, wouldn't it?

 

[SirStefan32]

Well that explains a lot.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I mentioned Barkley in the same vein that I voted for Trump, knowing that they are both outrageous and not the kind of leader I would normally support.

Why? Because I felt that the status quo (in the cases of both the country and the Suns) is in need of a major shake up. Frankly, I thought that Trump would be gone by now. I believe he is trying his best to be ousted. But the 2-party stranglehold is still putting Party over people.

I would rather see Barkley come in and make waves until he gets bored so the Suns could get back to normalcy within the NBA. Sarver is not normalcy!

That is why I 'suggested' Barkley (tongue in cheek), but I would support it, with an Assistant GM to do the legwork. It would sure change the Suns image of pathetic, wouldn't it?

I don’t want to take this thread to pure politics, but you voted for a guy for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES that you didn’t expect to last his first term?!? What-the-what?!?

 

[Hoop Head]

I don’t want to take this thread to pure politics, but you voted for a guy for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES that you didn’t expect to last his first term?!? What-the-what?!?

I wondered the same thing. You vote for candidate to shake things up in the primaries but not the general election. When it comes to voting for the highest office in the land though you vote for who you feel will do the best job or who you feel is most qualified.

 

[mojorizen7]

Even if Sarver means well...he's been playing whack-a-mole with this franchise for years.

The 50 and fade culture feels like a lifetime ago....clearly contrasted by one thing. Ownership change.

Excuses and speculation directed towards anything but Sarver for this nearly decade long trainwreck is amusing.

 

[Finito]

Even if Sarver means well...he's been playing whack-a-mole with this franchise for years.

The 50 and fade culture feels like a lifetime ago....clearly contrasted by one thing. Ownership change.

Excuses and speculation directed towards anything but Sarver for this nearly decade long trainwreck is amusing.

The stories are crazy.

 

[BC867]

I don’t want to take this thread to pure politics, but you voted for a guy for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES that you didn’t expect to last his first term?!? What-the-what?!?

I supported Chris Christie, a moderate Republican governor of a Democratic state, because I thought he had the best chance of reversing what I considered to be one of our biggest problems -- political gridlock.

Then he and his staff committed gridlock at its worst -- shutting down commuting traffic from Ft. Lee NJ across the George Washington Bridge trying to get to work to spite the Democrat mayor of Ft. Lee. And Christie fell out of sight. In stepped Trump and beat an array of Republican establishment candidates for the nomination.

I felt he had a chance to be a free spirit and put an end to gridlock. And was aware that he could also go off the deep end and, if so, then his Vice President, a more traditional politician, would step up in a system that was, hopefully, shaken up enough to move on from the frustration of gridlock, which was crippling our society.

Either way, I felt that the political establishment -- both Republican and Democrat -- needed a shaking up and a Chief Executive who could make things happen. So I voted for Trump over a candidate who was just as untrustworthy -- Hillary.

And I think that maybe the Trump experience has made the political establishment and the people wary of blind gridlock where the Party not in power, no matter which one, cripples the one in power.

The situation is a lot more complex than the dramatic sentence you posted, Ouchie.

Hmmm, not too different from the Suns leadership. The team and the fans are in a chokehold of incompetence. Which team is at the bottom of the NBA for the second year in a row, with no relief in sight? Our Suns.

It needs a shaking up, which is why I equated Charles Barkley to step in to do it, clearly put distance between his regime and the Sarver years, then get bored and give way to normalcy.

 

[SirStefan32]

Wow, just wow. This explains so much, BC.

 

[BC867]

Wow, just wow. This explains so much, BC.

Is that good or bad, Stef?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is that good or bad, Stef?

BC I love your passion, but man that’s just an incredible gamble to take with our entire nation. I gotta say “bad.” But that’s purely my thought.

And given what you originally wrote, was my “dramatic” question all that unwarranted???

 

[BC867]

BC I love your passion, but man that’s just an incredible gamble to take with our entire nation. I gotta say “bad.” But that’s purely my thought.

And given what you originally wrote, was my “dramatic” question all that unwarranted???

Once again, Ouchie, there wasn't too much of a choice. A lot of experts were writing about how Hillary was just as crooked as The Donald. And would put Bill and his sexual harassment BJ behavior back in the White House.

To me it was either take a chance on Trump or ... none of the above. Especially since Bernie didn't stand a chance. For a variety of reasons including his Socialist tag.

Forty years ago, when I moved to Phoenix from New Jersey, my first choice was Montréal, but it was so damn cold. So I chose the desert and never regretted it. The license plate on my SUV is as close as I could come phonetically to PARADISE.

 

[SirStefan32]

EDIT:

Deleting what I wrote. Not going to start getting into politics here. All I am going to say is that cutting off your nose to spite your face is never a valid strategy.

 

[Linderbee]

Hey guys--if you want to continue the convo, please take to PMs so this doesn't have to be moved to P&R. Thank you kindly!

 

[sunsfan88]

I'd agree with that. It was an attempt to prove he was a fan from the Mark Cuban playbook of how to appear like a normal fan when you own an NBA team. He's reminded me of Cuban a lot, with less success but still very involved. Cuban doesn't get bashed like Sarver though. He does seem to step back occasionally but the NBA also created rules to get him out of huddles during late game timeouts.

Cuban is involved with the Mavs but he does not micromanage the team like Sarver does.

The biggest issue with Sarver is what he does behind-the-scenes while the biggest issues with Cuban was always his antics at games and his need to draw attention to himself. I know this because I resided in Dallas for several years and have gone to quite a few Mavs games. I still try to keep up with what's going on with them every now and then.

He hired Carlisie, one of the most underrated coaches in the league, and stuck with him. He has also let his GM and FO staff make the major decisions for most of his tenure.

So yeah Cuban doesn't get bashed like Sarver because having an owner like Cuban would be such an upgrade over Sarver that it would be worth having a parade of it's own in Phoenix.

 

[Hoop Head]

Cuban is involved with the Mavs but he does not micromanage the team like Sarver does.

The biggest issue with Sarver is what he does behind-the-scenes while the biggest issues with Cuban was always his antics at games and his need to draw attention to himself. I know this because I resided in Dallas for several years and have gone to quite a few Mavs games. I still try to keep up with what's going on with them every now and then.

He hired Carlisie, one of the most underrated coaches in the league, and stuck with him. He has also let his GM and FO staff make the major decisions for most of his tenure.

So yeah Cuban doesn't get bashed like Sarver because having an owner like Cuban would be such an upgrade over Sarver that it would be worth having a parade of it's own in Phoenix.

Cuban has definitely backed off a lot but it was Cuban himself who wouldn't match Nash's offer that allowed him to return to Phoenix and become an MVP. He's learned from his mistakes and doesn't make moves like he used to but around that time and before that specific incident it was Cuban who pushed for the Mav's to go after a franchise Center and they wasted a ton of money on Erick Dampier types to try and fill that void. I know the Suns were also doing that in the 90's with Hot Rod and Luc Longley but they eventually gave up like others have as well. Cuban however cost the Mavericks a lot of money before he gave up and while it was his money that also counted against the cap, which hurt them while pursuing other free agents.

Deals like that put them in position to need to use their amnesty clause on Michael Finley, who had a number of quality years left in the league when he was waived. He learned not to make basketball decisions by those decisions costing him a lot of potential wins and maybe even championships. If Sarver had only made the mistakes of selling picks and not matching JJ's offer back in the day then maybe he's not bashed for it now but he continued to meddle even when his meddling was clearly the thing that cost the Suns.

 

[sunsfan88]

Cuban has definitely backed off a lot but it was Cuban himself who wouldn't match Nash's offer that allowed him to return to Phoenix and become an MVP. He's learned from his mistakes and doesn't make moves like he used to but around that time and before that specific incident it was Cuban who pushed for the Mav's to go after a franchise Center and they wasted a ton of money on Erick Dampier types to try and fill that void. I know the Suns were also doing that in the 90's with Hot Rod and Luc Longley but they eventually gave up like others have as well. Cuban however cost the Mavericks a lot of money before he gave up and while it was his money that also counted against the cap, which hurt them while pursuing other free agents.

Deals like that put them in position to need to use their amnesty clause on Michael Finley, who had a number of quality years left in the league when he was waived. He learned not to make basketball decisions by those decisions costing him a lot of potential wins and maybe even championships. If Sarver had only made the mistakes of selling picks and not matching JJ's offer back in the day then maybe he's not bashed for it now but he continued to meddle even when his meddling was clearly the thing that cost the Suns.

Yeah you'd have to go pretty far back to find those types of decisions by Cuban. I was going to mention the Nash one myself which he himself has stated repeatedly as his biggest mistake ever.

Like you said, difference between the two seems to be Cuban has learned from his mistakes while Sarver may actually be getting worse in terms of meddling. When asked on the radio if it's true that he's involved in day to day Suns operations shortly after McD got fired, Sarver said something along the line of "Yeah I like to be involved because I feel like if I'd like to give my input on things if I think it's valuable for the situation".

At first I did not believe Wojnarowsi's report entirely on how Sarver was heavily involved with the Suns and was shouting out commands while GMs were on the phone and such but after hearing that quote from him itself, I was quite terrified.