jalen rose on espn says

[schutd]

And this is a serious question. I'm a basketball fan, but not a total nerd. Isnt there some credence to the fact that in every playoff series EVER, Marion is always asked to guard the opponents best player, and THAT might be way his offensive stats take a hit? I dont buy into it completely, I believe Marion DOES have issues in the monster games, but seriously, I thought Marion was awesome this post season, and it was mainly becasue he was defending like a champ and was around EVERY loose ball. Did Marion get the credit for tipping Nash's 3 point miss back to Nash? Nope. But Nash got the credit for making it the second time. (Analogy courtesy of SI...)

 

[Cheesebeef]

Chauncey Billups and Richard Hamilton have not met their reg season stats either in the playoffs, fact is the defense is better.

Could you be any more wrong? Chauncy's career - 17.5 ppg playoffs 40.7% shooting - 14.5 regular season, 41.2% ... Finals MVP under his belt... not making 17 million dollars a year.

Rip Hamilton - 20.7 ppg, 43.9% shooting in the playoffs - 17.9 ppg, 45.1% in the regular season.

Shawn Marion - 17.1 ppg in the playoffs, 46.3% shooting - 18.6 ppg in the playoffs, 47.9% shooting.

and this doesn't even take into consideration what Chauncy and Rip have actually ACCOMPLISHED in the playoffs, winning two Eastern Conference Titles, an NBA Title and one of them has a Finals MVP. oh yeah, and there's this other little thing - neither of those guys come CLOSE TO MAKING 17 MILLION DOLLARS.

but, yeah, bringing them up really made your point for ya!

 

[elindholm]

Isnt there some credence to the fact that in every playoff series EVER, Marion is always asked to guard the opponents best player, and THAT might be way his offensive stats take a hit?

Not really. It's because his offensive game isn't built for the playoffs.

And yes, he draws tough defensive assignments, but it's not like he does particularly well with them. He just gets all of the attention because (a) he asks for it and (b) he's usually attempting to cover for one of the team's two major defensive shortcomings, those being Nash and the compulsion toward small-ball.

If Marion were on a competent, balanced defensive team, no one would say anything about his defense. It would be "fine." But since the Suns have no one who can guard PGs and almost no one who can guard big men, Marion gets pressed into service, and everyone's supposed to sing his praises for being merely competent.

I thought Marion was awesome this post season, and it was mainly becasue he was defending like a champ and was around EVERY loose ball.

Marion was fine this postseason. I wish he would have guarded Parker a little more tightly, the way he did in Game 2 (only), but he was fine. He hit more than his share of threes and kept himself on the floor.

It's the chemistry problem that requires something to be done, not Marion in particular.

Did Marion get the credit for tipping Nash's 3 point miss back to Nash?

I swear this argument cracks me up. It's like Marion's the only player in the NBA who ever got a critical offensive rebound. Who tipped the ball to Paxson in 1993? No one remembers. Who tipped the ball to Horry against the Kings a few years ago? Again, no one remembers. Should we go on a tirade about those poor neglected heroes too?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Not really. It's because his offensive game isn't built for the playoffs.

And yes, he draws tough defensive assignments, but it's not like he does particularly well with them. He just gets all of the attention because (a) he asks for it and (b) he's usually attempting to cover for one of the team's two major defensive shortcomings, those being Nash and the compulsion toward small-ball.

If Marion were on a competent, balanced defensive team, no one would say anything about his defense. It would be "fine." But since the Suns have no one who can guard PGs and almost no one who can guard big men, Marion gets pressed into service, and everyone's supposed to sing his praises for being merely competent.



Marion was fine this postseason. I wish he would have guarded Parker a little more tightly, the way he did in Game 2 (only), but he was fine. He hit more than his share of threes and kept himself on the floor.

It's the chemistry problem that requires something to be done, not Marion in particular.



I swear this argument cracks me up. It's like Marion's the only player in the NBA who ever got a critical offensive rebound. Who tipped the ball to Paxson in 1993? No one remembers. Who tipped the ball to Horry against the Kings a few years ago? Again, no one remembers. Should we go on a tirade about those poor neglected heroes too?

By the way - when Horry and Paxson had those shots tipped back out to them it was actually in the post-season. Not in the regular season against the soft as tissue Mavericks.

Isn't that the point of this discussion. Marion's disappearing in the playoffs?

 

[D-Dogg]

Who tipped the ball to Horry against the Kings a few years ago?

Vlade.

 

[Ryanwb]

Vlade.

You could never keep your eyes off those shorts

 

[elindholm]

Vlade.

Thanks, but the question was obviously rhetorical. Although maybe it's not: I don't recall Divac ever whining about a lack of respect; he was content to be the third- or fourth-best player on some championship teams.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Vlade.

Actually I remembered that too. And didn't Ho Grant tip it out to Paxson?

But i still agree with your point eric.

 

[arthurracoon]

*sigh*

thanks alot shawn...

argh

 

[Gaddabout]

I don't recall Divac ever whining about a lack of respect; he was content to be the third- or fourth-best player on some championship teams.

Is wheezing like whining?

 

[Ryanwb]

I don't recall Divac ever whining about a lack of respect;

That's because he spent most of the time telling people he wasn't Yakov Smirnoff

You must be registered for see images

 

[D-Dogg]

Thanks, but the question was obviously rhetorical. Although maybe it's not: I don't recall Divac ever whining about a lack of respect; he was content to be the third- or fourth-best player on some championship teams.

Yes, it was rhetorical, but I remember it mainly because at heart I've always believed Vlade to be a Laker no matter what. So it was funny he tipped out for a huge PIVOTAL shot by the Lakers.

When Vlade was moved to charlotte for Kobe, he reportedly commented that he was ok with it as long as it made the Lakers better.

I love Vlade.

 

[elindholm]

Yes, it was rhetorical, but I remember it mainly because at heart I've always believed Vlade to be a Laker no matter what.

LOL, I didn't get the joke originally. Yeah, that's pretty funny.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I remember watching the playoffs this year and thinking to myself

"Well, no one is going to be able to criticize Marion for not showing up in the post season this year. Even if it doesn't show up in the stats, he has played fantastic."

But here it is again. He got a rep early about the playoffs, and then people forget about what they actually saw in the games. They just look at numbers.

This Suns team needs exactly what Marion brings to the table, and there is no one in the league who could fill that need like Shawn does--except KG. He's the only other player who could fill that role.

Even then, KG will not run the break like Shawn. No one can.

So, if a KG for Marion trade doesn't happen, its not the end of the world. If it does, its a step up, but not nearly as big a step as some might think.

I don't blame Shawn at all for not wanting to go to Boston. Would you? He wants to win a championship, and he wants to do it here, with this team. Those are all admirable desires. I'll root for him just as much if he's here next year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I remember watching the playoffs this year and thinking to myself

"Well, no one is going to be able to criticize Marion for not showing up in the post season this year. Even if it doesn't show up in the stats, he has played fantastic."

But here it is again. He got a rep early about the playoffs, and then people forget about what they actually saw in the games. They just look at numbers.

if you're assuming the above, I'm gonna assume you didn't watch Game 1 of the Spurs series where Shawn got torched by Parker and Nash all about called him out after the game and you didn't watch the second half of Game 5 when Shawn went completely tortilla or Game 6 when Shawn was AWOL again, getting torched and not making an impact on offense.

Do you know why the early rep he got in the playoff has stuck? Because it he hasn't gotten any better on the court in crunch time, plain and simple. It's so easy to say "stats don't tell the whole story" without having anything to back it up. I watched the game and so did everyone else and almost everyone can agree that not only did his stats back up the gripes, but his play certainly did as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So, if a KG for Marion trade doesn't happen, its not the end of the world. If it does, its a step up, but not nearly as big a step as some might think.

KG averages 3 more boards, 5 more points and 3 more assists and is an all-world defender - so that's 3 more rebounds (a huge number for a team consistently outrebounded), is responsible for 11 MORE POINTS and he's a lock down defender - it's not just a step up, IT'S A MONUMENTAL STEP UP - especially since in the playoffs, that quality you love so much about Shawn - getting on the break - is totally minimized with the way the post-season play goes.

 

[D-Dogg]

KG averages 3 more boards, 5 more points and 3 more assists and is an all-world defender - so that's 3 more rebounds (a huge number for a team consistently outrebounded), is responsible for 11 MORE POINTS and he's a lock down defender - it's not just a step up, IT'S A MONUMENTAL STEP UP - especially since in the playoffs, that quality you love so much about Shawn - getting on the break - is totally minimized with the way the post-season play goes.

Put it this way (and please don't rehash all the pissnmoan about officiating), the Suns beat the Lakers two years ago because Lamar Odom failed to secure a rebound that was popped out to Tim Thomas who nailed a three and saved your series. Lamar gets that rebound, Lakers advance.

If you can improve your rebounding numbers by 3 or your points by 5 or your assists, you do it because in the playoffs it often comes down to the team that just needed one more friggin rebound. Or a few points. Or something extra you aren't getting.

It's why I'd gladly exchange LO and Bynum for KG, but I wouldn't do the same for Jermaine O'Neal. Because I can COUNT on KG getting those points every freaking night, and the boards, and doing what it takes. As much as I like Lamar, I can't count on him. And you guys can't count on Marion in the playoffs.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

if you're assuming the above, I'm gonna assume you didn't watch Game 1 of the Spurs series where Shawn got torched by Parker and Nash all about called him out after the game and you didn't watch the second half of Game 5 when Shawn went completely tortilla or Game 6 when Shawn was AWOL again, getting torched and not making an impact on offense.

Do you know why the early rep he got in the playoff has stuck? Because it he hasn't gotten any better on the court in crunch time, plain and simple. It's so easy to say "stats don't tell the whole story" without having anything to back it up. I watched the game and so did everyone else and almost everyone can agree that not only did his stats back up the gripes, but his play certainly did as well.

As long as we are slinging crap, his "poor" play in the Spurs series (he was the ONLY reason game 5 was a possible win before being given away by Nash) in no way overshadows the completely idiotic move by Diaw and Stat. So if you are going to place blame for the early exit, start there first and foremost. Anyways, that went a bit off topic, but the revisionism around here gets pretty bad at times, in my opinion. Shawn is certainly not a gifted offensive player outside of sheer hustle and athleticism, but he means a lot more to who the Suns are than what you give him credit for.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Put it this way (and please don't rehash all the pissnmoan about officiating), the Suns beat the Lakers two years ago because Lamar Odom failed to secure a rebound that was popped out to Tim Thomas who nailed a three and saved your series. Lamar gets that rebound, Lakers advance.

If you can improve your rebounding numbers by 3 or your points by 5 or your assists, you do it because in the playoffs it often comes down to the team that just needed one more friggin rebound. Or a few points. Or something extra you aren't getting.

It's why I'd gladly exchange LO and Bynum for KG, but I wouldn't do the same for Jermaine O'Neal. Because I can COUNT on KG getting those points every freaking night, and the boards, and doing what it takes. As much as I like Lamar, I can't count on him. And you guys can't count on Marion in the playoffs.

Of course, it was Marion that made the play in question here...

 

[elindholm]

This Suns team needs exactly what Marion brings to the table, and there is no one in the league who could fill that need like Shawn does--except KG. He's the only other player who could fill that role.

Even then, KG will not run the break like Shawn. No one can.

And in the playoffs, no one at all can run the break like Marion, not even Marion himself, because good defensive teams don't allow it. That's why his numbers nosedive.

I agree that Garnett wouldn't leak out on the break as effectively as Marion does in the regular season. However, since that play has zero value in the postseason, I wouldn't be sorry to see it go. I don't even really want to see it in the regular season anymore either -- it's just fool's gold.

I agree that Marion's regular-season contributions would be impossible to replace. But, while he was adequate in the last playoff run (brief though it was, lasting all of eleven games), he didn't bring anything to the table that made me think, "Wow, we sure wouldn't be able to find anyone else who could do that!"

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Im pretty astouded by the overwhelming anti-Marion tirades going on in here. Maybe Marion just doesnt want to go to the East Coast? Maybe he hates Danny Ainge? Maybe hr doesnt want to lose a shot at a ring? Seems logical to me. I know I wouldnt want to go play for Boston if I were on the Suns.

Im going to hold this over a lot of peoples heads next season if Marion's a Sun.

Maybe he just doesn't want to go from a Championship Contender to a team that had the 2nd worst record in basketball and who's biggest hope this off-season was to land one of the top two.

Also, frankly if the only two choices are trading Amare or seeing KG on the Lakers, then in my mind you may as well bid Phoenix's chances of landing Garnett goodbye now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As long as we are slinging crap, his "poor" play in the Spurs series (he was the ONLY reason game 5 was a possible win before being given away by Nash) in no way overshadows the completely idiotic move by Diaw and Stat. So if you are going to place blame for the early exit, start there first and foremost.

I've got no issue with that and I think Diaw is a complete waste of space right now, and Amare definitely deserves some blame - however, that's just ONE GAME where Amare crapped his pants, as opposed to 66% of the entire playoff career of Marion. That's why he gets dumped on. There's always a myriad of reasons why the Suns lose, but the ONE constant amongst all of those is Marion's routine tortilla job in the playoffs, year in and year out. Whereas, besides Amare's brain fart this year, the guy COMPLETELY raises his game to another level in every single stat.

 

[schutd]

I swear this argument cracks me up. It's like Marion's the only player in the NBA who ever got a critical offensive rebound. Who tipped the ball to Paxson in 1993? No one remembers. Who tipped the ball to Horry against the Kings a few years ago? Again, no one remembers. Should we go on a tirade about those poor neglected heroes too?

Its not an argument, its merely one example of something that Marion has REGULARLY excelled at; the proverbial "little things" The "hustle playes" the "intangibles" Whatever you wanna call it. Marion is a hell of a player, who makes it known a bit to much that he feels under appreciated. That puts a target on his back, and y'all are real good at finding the bullseye lately.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

I've got no issue with that and I think Diaw is a complete waste of space right now, and Amare definitely deserves some blame - however, that's just ONE GAME where Amare crapped his pants, as opposed to 66% of the entire playoff career of Marion. That's why he gets dumped on. There's always a myriad of reasons why the Suns lose, but the ONE constant amongst all of those is Marion's routine tortilla job in the playoffs, year in and year out. Whereas, besides Amare's brain fart this year, the guy COMPLETELY raises his game to another level in every single stat.

And that one game probably cost the Suns a ring, unfortunately.

 

[D-Dogg]

Of course, it was Marion that made the play in question here...

Yes but I probably would have got that rebound with how far Lamar was out of position. KG in that spot and Marion gets nothing. See.