J.R Smith To Denver

[Cheesebeef]

My God, cheese on the Politics board? I would have to make extensive use of the smiley.

dude - you should have seen me on the Cards board. You think I'm ridiculous here, just imagine me ragging on a team THAT REALLY SUCKS. Yeah, HATED would be the word I would say applied to me on that board. Eventually, they all saw the light of the darkside though. Hopefully, the Suns keep proving me wrong like they have for the last 3 years.

 

[NastyOne]

they are both athletic, and they came out after high school. That's about where it stops. Tracy McGrady showed a lot of promise his first few seasons. He had great handles and was a very good defensive player. Nobody thought he was a problem either. Nobody would have even considered unloading him for a few second-round draft picks. "Ridiculous handle"? I honestly wonder who you are talking about because it isn't JR Smith.

Oh yeah, Tracy McGrady is about 6-9 with those great handles. JR Smith is just a little over 6-6. It's JOSH Smith then has the great size, athletic ability, and he came out of high school. He doesn't have the handles either though.

Joe

I said He had "ridiculous hops" not handle, but he still has good ball handling skills.

As listed by ESPN.com J.R is 6'6 220 and McGrady is 6'8 223 (And thats now, not when he came in the league when he was a twig)

And J.R Smiths stats in just about the same amount of playing time as McGrady in his first two season are very similar.

J.R Smith - Minutes played (2,848 ) Points Scored (1,205) Assist (200)
T.McGrady - Minutes played (2,285) Points Scored (909) Assist (211)

And like i said in my other post, Smith has alot of stuff he needs to work on, like the simple fundamentals of the game like defense,passing and rebounding(Like all Highscoolers) but everything else is already there.

But on scoring alone, giving the minutes and getting his confidence back with Denver, this kid will be a 20+PPG scorer in the NBA very soon.

He can attack the rim and he can shoot the long range shot, and thats all you need to be a good scorer in this league.And if he puts the work in to improve his other abilities he'll be a star.Remember hes only 20 years old.

I see his upside as a McGrady/Kobe type scorer if he puts it all together.Cause he has the same skill package as them, but they both worked their ass off to get where they are today.

 

[Joe Mama]

Gee Joe, taking that stance, why don't we just shut down the board until October because apparently only then should we discuss an opinion about the off-season according to you and many others.

Please, where did I say we shouldn't discuss an opinion about the off-season? If there's one thing you know about me it's that I'm all for discussion and opinion as long as it's somewhat civil... even if I think some people are out to lunch.

I wouldn't even disagree if people called the off-season so far disappointing, boring , war uneventful. The Phoenix Suns haven't landed any of the players they've gone after so far. I just disagree with the idea that this means it's been a disaster or a failure. I definitely disagree with those that already tagging on this management group already with so much more time left to make moves before the season begins.

You guys can make all the excuses you want for Suns management failing at EVERY one of their offseason objectives so far but I certainly won't. They have plenty of time to turn it around and I will gladly change my tune should they make moves to solve their remaining needs. But to suggest everything is beer and skittles do far this offseason is flat out wrong considering the Suns have come up empty with every personnel move they have tried to make.

Like I just said, I'm not suggesting everything is "beer and skittles". I do think the team needs to make some moves this summer to get better. I could probably do nothing and still have a great shot at a championship, but I think that would be the wrong approach. I don't believe that is their plan anyhow.

I don't even really need to wait until October. I'll start getting nervous, really nervous, about this off-season if we are still in the same place halfway through August.

I said He had "ridiculous hops" not handle, but he still has good ball handling skills.

As listed by ESPN.com J.R is 6'6 220 and McGrady is 6'8 223 (And thats now, not when he came in the league when he was a twig)

And J.R Smiths stats in just about the same amount of playing time as McGrady in his first two season are very similar.

J.R Smith - Minutes played (2,848 ) Points Scored (1,205) Assist (200)
T.McGrady - Minutes played (2,285) Points Scored (909) Assist (211)

And like i said in my other post, Smith has alot of stuff he needs to work on, like the simple fundamentals of the game like defense,passing and rebounding(Like all Highscoolers) but everything else is already there.

But on scoring alone, giving the minutes and getting his confidence back with Denver, this kid will be a 20+PPG scorer in the NBA very soon.

He can attack the rim and he can shoot the long range shot, and thats all you need to be a good scorer in this league.And if he puts the work in to improve his other abilities he'll be a star.Remember hes only 20 years old.

I see his upside as a McGrady/Kobe type scorer if he puts it all together.Cause he has the same skill package as them, but they both worked their ass off to get where they are today.

You said he had the same skills as McGrady like "ridiculous hops, handle, and a great shooting range". I think you can see where I thought you were saying he has ridiculous handles. Regardless, you are now saying that JR Smith has good ballhandling skills, and I'm wondering where you are getting this. His game is almost all long-range shots and finishing around the basket. The biggest knock on his game has been that he has no handles and a limited in between game. That's where Tracy McGrady excelled. I notice that you didn't even bring up the defense which was considered one of McGrady's strong points his first few years.

You also did a nice job of manipulating those statistics. Here are the links for JR Smith and Tracy McGrady's statistics so far. Please take a look at their first two years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3835

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3179

The first thing you'll notice is that Tracy McGrady's playing time increased from year one to year two while JR Smith's decreased from 24 minutes per game to 18 minutes per game. That should tell you something about Smith right there. The next thing is that Tracy McGrady averaged 45% and 44% from the field his first two seasons while Smith averaged 39% shooting each of his first two seasons.

Tracy McGrady only averaged a little more than half a three-point shot per game in his first few seasons. He also did not should especially well from three-point range. JR Smith on the other hand spends most of his time way out on the perimeter. His first season he averaged 29% on 3.7 attempts per game, and last year he averaged 37% on 2.5 attempts per game. Yes, I can see how they are similar. The similarities are clear and obvious.

Lastly, you conveniently forgot to mention any of the statistics for areas where Tracy McGrady clearly excelled over Smith in his first few seasons. I'm curious. Why did you give us the numbers for assists and "forget" to give us the numbers for rebounds? Couldn't be because Tracy McGrady had significantly better rebounding numbers than Smith, could it? McGrady averaged 4.2 and 5.6 his first two seasons while JR Smith averaged 2.0 rebounds per game each of his first two seasons. You can look at the shot blocking number discrepancy for yourself.

These two players didn't even play the same position during their first two seasons. Smith is a shooting guard while McGrady was a small forward all the way.

Can you imagine Toronto trading Tracy McGrady for a couple second round draft picks after two seasons? No? That's because they would not have done it because they could tell he was going to be a special player. Smith on the other hand has been a disappointment so far. Basically New Orleans just got rid of him to unload his tiny first-round contract and to get him out of the locker room.

If JR Smith is a young Tracy McGrady then so are 90% of all the young players in the NBA.

Joe

 

[NastyOne]

You said he had the same skills as McGrady like "ridiculous hops, handle, and a great shooting range". I think you can see where I thought you were saying he has ridiculous handles. Regardless, you are now saying that JR Smith has good ballhandling skills, and I'm wondering where you are getting this. His game is almost all long-range shots and finishing around the basket. The biggest knock on his game has been that he has no handles and a limited in between game. That's where Tracy McGrady excelled. I notice that you didn't even bring up the defense which was considered one of McGrady's strong points his first few years.

You also did a nice job of manipulating those statistics. Here are the links for JR Smith and Tracy McGrady's statistics so far. Please take a look at their first two years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3835

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3179

The first thing you'll notice is that Tracy McGrady's playing time increased from year one to year two while JR Smith's decreased from 24 minutes per game to 18 minutes per game. That should tell you something about Smith right there. The next thing is that Tracy McGrady averaged 45% and 44% from the field his first two seasons while Smith averaged 39% shooting each of his first two seasons.

Tracy McGrady only averaged a little more than half a three-point shot per game in his first few seasons. He also did not should especially well from three-point range. JR Smith on the other hand spends most of his time way out on the perimeter. His first season he averaged 29% on 3.7 attempts per game, and last year he averaged 37% on 2.5 attempts per game. Yes, I can see how they are similar. The similarities are clear and obvious.

Lastly, you conveniently forgot to mention any of the statistics for areas where Tracy McGrady clearly excelled over Smith in his first few seasons. I'm curious. Why did you give us the numbers for assists and "forget" to give us the numbers for rebounds? Couldn't be because Tracy McGrady had significantly better rebounding numbers than Smith, could it? McGrady averaged 4.2 and 5.6 his first two seasons while JR Smith averaged 2.0 rebounds per game each of his first two seasons. You can look at the shot blocking number discrepancy for yourself.

These two players didn't even play the same position during their first two seasons. Smith is a shooting guard while McGrady was a small forward all the way.

Can you imagine Toronto trading Tracy McGrady for a couple second round draft picks after two seasons? No? That's because they would not have done it because they could tell he was going to be a special player. Smith on the other hand has been a disappointment so far. Basically New Orleans just got rid of him to unload his tiny first-round contract and to get him out of the locker room.

If JR Smith is a young Tracy McGrady then so are 90% of all the young players in the NBA.

Joe

You bring up a bunch of stuff that i clearly said Smith is lacking and needs to work on to reach his full potential.Thats why i didnt feel the need to show his rebounding and any other defensive stats.

The only thing i was talking about was J.R Smith potential on the offensive side of the ball.

And he can attack the rim and he can shoot the three, and i don't exactly know what you're seeing when he plays, but the kid can also handle the rock.Is he as good as McGrady is controlling the ball? No, but hes no Shawn Marion thats for damn sure.He can create his own shot, and i've seen him do it plenty of times.

And if McGrady was so good at such a young age, why did Toronto allow him to get away? They traded him for a first rounder(2000) in one of the weakest drafts in the past 15 years.

I rather have two second rounders in this upcoming draft(Supposedly the best and deepest in years), than a first rounder in that years draft where names like Moiso,Dooling,Fizer,Courtney Alexander,Cleaves and Collier graced the lottery.

Wouldnt surprise me at all if J.R Smith averages rise bigtime starting in Denver like McGrady's did leaving Toronto.

 

[Joe Mama]

You bring up a bunch of stuff that i clearly said Smith is lacking and needs to work on to reach his full potential.Thats why i didnt feel the need to show his rebounding and any other defensive stats.

The only thing i was talking about was J.R Smith potential on the offensive side of the ball.

And he can attack the rim and he can shoot the three, and i don't exactly know what you're seeing when he plays, but the kid can also handle the rock.Is he as good as McGrady is controlling the ball? No, but hes no Shawn Marion thats for damn sure.He can create his own shot, and i've seen him do it plenty of times.

And if McGrady was so good at such a young age, why did Toronto allow him to get away? They traded him for a first rounder(2000) in one of the weakest drafts in the past 15 years.

I rather have two second rounders in this upcoming draft(Supposedly the best and deepest in years), than a first rounder in that years draft where names like Moiso,Dooling,Fizer,Courtney Alexander,Cleaves and Collier graced the lottery.

Wouldnt surprise me at all if J.R Smith averages rise bigtime starting in Denver like McGrady's did leaving Toronto.

first of all, I can't remember whether McGrady was traded to Orlando, or if he signed there as a free agent. Either way, he had made up his mind to go to Orlando. If Toronto traded him for a first-round draft pick that's because they were just trying to get avoid losing him for absolutely nothing. Toronto absolutely, unequivocally did not dump Tracy McGrady. They tried everything to keep him there. In fact if you remember there was talk about the Phoenix Suns trading Shawn Marion in order to get him.

Off the top of my head the best comparison I can come up with for JR Smith is Quentin Richardson. The difference is that Richardson is an exceptional rebounder. Smith doesn't even do that. Richardson also has a very good low post game even if we didn't get to see it much here. Smith doesn't do that either. Otherwise their games are similar if that really means anything. Of course it's still a better comparison than Tracy McGrady.

Joe

 

[NugzFan]

from tmac all the way down to qrich? im gonna guess smith is in the middle somewhere.

 

[Cheesebeef]

from tmac all the way down to qrich? im gonna guess smith is in the middle somewhere.

JR UPSIDE and potential IS probably in the middle up there, but at this point in his career, when compared to Q at the same stage, he hasn't even reached that level yet. The guy doesn't rebound or post like Q, but he does shoot like him and has better hops. That being said, Q was never a headcase while this guy's minutes actually DECREASED in his 2nd year because of attitude.

His upside is bigger than Q's, but that doesn't really mean squat. Gott ahave the drive as well and at this point in his career, he can't be compare to T-Mac or Q at the same point. Maybe Q now, but who the hell wants that comparison?

 

[SunsTzu]

from tmac all the way down to qrich? im gonna guess smith is in the middle somewhere.

Have to agree with cheese. He isn't even as good as Q though if he gets his head on straight he may be better down the line. He'll never be close to T-Mac however. It will be intresting how he handles playing for Karl who is harder on his players than Scott.

 

[Joe Mama]

from tmac all the way down to qrich? im gonna guess smith is in the middle somewhere.

I actually thought I was being pretty generous with the Quentin Richardson comparison. to be honest I don't even think that much of him at this point even though I would agree that he probably has enough natural talent and athleticism to be a little bit better than Richardson.

Joe

 

[NugzFan]

JR UPSIDE and potential IS probably in the middle up there, but at this point in his career, when compared to Q at the same stage, he hasn't even reached that level yet. The guy doesn't rebound or post like Q, but he does shoot like him and has better hops. That being said, Q was never a headcase while this guy's minutes actually DECREASED in his 2nd year because of attitude.

His upside is bigger than Q's, but that doesn't really mean squat. Gott ahave the drive as well and at this point in his career, he can't be compare to T-Mac or Q at the same point. Maybe Q now, but who the hell wants that comparison?

hes only like 21 years old. hell be better than q, especially now that q sucks. i dont think hell ever be as good as tmac though.

 

[NugzFan]

I actually thought I was being pretty generous with the Quentin Richardson comparison. to be honest I don't even think that much of him at this point even though I would agree that he probably has enough natural talent and athleticism to be a little bit better than Richardson.

Joe

all this from 2 seasons? eh, ill wait a little longer. fortunately he also doesnt have q's horrible contract. and all this talk about q's rebounding? 4 rpg? of course all while shooting even worse than smith and playing more minutes.

oh and oddly enough, smith shot better from 3 than q did!

 

[Cheesebeef]

all this from 2 seasons? eh, ill wait a little longer. fortunately he also doesnt have q's horrible contract. and all this talk about q's rebounding? 4 rpg? of course all while shooting even worse than smith and playing more minutes.

oh and oddly enough, smith shot better from 3 than q did!

JR Smith's 1st two seasons career averages:

22 minutes, 31% 3 point shooting, 39% FG shooting, 2 rebounds, 9.1 ppg

Q's 1st two seasons:

22 minutes (hey what do you know? Similar playing time!), 36% 3 point shooting (hey - what do you know? BETTER than JR Smith), 43.5% FG shooting (whoa - again, BETTER than JR), 4 rebounds (hey, what do you.. well, you get the picture), 11 ppg (and the beat goes on).

Using Q's season this year is IRRELEVANT because he's stuck on an AWFUL team with no clue how to use ANYONE, especially considering that before this season, in the previous two seasons where Q was healthy and actually playing for an organization that knew even somewhat what they were doing, he averaged 15.5 points, 6 boards, shot the same percentage as JR and STILL better from 3.

At this point, JR hasn't proven anything except that he's a pain in the ass, nothing more, nothign less. His ceiling may be higher than Q's, but he's yet to prove he can even be the players Q was before Q went to the black hole of sports, otherwise known as the Knicks.

 

[NugzFan]

im talking about now. unless you have reason to believe that smith cannot get any better. bring this up again when smith is q's age and if the stats still tell the same story, fine. but that wont be the case.

ill take smith over q 100 times out of 100. especially when you factor in the contract. and the price it took to get him.

 

[nowagimp]

im talking about now. unless you have reason to believe that smith cannot get any better.

Whether smith gets better depends on his coachability. Byron Scott apparently thinks he's uncoachable. If that is true, Smith will be an underachieving loser wherever he goes. If he thought Scott was tough, Karl will be bootcamp.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

hes only like 21 years old. hell be better than q, especially now that q sucks. i dont think hell ever be as good as tmac though.

I really do not understand the hatred for Q on this board, but then again I do. If you do not show up for the playoffs once, you might as well be dead. Makes sense on why everyone hear wants to trade Marion.

Q's best basketball was played before he came to the Suns. In fact, I think that he was better than Maggette. Quentin was completely overpowering SG and most SF in the low post, and could have easily averaged 20ppg if he was receiving the ball.

Quentin only did want D'Antoni advised him to do...that is shoot the wide open 3. This was a newer facet to his game, so it was expected to shoot it inaccurately. He was also misused on the Knicks because of the logjam that they have in ego charged guards over there.

Now, if your watred of him stems because of him dating Brandy, then that is A-OK.

 

[Joe Mama]

im talking about now. unless you have reason to believe that smith cannot get any better. bring this up again when smith is q's age and if the stats still tell the same story, fine. but that wont be the case.

ill take smith over q 100 times out of 100. especially when you factor in the contract. and the price it took to get him.

try following the thread. Nasty said that JR Smith was comparable to Tracy McGrady during his first few seasons. Then I said JR Smith actually reminds me more of a Poorman's Quentin Richardson. Actually, I don't even know what you are getting bent out of shape about. This had nothing to do with contracts. Nobody was saying that we would rather have Richardson than JR Smith. We were comparing them as basketball players.

Try not getting so defensive on a Phoenix Suns message board every time someone says something about one of the Nuggets.

Joe

 

[planaria]

The point is if JR Smith turn in something like Q-Rich (in Suns times), he'll be already a big time steal to the Nuggets. Higher because he fits a obvius needs in Denver.

It was a great move bye the Nuggets directors, because the price was simply ridiculous.

Take JR Smith actual game at 21 + all his potential and put him in the 2006 Draft and he'd be probabily a lottery pick and nobody is able to trade 2nd high second round picks for a lottery pick.

 

[nowagimp]

The point is if JR Smith turn in something like Q-Rich (in Suns times), he'll be already a big time steal to the Nuggets. Higher because he fits a obvius needs in Denver.

It was a great move bye the Nuggets directors, because the price was simply ridiculous.

This is correct, the nuggets needed perimeter shooting badly and have alot of big contracts already. Smith will get alot of open shots there with opposing teams packing the lane. The question is: will one perimeter shooter be enough to create the spacing for their big guys?

 

[Cheesebeef]

The point is if JR Smith turn in something like Q-Rich (in Suns times), he'll be already a big time steal to the Nuggets. Higher because he fits a obvius needs in Denver.

It was a great move bye the Nuggets directors, because the price was simply ridiculous.

Take JR Smith actual game at 21 + all his potential and put him in the 2006 Draft and he'd be probabily a lottery pick and nobody is able to trade 2nd high second round picks for a lottery pick.

you're right - but considering you're talking about one of the worst drafts of all time AND you have a player at 21 who's already proven to be a total nut-job, it's ridiculous to say he's a lotto pick.

It was a good deal based on the guy's potential, but that's all at this point. There's plenty of guys who never reach their potential and you know why that is most of the time? Attitude - JR's number one problem.

No one's saying it wasn't a good deal for the Nugz. People are just commenting - accurately - on the type of player he is TODAY.

 

[NugzFan]

Whether smith gets better depends on his coachability. Byron Scott apparently thinks he's uncoachable. If that is true, Smith will be an underachieving loser wherever he goes. If he thought Scott was tough, Karl will be bootcamp.

true but you cant just judge the kid based off of one coach. its so early for you guys to be making such huge generalizations.

 

[NugzFan]

try following the thread. Nasty said that JR Smith was comparable to Tracy McGrady during his first few seasons. Then I said JR Smith actually reminds me more of a Poorman's Quentin Richardson. Actually, I don't even know what you are getting bent out of shape about. This had nothing to do with contracts. Nobody was saying that we would rather have Richardson than JR Smith. We were comparing them as basketball players.

Try not getting so defensive on a Phoenix Suns message board every time someone says something about one of the Nuggets.

Joe

but smith doesnt really play like q...he slashes and drives a lot more.

im not getting defensive. im merely saying smith will be between q and tmac. i feel my projection is just as plausible as anyones here.

 

[NugzFan]

The point is if JR Smith turn in something like Q-Rich (in Suns times), he'll be already a big time steal to the Nuggets. Higher because he fits a obvius needs in Denver.

as long as its the phoenix q and not the new york q.

 

[Chaplin]

but smith doesnt really play like q...he slashes and drives a lot more.

im not getting defensive. im merely saying smith will be between q and tmac. i feel my projection is just as plausible as anyones here.

The problem is there is very little evidence to this point that this is going to be the case. It's nice to be hopeful, but there's a reason that a worse team than the Nuggets gave him up for peanuts. Somewhere between Q and tmac is like saying James Jones is going to be somewhere between Mike Miller and Kobe Bryant.

 

[nowagimp]

true but you cant just judge the kid based off of one coach. its so early for you guys to be making such huge generalizations.

Thats why I said IF. With Smith what I hear is that his father is in his ear alot. If his father is contradicting coaching(and criticism of his game that is meant to motivate his improvement) then it would probably make him difficult to coach. The key to development of a player that has the potential of Smith is that he must learn to play smart and within a system. My guess is that his dad knows alot less about this than the coaches, and thats not much of a reach at all.

 

[NugzFan]

The problem is there is very little evidence to this point that this is going to be the case. It's nice to be hopeful, but there's a reason that a worse team than the Nuggets gave him up for peanuts. Somewhere between Q and tmac is like saying James Jones is going to be somewhere between Mike Miller and Kobe Bryant.

sounds like a column written by krieger (denverpost) where you define a player by what hes traded for. fortunately (or unfortunatley - depending on what side you are on) its not the case in the nba. players are often traded for far less than what they are worth.

is smith part of that? who knows but i doubt ill miss the 2nd rounders. and im pretty sure he will improve, even only a little. which still makes teh deal worth it. and if hes between q and tmac (agreed, a large gap...i only used them to keep consistent with the thread) im even happier.