James Harden interested in joining the Suns next summer

[Russ Smith]

Yah James Harden is a terrible defender:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TDVWnZ5K8



Arguing Eric Gordon is a better all around player than Harden is crazy talk. Harden handles the ball better, passes much better, defends much much better, rebounds better, is bigger, etc.

I'd say Gordon is a better pure shooter, but their career FG and 3PT% are nearly identical, 45% FG & 37% 3PT for Gordon, 44% FG & 37% 3PT for Harden. So even in that area, the difference isn't large.

Eric Gordon's career defense rating is 113 and has a Defensive win share of 2.9. Hardens numbers are 106 and 6.4, respectively (by the by, Hardens offensive win shares are better too).

harden is better right now because he's coming off his best year and Gordon is coming off an injury year.

Gordon's last full year he had .5 APG better than Harden. Harden is a better rebounder and he handles the ball better but it's not like Gordon had Durant to feed the ball too (he was with the Clips that year) to rack up assists.

Comparing their FG% is unfair because Gordon has been playing with Eric Bledsoe or last year Bellinelli or Greivis Vazquez as the PG. Look at who Gordon has played with before they got Griffin the leading scorers for the Clips were Randolph one year and Kaman the next. Griffin had his big year and not surprising at all, Gordon's PPG went up 6 full points. Lot easier to play with Durant and Westbrook than Kaman and Bledsoe.

I think today Harden is better, Gordon had an injury plagued year. I don't think Harden is dramatically better though, just in a much better situation.

 

[Joe Mama]

What?! Harden is a far better all around player. Gordon is a better shooter, thats it. Harden is better at everything else. Passing, rebounding, attacking the rim, defense.

And you cant discount the injury factor. As good as our staff is they are no God. Just look at Penny Hardaway while he was here. They might be able to help Gordon, but so far his career has been a mess of injuries.

And as nice as Ibaka's shot blocking is, there are better post defenders in the NBA. And its not like he forced Miami out of the paint. He is a good help defender, but he struggles on man defense in the post.

I don't know. When I watched video of Gordon on defense and attacking the basket I liked what I saw. Harden is very good at splitting a pick and roll, but I would say Gordon is better at taking somebody off the dribble and going to the basket. Keep in mind that much of the time Harden is playing alongside a superstar on offense.

I've seen James Harden do a great job of defending, and I've seen him look pretty bad. James Harden is clearly a better distributor, and he's built like a tank and doesn't have the injury history.

Totally agree about Ibaka. Shot blockers are great, but he doesn't defend one-on-one or rebound like the other great defenders that were given maximum or near maximum contracts. If injury/age was not a issue I would take Tyson Chandler's defense any day of the week over Ibaka's and probably Howard's.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't know. When I watched video of Gordon on defense and attacking the basket I liked what I saw. Harden is very good at splitting a pick and roll, but I would say Gordon is better at taking somebody off the dribble and going to the basket. Keep in mind that much of the time Harden is playing alongside a superstar on offense.

I've seen James Harden do a great job of defending, and I've seen him look pretty bad. James Harden is clearly a better distributor, and he's built like a tank and doesn't have the injury history.

Totally agree about Ibaka. Shot blockers are great, but he doesn't defend one-on-one or rebound like the other great defenders that were given maximum or near maximum contracts. If injury/age was not a issue I would take Tyson Chandler's defense any day of the week over Ibaka's and probably Howard's.

The thing is, with Gordon what we've mostly watched over the last year is old youtube highlight videos, that give a false impression of his ability to attack the rim. While with Harden we actually watched him play... a lot over the last few months. Not saying Gordon isnt good at it, but Harden is much much better at attacking the basket. Just look at his FT per shot attempt compared to Gordon. Harden drew fouls on 21% of his attempts last year, in Gordon's last healthy season his rate was 13%.

And yes, Harden does have Durant and Westbrook, but neither of them are exactly distributors. OKC runs a ton of ISO (too much for my taste) so other guys dont gain a big boost from having 2 stars, and Harden is their scorer off the bench, he plays stretches of each game where he is OKCs main threat on offense.

 

[Phrazbit]

Harden gave Kobe hell? The key to that series was Brooks finally figuring out Harden couldn't guard Kobe and switching later in games putting either Thabo or at times Durant on Kobe.

Are you kidding me? Did you even look at the link? Not only did Harden blatently kill Kobe on film, but in the stats it was ridiculous. He shot 36% while Harden was covering him, Kobe shot 55% with Thabo out there! What were you watching?!

 

[slinslin]

If the thunder let him hit free agency, suns can offer a front loaded contract making it difficult for them match. If Ibaka, and Harden have both good years, expect one of them to be gone.

No,

it is the same exact thing as the Gordon scenario.

A max contract can't really be front or back-loaded. The poison pill type of deal the Rockets made for Asik and Lin is only really possible for players picked in the 2nd round.

 

[Covert Rain]

You know what kills me is that the market in the NBA is giving guys max contracts that don't deserve them. I would love to get my hands on Harden but he is not a max contract guy. Max contracts should be reserved for the LeBrons, Kobe's and Wade's of the world.

Unfortunately, if the Suns or any other team wants to sign him it's probably going to cost them a max contract. Harden is not a superstar player but he if he reaches the open market, it's going to cost someone some cake.

 

[Phrazbit]

You know what kills me is that the market in the NBA is giving guys max contracts that don't deserve them. I would love to get my hands on Harden but he is not a max contract guy. Max contracts should be reserved for the LeBrons, Kobe's and Wade's of the world.

Unfortunately, if the Suns or any other team wants to sign him it's probably going to cost them a max contract. Harden is not a superstar player but he if he reaches the open market, it's going to cost someone some cake.

I agree too many guys get max deals. But they shouldnt just be for the super duper stars. All-NBA type players should be the recipients.

Not that I think we will get him away, but getting another year to look at Harden is good. If he were on the market right at this moment I wouldnt not consider him a max worthy player.

 

[Russ Smith]

Are you kidding me? Did you even look at the link? Not only did Harden blatently kill Kobe on film, but in the stats it was ridiculous. He shot 36% while Harden was covering him, Kobe shot 55% with Thabo out there! What were you watching?!

I was watching the 4th quarter of the games late in that series where Brooks took Harden off Kobe and the announcers even commented that it was an obvious key to the series.

Him putting Durant on Kobe was crucial in them winning that series.

http://thunderousintentions.com/201...durant-shuts-down-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time/

I'm not saying Harden is a bad defender but he's not nearly as good as you're making him out to be.

Also you're reading that link incorrectly, it doesn't say Harden on Kobe, it says Harden on "THE COURT" as in he was in the game. it makes no claim as to who he was guarding. And again in several of the games in the Lakers series they took him off Kobe and put Durant or Thabo on him.



I agree about the ISOs but again, very few times in games is Harden being guarded by the other teams best defender, usually it's the 3rd best depending on the matchup. Generally speaking the best defender takes Durant unless he's too small, then he takes Westbrook. It's MUCH different when teams put their best defender on you every game.

He's a very good player but again Colangelo called him a better than adequate defender, teams that are interested in getting him down the line are interested in his offense, not his defense.

 

[Phrazbit]

He is a good defender. He is not as good as Thabo, but Thabo is arguably the best wing defender in the league. And when Thabo is not in, Harden is OKC's best wing defender. I absolutely believe that to be true. I am not claiming he is an all-nba defender, but he is definetly good. And when teams sign him it will be for his all around game.

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pl...s-Kobe-Bryant|200757,977;year=201112;season=p

Those are Kobe's stats with Thabo in the game. When you contrast them to Harden's stats its pretty clear that for the majority of the action they switched off, the end of game 4 not withstanding. And you can assume by that article you linked that Durant covering Kobe was the exception not the rule.

One note about those stats that does show how amazing Thabo is... while Kobe did shoot a better percentage against him than Harden, Kobe's actual shot attempts were waaaaaaaay lower with Thabo on him, because he covers so well that even Kobe had to give the ball up. Thabo is a monster on D, to bad he is such a liability on offense. If he could get a consistent 3pt shot he could be like a super-rich man's version of Bell.

 

[Russ Smith]

He is a good defender. He is not as good as Thabo, but Thabo is arguably the best wing defender in the league. And when Thabo is not in, Harden is OKC's best wing defender. I absolutely believe that to be true. I am not claiming he is an all-nba defender, but he is definetly good. And when teams sign him it will be for his all around game.

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pl...s-Kobe-Bryant|200757,977;year=201112;season=p

Those are Kobe's stats with Thabo in the game. When you contrast them to Harden's stats its pretty clear that for the majority of the action they switched off, the end of game 4 not withstanding. And you can assume by that article you linked that Durant covering Kobe was the exception not the rule.

One note about those stats that does show how amazing Thabo is... while Kobe did shoot a better percentage against him than Harden, Kobe's actual shot attempts were waaaaaaaay lower with Thabo on him, because he covers so well that even Kobe had to give the ball up. Thabo is a monster on D, to bad he is such a liability on offense. If he could get a consistent 3pt shot he could be like a super-rich man's version of Bell.

Durant guarded him in game 4 precisely because Kobe lit him up at the end of game 3 with 14 4th quarter points and getting to the line repeatedly. That's why Brooks made the move.

I don't think he's a bad defender, I just don't think saying he made it hell for Kobe is accurate, OKC wore Kobe down throwing different guys at him and it's why they were able to pull out some of those games at the end. 3 of those 5 games were actually close at the end, OKC won 2 of those and the one they lost was the one that convinced Brooks to change the matchup.

Agreed on Thabo, he is actually a better defender than Ibaka but because he doesn't get the highlight reel plays he doesn't get the attention Serge does.

I don't fault Harden at all for not stopping LeBron, nobody can, frankly I felt that was a coaching issue they should have had Thabo on him more.

What was telling in that series is Mia was the rare team that has enough good players that Harden is being guarded by a quality defender, and he really struggled against it. That's what it's like being the primary scorer on a team.

 

[chickenhead]

Well, we're not getting either Gordon or Harden for next year, so we'll have time to watch both some more. Obviously Harden has the additional marketability for the Suns of having played at ASU. Not saying that Sun Devil basketball is a marketing machine by any means, but a lot of the fans in the Valley will be predisposed to rotting for him. In the franchise's eyes that could make up a little for the max contract.

 

[JCSunsfan]

, but a lot of the fans in the Valley will be predisposed to rotting for him.

Yeah, that sounds right.

 

[chickenhead]

Haha, nice catch. I guess that's what we've been doing lately anyway.

 

[sunsfan88]

You know what kills me is that the market in the NBA is giving guys max contracts that don't deserve them. I would love to get my hands on Harden but he is not a max contract guy. Max contracts should be reserved for the LeBrons, Kobe's and Wade's of the world.

Unfortunately, if the Suns or any other team wants to sign him it's probably going to cost them a max contract. Harden is not a superstar player but he if he reaches the open market, it's going to cost someone some cake.

Yea but there's a difference.

Max contracts aren't what they used to be under the old CBA. Max $$ is much less in the new CBA which is why teams are not reluctant at all to give out max deals to players who they feel is worthy.

For example, compare Eric Gordon's contract to Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Carmelo Anthony etc and you'll see the difference.

 

[Gaddabout]

Glad we've established Harden can't guard Kobe. Because if he could, the Suns couldn't afford him.

Thabo and Durant are very long. Kobe couldn't get those fades over them and couldn't get around them. Harden is more of a bumper and team defense kind of player, and he'll keep players honest, at least.

 

[mojorizen7]

By the time the Suns get a nice,balanced,talented roster together we wont have to worry about guarding Kobe anymore me thinks.

First things first. Get better. I don't care about the powers in the West right now.

 

[thephoenixson28]

Guess no harden for the suns


Phoenix Suns fans were encouraged during the early stages of the Summer Olympics when former Arizona State and current Oklahoma City Thunder star James Harden told a Valley writer that he'd be open to signing with the Suns after his contract runs out.
But in an interview with Slam Magazine, Harden now says he's "pretty sure" that he'll re-sign with Oklahoma City.

"I'm pretty, a hundred percent, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be in Oklahoma City,' Harden said during the interview. "I'll let my agent and Mr. Presti and [Thunder owner Clay] Bennett discuss all that, so I'll let them handle that and stay out of it for right now and worry about the USA Olympics."

Harden is one of four Thunder players currently playing in the Olympics in London and is averaging 6.4 points per game for undefeated Team USA.

He is the reigning NBA Sixth Man of the Year.

 

[Griffin]

Guess no harden for the suns

If Harden is so committed to the Thunder and the Thunder want to keep him, why haven't they agreed on an extension yet?

I'll wait until Harden actually accepts that forthcoming Thunder way-below-the-market offer of half the money that Durant and Westbrook are already making in order to stay in OKC, which is about all that team can offer to keep both him and Ibaka and not go into LT territory. I am not convinced he is willing to take a major pay-cut, or that OKC is willing or able to afford to pay a boatload of luxury tax in order to give him market value.

 

[thephoenixson28]

If Harden is so committed to the Thunder and the Thunder want to keep him, why haven't they agreed on an extension yet?

I'll wait until Harden actually accepts that forthcoming Thunder way-below-the-market offer of half the money that Durant and Westbrook are already making in order to stay in OKC, which is about all that team can offer to keep both him and Ibaka and not go into LT territory. I am not convinced he is willing to take a major pay-cut, or that OKC is willing or able to afford to pay a boatload of luxury tax in order to give him market value.

Cuz they don't have to meet a deadline anytime soon

 

[SirStefan32]

He's doing and saying the right (PR) thing. He's a smart guy.

 

[sunsfan88]

Guess no harden for the suns


Phoenix Suns fans were encouraged during the early stages of the Summer Olympics when former Arizona State and current Oklahoma City Thunder star James Harden told a Valley writer that he'd be open to signing with the Suns after his contract runs out.
But in an interview with Slam Magazine, Harden now says he's "pretty sure" that he'll re-sign with Oklahoma City.

"I'm pretty, a hundred percent, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be in Oklahoma City,' Harden said during the interview. "I'll let my agent and Mr. Presti and [Thunder owner Clay] Bennett discuss all that, so I'll let them handle that and stay out of it for right now and worry about the USA Olympics."

Harden is one of four Thunder players currently playing in the Olympics in London and is averaging 6.4 points per game for undefeated Team USA.

He is the reigning NBA Sixth Man of the Year.

That's all PR talk.

Harden is trying to convince the OKC FO to pick him over Ibaka and Sefolosha.

I believe that as much as I believed LeBron when he said that he will forever play in Cleveland and bring them a title.

 

[sunsfan88]

Now that Howard is in the same conference as OKC, this almost definitely means that OKC won't amnesty Perkins and will choose between Ibaka and Harden.

 

[SweetD]

Now that Howard is in the same conference as OKC, this almost definitely means that OKC won't amnesty Perkins and will choose between Ibaka and Harden.

I could see Perkins getting traded next or in his final year. They will keep Ibaka and use Harden for S&T for a young C or picks. Heck you might even see the Lakers trade Gasol for Perkins and Harden next year.

 

[Griffin]

Ibaka signs a 4-year/$48M extension. At $12M/year, that's not quite the max but well in the territory of what was expected. So now, going into 2013/14 when the new LT rules kick in, the Thunder will have $54M committed to four players, not counting any other players with guaranteed money. If they max out Harden, they will have $68M committed to five players and roughly $72M the following season. The LT threshold is likely to be $75M.

 

[Mainstreet]

It is going to be hard to get star-like players in free agency unless a team does a sign and trade for them. I don't think Harden is unhappy in OKC, so they can always sign and trade him or another player if the LT becomes a problem. Ibaka would likely be an easy trade.