J-Rich and Turk to Magic

[Mainstreet]

Hmm...this may be humorous, but went right over my head.

It is sort of like BIM. An inside joke as it refers to another poster. Really not worth the effort to go much further. You're not missing anything.

 

[jagu]

Carter still looks pretty good, I like how he loves to drive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGrqTguPNlg

 

[jagu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t88LZFIcKro

 

[AzStevenCal]

Carter still looks pretty good, I like how he loves to drive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGrqTguPNlg

I don't know what he's got left but I still have nightmares from how easily he shredded our defense just about everytime we played.

Steve

 

[mojorizen7]

Good trade.
Its a good start anyway.

 

[Errntknght]

He looks pretty good in those highlights but he's not really attacking the rim nearly as often as he did in his heyday - as evidenced by his FTA rate. The avg for all SG & SFs is 4.0 / 40min and he's at 4.5 / 40, compared to 6.5+ in his best years.

A rather surprising stat that popped up while I was checking that out, was Gortat at a FTA rate of 1.8 / 40 - right there with Frye, Diaw, and Jarron Collins. His FG% is .543 so he's either a good jump shooter or he doesn't shoot unless he's uncontested. In any case, a long way from an interior force on offense at this point of his career.

 

[Michael]

What a nice surprise! I just got back from work after my wife had informed me that the Suns had traded a draft pick along with Hedo and JRich. It's the usual thing for us to do, but to actually receive a pick... sweet! Given that Hill wasn't included in the deal changed my mood about it anyway.

To break it down,

Turkoglo is gone. Won't miss him, and the best thing I'll remember most about him are his 5 straight three pointers in the final two minutes against Orlando that sealed the win - in my 2k11 association.

JRich. I really came to like him. I'll miss his fire, his threes that always seemed to fall and his spectacular dunks. Turned out that Nash's last assist to JRich was on that fabulous reverse alley-hoop. When remembering the playoff run in 2010, I'll always think of JRich and how he got us past Portland. The only negative thing I can remember was his DUI after he joined Phoenix.

Earl Clark. I always thought that he has a ton of potential. The last player I thought that way (aside from obvious stars) was Joe Johnson when he was traded to the Suns. But everybody saying that he'd leave us anyway is probably right. So in a few years time I might look back at yet another "what if" scenario, but for now not much will be missed, and that First Round Pick certainly looks more valuable.

Marcin Gortat used to play in the German League when I still lived there and followed the local league. He was always known for his defense and his rebounding. And he is a Phoenix Sun. Rebounding, defense and Suns? Wow. The last time I got to watch him closely was during the Magic's final run when he played great against Cleveland and solid against the Lakers. He has a reliable jumper from around the free throw line but didn't seem to have a lot of strong post-up moves. Still like the addition a lot - a major upgrade in our low-post D.

Mikael Pitreus seems like a perfect player for the Phoenix Suns. Fast, athletic, a good outside shot and ... wait for it... a good perimeter defender. I'd say he could be our Bruce Bowen, but we already have him in Dudley. The difference between the two appears to be the athletic ability of Pitreus while Dudley has an uncanny ability to always appear in the right place, a nose for the ball, a great basketball IQ or whatever you like to call it.

Vince Carter. Vinsanity! Frank Weiss! Dunk contest 2000! We just traded one of the greatest dunkers for the best dunker ever - hands down. What? He's 33 and hardly dunks? Oh. Well, he can still shoot, although not as good as JRich. And his post-up game consists of less reliable fade-away jumpers rather than Richardson's close-range shots. Moreover, I always saw VC as a guy who'd need to hold onto the ball to be at his best. JRich, on the other hand, developed that knack to cut well and put himself into positions that would get him the ball for open jump shots. But hey! Who's to say Carter can't do that? If he's motivated and give his best, he should fill some of the scoring hole left by JRich's departure. Better not to mention VC's D.

Overall, I'm really pleased with the trade. It doesn't turn us into a contender and won't bring back Amar'e, and I don't know what power forward we could acquire with another trade that would put is into a position to compete for more than the eight spot. I'm still excited for a shake-up of things that weren't working.

 

[jagu]

I think Carter will play better in this open run-n-gun system than the stand and shoot system in Orlando. There's a lot more movement in the Suns offense and Carter can use his offensive smarts to get to the rim. I'm kind of excited to see how Carter and Nash play in the backcourt. It will be a short honeymoon (less than a year) but it will be fun nonetheless. After watching a lot of Orlando games for 2 years, I know Carter is a better defender than he is credited for and he is still a very athletic player (great hops yea that was GREAT because he still flies).

I think this article might help us understand why Carter might be struggling this season.
http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.co...agic-maximizing-vince-carters-offensive-gifts

"This year, Carter has skewed dramatically toward the pick-and-roll, as it accounts for 37.1 percent of his offense. Spot-up chances count for 20.1 percent, and transition counts for 8.4 percent. Quick: what's missing?

Yup. Isolation touches.

In 20 games, and counting his two assists in such situations, Carter has gone one-on-one just 26 times. On any other team, he'd probably double that number. Part of the beauty of Orlando's offense is that it doesn't require much freelancing; when the Magic are at their best, the ball moves in and out, and side to side, with beautiful crispness and precision. They don't need to clear out to let a scorer go one-on-one, because doing to tends to produce inefficient shots.

An upshot to going into isolation mode--and we've seen this situation play out with the hyper-efficient Atlanta Hawks and Portland Trail Blazers in recent years--is that it rarely produces turnovers. Atlanta's "Iso-Joe," as in "Johnson," look ain't pretty, but it almost always results in a solid scorer getting off what is, for him, a decent shot. Going back to Carter's final season as a New Jersey Net, he ranked 22nd in isolation possessions per game, but only two of the players ahead of him turned the ball over less often in those situations. Why not empower Carter a bit by trusting him more with the ball and the entire strong side of the floor to himself and a defender?"

 

[Covert Rain]

I am gonna Miss JRICH. Dude was ballin last year and this year. Playing like one of the best SG in the entire league. I am gonna be all over Carter he comes here and plays like a little girl like he can sometimes. He cries over every freaking injury he gets. Unlike Carter, you never needed to question JRich's toughness.

We are going to miss that. Good luck JRich!!!!

 

[jagu]

I really have no attachments to either Carter or Pietrus. I want Gortat to become a force, he is young, plays aggressive and I'm ecstatic about the potential.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I really have no attachments to either Carter or Pietrus. I want Gortat to become a force, he is young, plays aggressive and I'm ecstatic about the potential.

Pietrus isn't that old, he's athletic, a good defender and a pretty good 3 point shot. Getting rid of Hedo and acquiring Gortat were the biggies in this deal but Pietrus is a nice plus IMO. He's the type of player that might excel with Nash at point.

Steve

 

[Trifecta]

Pietrus isn't that old, he's athletic, a good defender and a pretty good 3 point shot. Getting rid of Hedo and acquiring Gortat were the biggies in this deal but Pietrus is a nice plus IMO. He's the type of player that might excel with Nash at point.

Steve

I too am happy to have Pietrus on board for the same reasons. He seems to have gotten a bad rap because he apparently wears out his welcome and has supposedly bounced around between teams, but he has only been with 2 teams in his career before us and he's in his 8th season. I believe he signed with Orlando as a free agent a couple years back for pretty decent money, so it's not as if Golden State were desperately looking to get rid of him and traded him to Orlando for peanuts. I'm pretty sure I'm remembering all this correctly but someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I can't be bothered to look it up.

As for Carter, I don't really care. Maybe he'll have a resurgence playing with Nash and playing for another contract, but either way he'll be gone at the end of the season.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I'd like to see what the Suns have in Gortat, but if Atlanta were to offer Smith for Gortat and Warrick, I think you have to take that.

Oh Dear god no.

I am not sure where the infatuation of Josh Smith comes from on this board although I am assuming its from the occasional SportsCenter highlight that comes up (and even thought I quoted your post eric thats not directed at you, just in general).

First off he is not a true Power Forward by any stretch. Theres a reason he plays SF on that team.

Second off he has a bad attitude and has bad conditioning which is the anthesis of players they want on this team.

Third he shoots way too many threes for what he makes, and that problem would only be exacerbated on our team with the green light.

Fourth he is not a superstar or even a star- never had been, never will be.

For that deal outlined above, I might do it for Horford.

But Smith? Gortat by himself is the bigger/better prospect.

Smith is a slightly better fedensive version of Corey Maggette IMO. I would take him, but not for some of the packages I have seen proposed on this thread.

 

[elindholm]

First off he is not a true Power Forward by any stretch. Theres a reason he plays SF on that team.

Whether he's a true PF is open to debate, I agree. But I'd say he's the PF for Atlanta.

Third he shoots way too many threes for what he makes

I really don't understand this criticism. He's shooting 43% from three-point range this season on about 1.6 attempts per game.

But Smith? Gortat by himself is the bigger/better prospect.

That's absurd. Smith (December '95) is almost two years younger than Gortat (February '94). I'm excited about adding Gortat to the Suns, but if he had star potential, we would have seen it by now.

Smith is a slightly better fedensive version of Corey Maggette IMO.

He's quite a bit bigger, much healthier, and collects almost twice as many rebounds as Maggette.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I too am happy to have Pietrus on board for the same reasons. He seems to have gotten a bad rap because he apparently wears out his welcome and has supposedly bounced around between teams, but he has only been with 2 teams in his career before us and he's in his 8th season. I believe he signed with Orlando as a free agent a couple years back for pretty decent money, so it's not as if Golden State were desperately looking to get rid of him and traded him to Orlando for peanuts. I'm pretty sure I'm remembering all this correctly but someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I can't be bothered to look it up.

As for Carter, I don't really care. Maybe he'll have a resurgence playing with Nash and playing for another contract, but either way he'll be gone at the end of the season.

Unless you've heard that somewhere else, I'm probably the reason for that (incorrect) reputation. When they first announced that deal, even though I read the name Pietrus, I kept thinking of a different player. I posted something about him wearing out his welcome but now that I'm thinking more clearly, I can't say I've ever actually heard that about him.

The only thing "disappointing" about the guy that I can remember is that he clearly didn't live up to his pre-draft hype. His nickname was the French Michael Jordan and unless French is shorthand for "very very very poor imitation of" he was bound to fall short of that buildup.

I'd be surprised if Carter finishes the season with us. Unless the looming lockout destroys the market for expiring contracts I would expect to see us move him for something of real value. My hope is that it will be for a young player or pick rather than a player that still has a little gas left but I expect we'll move him either way.

Steve

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Whether he's a true PF is open to debate, I agree. But I'd say he's the PF for Atlanta.

He's a SF, just like Horford is a PF playing Center. Anyway my point is we are moving away from D'Antoni's small ball, and this would be a step in the wrong direction IMO

I really don't understand this criticism. He's shooting 43% from three-point range this season on about 1.6 attempts per game.

31%
25%
25%
30%
0%
44%

Thats the last 6 years. Now you tell me which one is the outlier and the smallest sample size. To wrap it up in a bow - we don't want him shooting threes. The good news is he didn't shoot any last year so maybe hes learnign to pick his spots.

That's absurd. Smith (December '95) is almost two years younger than Gortat (February '94). I'm excited about adding Gortat to the Suns, but if he had star potential, we would have seen it by now.

Not sure how being younger really matters as we know what Smith is going to be. Hes had the playing time and years in the league. Gortat has not and I am not sure if you had heard of him much before Saturday but he was seen as the best young big man that wasn't getting an opportunity. In terms of NBA people and including position played and salary

Gortat > Josh Smith

There was literally teams inquiring every day on Gortat, including the Mavericks who would be starting him over Chandler and Haywood had his offer sheet not been matched last offseason.

I can get a hoopshype link to verify that if you like

He's quite a bit bigger, much healthier, and collects almost twice as many rebounds as Maggette.

Yup and I like him better then Maggette. But thats depending on what we have to give up. I just dont think he is the "missing piece" that many on this board believe him to be.

The funny thing is a couple days ago you were questioning the viablity of Smith on this team, and now are his advocate. Looks like the board got to you

Anyways when you have the chance to recreate "J-SMOOVE" and "Chillz" on the West Coast you move mountains to make it happen

 

[elindholm]

Thats the last 6 years. Now you tell me which one is the outlier and the smallest sample size.

Established players can improve their three-point shooting -- just look at Kidd, who has improbably become one of the best three-point shooters in the league (or, rather, was for his first 2 1/2 years since rejoining the Mavericks; he's off this year).

To wrap it up in a bow - we don't want him shooting threes.

I'm not sure why you think that simply repeating yourself reinforces your point. 1.6 attempts per game is trivial -- Barkley used to shoot almost twice that many -- and if he's making them at a good rate, it's a small positive.

I'm not sure why you think that simply repeating yourself reinforces your point. 1.6 attempts per game is trivial -- Barkley used to shoot almost twice that many -- and if he's making them at a good rate, it's a small positive.

I'm not sure why you think that simply repeating yourself reinforces your point. 1.6 attempts per game is trivial -- Barkley used to shoot almost twice that many -- and if he's making them at a good rate, it's a small positive.

I'm not sure why you think that simply repeating yourself reinforces your point.

Not sure how being younger really matters as we know what Smith is going to be. Hes had the playing time and years in the league. Gortat has not and I am not sure if you had heard of him much before Saturday but he was seen as the best young big man that wasn't getting an opportunity.

By some people, yes. I know that he was a hot property. I'm quite surprised that Orlando gave him up. I know that the Suns are already deluged with calls about him. On the other hand, I also know that (a) the Magic said he would play a bigger role this year, and he hasn't, and (b) they tried starting him alongside Howard for a game or two, and it was a failure.

Also, I'd bet anything that you didn't know, before I just told you, that he's almost 27 years old. You didn't, right?

In terms of NBA people and including position played and salary

Gortat > Josh Smith

I absolutely disagree and think you are misinterpreting the chatter you read.

There was literally teams inquiring every day on Gortat, including the Mavericks who would be starting him over Chandler and Haywood had his offer sheet not been matched last offseason.

Yes, I know that, although I doubt he'd be starting over Chandler.

I just dont think he is the "missing piece" that many on this board believe him to be.

I don't either, but neither is Gortat. Gortat is an above-average backup center. Now, don't get me wrong, it's great that the Suns have an above-average backup center. They haven't had that since the days of Mark West and Oliver Miller. But for all of the whining I hear about building toward a championship, does anyone think that having Gortat as your backup center is the key to a championship? The Magic obviously don't, and they know him better than anyone.

The funny thing is a couple days ago you were questioning the viablity of Smith on this team, and now are his advocate. Looks like the board got to you

This board's terrible reading comprehension is getting to me, that's for damn sure.

What I've said is that I don't think the Hawks are shopping Smith. If he can be had, I'd be moderately interested in seeing him on the Suns. That's as far as my advocacy goes. I'm concerned about his poor rebounding numbers, but they're better than Warrick's, and Gortat's per-minute rebound rate has declined every year he's been in the league.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He's a SF, just like Horford is a PF playing Center. Anyway my point is we are moving away from D'Antoni's small ball, and this would be a step in the wrong direction IMO

I'd imagine you're probably trying to make the point that he is a better player at SF than PF but it's ABSURD to categorically state that he is a SF and not a PF. He may possess attributes of a small forward but he clearly possesses attributes of a power forward also. Youngest player ever to record 500 blocks, youngest player ever to record 1000 blocks and youngest player ever to record 10 blocks in one game doesn't scream small forward to me. He also has a power game down low and questionable shooting skills from distance.

31%
25%
25%
30%
0%
44%

Thats the last 6 years. Now you tell me which one is the outlier and the smallest sample size. To wrap it up in a bow - we don't want him shooting threes. The good news is he didn't shoot any last year so maybe hes learnign to pick his spots.

Eric was talking about number of attempts and you're trying to prove him wrong with 3 point shooting percentage stats. And as for your suggestion that perhaps he's learning when to pick his 3 point shots - he's averaged 1.3 shots per game (from 3 point distance) over his career so it doesn't seem like he's ever been infatuated with that shot, which runs counter to your argument.

Gortat > Josh Smith

You could be right, I might be overvaluing Josh Smith. I don't claim to be an expert on the guy. However, between highlight clips and the half dozen games a year I have seen him play, he looks like quite a talent to me. I've heard snippets about his "head and heart" which does concern me but as I look around the league, there aren't a lot of young (potential) superstars on the market. If Smith is on the market (and that's questionable), I think it's worth the gamble. I've read positive comments about Gortat but I've never seen his name mentioned as a future superstar.

There was literally teams inquiring every day on Gortat, including the Mavericks who would be starting him over Chandler and Haywood had his offer sheet not been matched last offseason.

I can get a hoopshype link to verify that if you like

I know you weren't talking to me but yeah, I'd love to see a Hoopsype link that verifies your claim that there were teams inquiring every day on Gortat. I'm pretty sure they took at least Thanksgiving off in their heated pursuit of the guy. And we all know that the Mavs wanted him, wasn't it their contract offer that Orlando matched?

Yup and I like him better then Maggette. But thats depending on what we have to give up. I just dont think he is the "missing piece" that many on this board believe him to be.

I'm not sure about missing piece. I look at this team and I'm now hopeful following this recent deal but I'm still not sure we're just a piece away. I think Smith would help a lot right now but even more importantly he'd be a nice piece for the future. I'd love to add him but I want to see him playing alongside a decent center, not at the expense of one.

Steve

 

[jagu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqhQFIaezzA&feature=related

Gortat's highlights-- pretty impressive pick and roll finishes.

 

[FArting]

I like this trade.

 

[AfroSuns]

Man, that Hedo signing was just a mistake, we all know it and for gentry to say this publicly says a lot

“It wasn’t a good fit,” Gentry said. “I thought it would be a better fit. It didn’t work out. That was a disappointment.”

Article here http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArEBXWl6WXr9DswDsIKW18.8vLYF?slug=mc-sunstrade121810

 

[TBaslim]

Please no trade of Gortat for someone like Smith until we see how he does in the Suns system. Same with Lopez. Let's see what having a full 40+ minutes of athletic, defensive-minded true centers does for the team before getting rid of one of them, esp for Smith or Jason Thompson.

For Kevin Love? Sure, ship one of them now. Love appears to be a real-deal franchise player. Al Horford? Same thing. Do a trade yesterday. For Josh Smith? Meh not so sure - give it some time.

Vince Carter, Warrick and a pick or two for Smith in some kind of 3-way trade? No problem.

Badly needed centers who can defend and actually play in our system? Bigger assets that need a bigger return.

 

[Errntknght]

Steve,

Unless you've heard that somewhere else, I'm probably the reason for that (incorrect) reputation. When they first announced that deal, even though I read the name Pietrus, I kept thinking of a different player. I posted something about him wearing out his welcome but now that I'm thinking more clearly, I can't say I've ever actually heard that about him.

I read it someplace else at least a month ago. The statement I read specifically mentioned a falling out between Pietrus and the coach. I repeated it then in a post where I conjectured a couple of trades we might make with Orlando if they got to the point of welcoming Hedo back. (At the time they were running hot so the odds of them wanting Hedo then didn't look good. Luckily for us their recent losing streak came about the same time our FO finally realized Turkoglu was a disaster for us.)

That's not to say that there was ever much truth about Pietrus - IIRC it was a local Orlando sports writer that made the comment. I believe he did say that Pietrus had 'bounced around for a reason' and I didn't bother to verify that he'd bounced at all.

 

[Chaplin]

I read it someplace else at least a month ago. The statement I read specifically mentioned a falling out between Pietrus and the coach. I repeated it then in a post where I conjectured a couple of trades we might make with Orlando if they got to the point of welcoming Hedo back. (At the time they were running hot so the odds of them wanting Hedo then didn't look good. Luckily for us their recent losing streak came about the same time our FO finally realized Turkoglu was a disaster for us.)

That's not to say that there was ever much truth about Pietrus - IIRC it was a local Orlando sports writer that made the comment. I believe he did say that Pietrus had 'bounced around for a reason' and I didn't bother to verify that he'd bounced at all.

Stan Van Gundy had a falling out with a player? What a shocker!

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve,

I read it someplace else at least a month ago. The statement I read specifically mentioned a falling out between Pietrus and the coach. I repeated it then in a post where I conjectured a couple of trades we might make with Orlando if they got to the point of welcoming Hedo back. (At the time they were running hot so the odds of them wanting Hedo then didn't look good. Luckily for us their recent losing streak came about the same time our FO finally realized Turkoglu was a disaster for us.)

That's not to say that there was ever much truth about Pietrus - IIRC it was a local Orlando sports writer that made the comment. I believe he did say that Pietrus had 'bounced around for a reason' and I didn't bother to verify that he'd bounced at all.

Well, it's good to know it wasn't my loose tongue and mis-identification that started the rumors flying about the guy. I'm not too worried about the clash with Stan Van Gundy. The reason I know so little about Gortat is that I refuse to watch any non-Suns game that has a Van Gundy on the sidelines. I can't stand Jeff, and I can't stand Stan's sideline antics. I can't even imagine having to play for that guy.

Steve