James Harden Traded to Houston

Chaplin

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Kinda disappointed in this trade. Harden would have been a nice addition, just not sure we can find a SG through the draft or Free Agency next year. But this does mean we might loose more games this year to Houston.

Hmm, not so sure. Houston got a building block, definitely, but will this trade allow them to get more wins in 12-13? Looking at it from a neutral perspective, I doubt it. As far as this year goes, the thing that is the most relevant is the health of Kevin Martin. If he remains healthy, it was a pretty even trade across the board THIS YEAR. I don't see much difference in Houston, other than them also wanting a high draft pick next summer, Harden or no.
 

slinslin

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The next 2 #1 picks will be shooting guards unless Shabazz doesn't go #1 for whatever reason.

Andrew Wiggins is likely the best prospect to come out since Lebron. He is a Tracy McGrady type talent and could have challenged Anthony Davis as the #1 pick this year despite being just 17.
Then in the 2014 draft you have four more lottery shooting guard prospects in the Harrison twins, Young and Croatian Mario Henzonja.

The 2014 draft will be an incredible draft class. The highschool class with Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Julius Randle etc is going to be one of the best in recent memory.

2013 is a center draft (for reference nbadraft.net has 7 in the top 20), 2014 looks bright for shooting guards(7 in top 20).
 
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SweetD

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The next 2 #1 picks will be shooting guards unless Shabazz doesn't go #1 for whatever reason.

Andrew Wiggins is likely the best prospect to come out since Lebron. He is a Tracy McGrady type talent and could have challenged Anthony Davis as the #1 pick this year despite being just 17.
Then in the 2014 draft you have four more lottery shooting guard prospects in the Harrison twins, Young and Croatian Mario Henzonja.

The 2014 draft will be an incredible draft class. The highschool class with Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Julius Randle etc is going to be one of the best in recent memory.

2013 is a center draft, 2014 looks bright for guards/small forwards.

Shabazz will be top 10 just don't think he will to top 3. I still see the us looking for PF. The SG class just looks bad next year.
 

Russ Smith

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When Ibaka was on the floor the Thunder gave up 4 more points per 100 pos.
When Hibbert was on the floor the Pacers gave up 4 less points per 100 pos.

Hibbert is a legit 7'2 center, ibaka is a 6'9 PF a position that is the deepest in the league along with PG.

Hibbert had a Drtg of 100.0.
Ibaka had a Drtg of 108.73

a lower Drtg is better

Do you know which was the best defensive unit last year? Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Collison, Perkins! Hibbert anchored the 13th best.

New York (Chandler) isnt even found in the top 50. Ibaka first appears around # 30 behind 3 other OKC lineups.

http://basketballvalue.com/topunits.php?year=2012 playoffs&sortnumber=9&sortorder=ASC


Ibaka's rating was 98 if you look at Pro Basketball Reference.com, Roy Hibbert 101. Lower rating is better. Playoffs Hibbert had a 95 to Ibaka's 105.

Note Hibbert's rating was better because he was so good against Orlando, against Miami he had only 2 games where his D rating was under 100. Ibaka had all of his games against Miami at 100 or higher he just doesn't match up well with Miami because they not only don't play a real C, they don't play a postup 4 either.

But during the regular season Ibaka had the better defensive rating.

And yes I know he's listed as 4, but on the open market he's going to be compared to other teams 5's because he'd be a 5 on many teams that don't have Perkins.
 

slinslin

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I think something major must happen for Shabazz not to go top 5.

I think the only ones being able to challenge his draft spot are Cody Zeller, Nerlens Noel and Dario Saric. MAYBE Steven Adams too but Pittsburgh is not known to play freshman and I am not sure that 3 centers will be picked before Shabazz. Someone will have a need for a SG, the position is so weak in the NBA and Shabazz draws comparisons to Dwayne Wade.

I don't think the 2013 draft will be as weak as people right now say it will be (which they almost always say about the next draft ...).

SG Shabazz, F/C Zeller, PF McAdoo, F/C Noel, F Poythress, C Adams, F Saric, C Gobert, SG Goodwin, SF Nash, PG Kabongo, C Austin.. I think there are a lot of very interesting prospects plus some that are not yet on the radar.
 
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Russ Smith

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The next 2 #1 picks will be shooting guards unless Shabazz doesn't go #1 for whatever reason.

Andrew Wiggins is likely the best prospect to come out since Lebron. He is a Tracy McGrady type talent and could have challenged Anthony Davis as the #1 pick this year despite being just 17.
Then in the 2014 draft you have four more lottery shooting guard prospects in the Harrison twins, Young and Croatian Mario Henzonja.

The 2014 draft will be an incredible draft class. The highschool class with Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Julius Randle etc is going to be one of the best in recent memory.

2013 is a center draft (for reference nbadraft.net has 7 in the top 20), 2014 looks bright for shooting guards(7 in top 20).


Bazz is a 3, he might move to the 2 but it's not his natural position. He's not laterally quick and he's not a great shooter. In the time he's been healthy enough to practice at UCLA everyone has raved about him but the general consensus is he's a great offensive rebounder, and nobody can guard him in the paint. he's a very strong kid for his age.

I think he'll eventually be a 2 but he's not one now.

Not loving Randle he's very talented but like so many bigs, wants to be a faceup guy. Haven't seen enough of Parker to know.
 

Russ Smith

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I think something major must happen for Shabazz not to go top 5.

I think the only ones being able to challenge his draft spot are Cody Zeller, Nerlens Noel and Dario Saric. MAYBE Steven Adams too but Pittsburgh is not known to play freshman and I am not sure that 3 centers will be picked before Shabazz. Someone will have a need for a SG, the position is so weak in the NBA and Shabazz draws comparisons to Dwayne Wade.

I don't think the 2013 draft will be as weak as people right now say it will be (which they almost always say about the next draft ...).

SG Shabazz, F/C Zeller, PF McAdoo, F/C Noel, F Poythress, C Adams, F Saric, C Gobert, SG Goodwin, SF Nash, PG Kabongo, C Austin.. I think there are a lot of very interesting prospects plus some that are not yet on the radar.

Bazz is nothing like Wade nowhere near that level of lateral quickness or ball handling.

Adams is going to likely start at Pitt from jumpstreet, he's really good and they bent over backwards to get him in academically, they don't expect him to stay.

Agreed with you on Wiggins he's on another level from all these kids. Don't like Kabongo at all can't shoot.
 

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I think Kabongo has a little bit of Rondo in him, can't shoot either.

Bazz is not the ball-handler Wade is but do you remember Wade coming out of highschool? I think Shabazz is similiar because they are both crafty, agressive defenders, get on the boards, attack the rim. Shabazz is probably slower but still an explosive leaper and a bit bigger than Wade.

I think Wiggins is incredibly similar to TMac. Parker is most often compared to Melo/Pierce. There are a few who like Parker better than Wiggins but imo it is not even close. Parker is an average athlete.
I think Wiggins could start in the NBA right now for some teams (Suns for example), he already dominated in the World vs USA game when he played against Shabazz and other older guys.


The kind of athleticism and fluidity this kid shows is amazing imo, you just know that kind of stuff translates to the pros. Has a chance to surpass Steve Nash as the Canadian basketball GOAT.
 
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Russ Smith

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I think Kabongo has a little bit of Rondo in him, can't shoot either.

Bazz is not the ball-handler Wade is but do you remember Wade coming out of highschool? I think Shabazz is similiar because they are both crafty, agressive defenders, get on the boards, attack the rim. Shabazz is probably slower but still an explosive leaper and a bit bigger than Wade.

I think Wiggins is incredibly similar to TMac. Parker is most often compared to Melo/Pierce. There are a few who like Parker better than Wiggins but imo it is not even close. Parker is an average athlete.
I think Wiggins could start in the NBA right now for some teams (Suns for example), he already dominated in the World vs USA game when he played against Shabazz and other older guys.


The kind of athleticism and fluidity this kid shows is amazing imo, you just know that kind of stuff translates to the pros. Has a chance to surpass Steve Nash as the Canadian basketball GOAT.


I don't think anybody remembers Wade out of HS because he didn't qualify.

First time I saw Wade at Marquette it was clear he was a guard though not a 3. Bazz is getting better but he's learning to play 2 because he thinks he needs to at his size. Very physically developed kid for his age. I personally am not optimistic he plays at all at UCLA. It's quite clear the NCAA thinks they have something on him. He's really good but I don't think his game necessarily easily translates to the NBA. If he doesn't play at UCLA I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him sign a contract somewhere just to play the season.


Wiggins is a much better shooter than T Mac at the same age though. TMac was a great athlete but he didn't shoot even close to Wiggins at this age.
 

SweetD

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The only issue I see happening with Wiggins is he may hit a growth spurt and will start having to play out of position. Unless he can shoot lights out like Durrant.
 

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and how much did Johnson win and how much did Ginobili win?

That's my point, if you want to make the most money possible do what harden did, if you want to win, don't.

How much did the Suns win? How much will the Thunder win?
 

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At the time Westbrook did it most people felt he would have made the All NBA team, lock, of course not no such thing, but it's not like OKC was going to not give him the max deal if he waited and didn't qualify for the Super Max. He chose to take the max deal instead for a reason.

So you don't think Ibaka could have made the same money Hibbert did if he waited and hit the open market? Hibbert's a better scorer, Ibaka a better rebounder and shot blocker and defender. Ibaka knew all that and still signed the deal he did.

Collison yeah he benefitted up front but he intentionally structured his deal to free up more money later in the contract when they're going to need it. He was smart he realized he's in a great situation and yes he took advantage of them having 6,5 million they could give him right away, but that didn't hurt the team in anyway.

THey had 2 guys to deal with this offseason, both of them were offered less than the max, one took it, one didn't and got traded.

You keep implying that Westbrook was offered more than what he signed for which simply isn't true. Westbrook signed for the absolute max he could have at the time and there is no indication that the Thunder were ever going to include the Rose provision in his contract. The Thunder could have easily told him they would let him become a RFA and match a deal that would be worth 20million less than what they were offering if he didn't sign(no way he signs a QO). Also if Westbrook is so selfless and waiving the player option is such a huge sign of commitment to the team how come he didn't waive his player option.

I don't think it's at all a sure thing that Ibaka gets as much as Hibbert, the possibility is there as is the possibility for injury or lack of development in his game. He could have gambled and potentially received a max offer but he wasn't anywhere near being in the same boat as Harden who would have had teams lining up to pay him the max.

If Harden signs for 20million more in guaranteed money than what he was asking from the Thunder as is expected will you not concede that he was willing to make concessions based on their situation?
 

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and how much did Johnson win and how much did Ginobili win?

Ginobili didn't give the Spurs a discount when coming off his rookie contract though. Manu was offered a contract from the Nuggets and decided to stay with the Spurs when they matched it. The market determined his value, everybody already knew what the market is for Harden and the extra 4.5mil was too much for the Thunder.

And as has been pointed out, how much did the Spurs win compared to the Suns?
 

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Leave me alone. Im a football guy.




Cmooon. Dont compare Harden with Lebron James, you kidden. Jeez laweez. I dont like him, but the weight of the collective basketball Universe was on Lebron to not only win, but carry all of his teams to a ring.

Harden came off the bench.

I'm not comparing Harden to James, I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to base a guys entire career off a single playoff series. You sound just like the blowhards that were blasting James up until this past finals or Dirk up until the prior one.

Harden was good to great throughout the earlier rounds and a single bad round doesn't define him.
 

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The only issue I see happening with Wiggins is he may hit a growth spurt and will start having to play out of position. Unless he can shoot lights out like Durrant.

What an odd concern. Wiggins has elite athletic ability to stay on the wing even if he grows a couple of inches. I'd be more concerned with him improving his handling and assertiveness on the courts, even those are minor concerns since I think once he matures he'll be a megastar.
 

Phrazbit

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Well, that Laker bench we talked about earlier in this thread sure didnt take long to show off how terrible it is.
 

Russ Smith

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You keep implying that Westbrook was offered more than what he signed for which simply isn't true. Westbrook signed for the absolute max he could have at the time and there is no indication that the Thunder were ever going to include the Rose provision in his contract. The Thunder could have easily told him they would let him become a RFA and match a deal that would be worth 20million less than what they were offering if he didn't sign(no way he signs a QO). Also if Westbrook is so selfless and waiving the player option is such a huge sign of commitment to the team how come he didn't waive his player option.

I don't think it's at all a sure thing that Ibaka gets as much as Hibbert, the possibility is there as is the possibility for injury or lack of development in his game. He could have gambled and potentially received a max offer but he wasn't anywhere near being in the same boat as Harden who would have had teams lining up to pay him the max.

If Harden signs for 20million more in guaranteed money than what he was asking from the Thunder as is expected will you not concede that he was willing to make concessions based on their situation?

Westbrook would have gotten the Rose deal. You don't have to believe me but again that came from someone who works with Westbrook's dad. He knew that deal was going to be on the table if he qualified for it, but he chose to take the max deal.

Here's a breakdown pretty well done that shows the impact to OKC's cap just for signing Harden at 53 million.
http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2012/10/31/oklahoma-city-thunder-what-if-james-harden-had-signed/


Note, by the 2nd year of his new deal they'd be over 20 million a year in luxury tax. Note the impact year over year as more and more money tied up into less and less players. And that's at 53, not at the max that Harden was insisting on. If he gets that they're over 30 million in luxury tax very quickly.

If you're one of the top X players in the league you are probably going to get a max deal, Durant and Westbrook certainly didn't play hardball one waived the option, the other gave up the chance to get an extra 3 million a year.

Bill Simmons wrote a piece where he talks about Harden sacrificing shots and minutes to make things work and how they then wanted him to sacrifice money too. Again, he was helping the team win games, that's supposed to be the goal not how many shots you get up or minutes played. But when it came time to do that again, he chose the money and being the man.

Not saying that makes him evil, but that's what he did, he chose to pursue more money and being the main guy over being on a team that would be contending for the finals for the next several years.

We'll see how it works out for OKC, it's not clear the Lakers are actually going to be great, maybe OKC gets it to work, maybe they don't. But if they start forking over 30 million a year in luxury tax because Harden wanted 4-5 million more total, that's not how you run an NBA franchise.

Last year before the season started it was reported that under the new deal, the Lakers payroll would be 90 million when it kicks in, and it would cost them 140 million because of the CBA and the luxury tax. If you look at OKC's roster and play out the math as in that link, they would get getting close to that themselves towards the end of Harden's deal.
 

Russ Smith

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Ginobili didn't give the Spurs a discount when coming off his rookie contract though. Manu was offered a contract from the Nuggets and decided to stay with the Spurs when they matched it. The market determined his value, everybody already knew what the market is for Harden and the extra 4.5mil was too much for the Thunder.

And as has been pointed out, how much did the Spurs win compared to the Suns?

There's no guarantee the Suns were going to win anything anyways. That style hasn't won anything, fun to watch, they were quite good there at one time, but they weren't exactly in the same situation OKC is where they had 3 guys good enough to make an olympic roster all 24 or younger.

The Suns problems have been detailed to death on this board dealing picks year after year, selling players etc. They didn't just make one decision to hold in costs on Johnson, they did it year after year time and time again. OKC
has now done it twice, Jeff Green, and Harden. When they did it with Green I saw the reaction then(not here) that they were idiots for not paying him what he wanted. They were right then.

Maybe they won't be right on Harden but unless you can say with a straight face he has as good a chance of winning a Title in Houston as he did staying in OKC, then it's completely accurate to say he chose the money over winning.
 

slinslin

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While I don't really think that Harden is worth the max I am starting to think the Suns should have went all in to get him as long as it would not cost them long term cap flexibility or lottery picks. Anyone on our roster should have been available for Harden as currently I am not sure we have even 1 player on the entire roster to build around anyway. Harden would have been a start. Harden and Beasley plus minimum players and our future picks would have made our future look more promising than the collection of role players we have now.

Even Perkins contract figures to expire by the time the Suns have accumulated young talent ready to contend again.

Tank the next season retool 2 years throug the draft to get cheap young talent and then spend the caproom afterwards to acquire role players to surround Dragic, Harden, Beasley and the draftpicks sounds like a better plan than what we have right now which nobody knows.
 
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AzStevenCal

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Well, that Laker bench we talked about earlier in this thread sure didnt take long to show off how terrible it is.

Did you even watch the game? The bench was far from being the problem. This team looked out of sync as they were clearly playing a style they were unfamiliar with and appear to be ill-suited for. That and the fact they went 12 for 31 from the free throw line were far bigger issues than their depth. I don't think they have great bench talent either but I do think it's sufficient to the task if Brown can get out of the way of his starters.

Steve
 

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While I don't really think that Harden is worth the max I am starting to think the Suns should have went all in to get him as long as it would not cost them long term cap flexibility or lottery picks. Anyone on our roster should have been available for Harden as currently I am not sure we have even 1 player on the entire roster to build around anyway. Harden would have been a start. Harden and Beasley plus minimum players and our future picks would have made our future look more promising than the collection of role players we have now.

Even Perkins contract figures to expire by the time the Suns have accumulated young talent ready to contend again.

Tank the next season retool 2 years throug the draft to get cheap young talent and then spend the caproom afterwards to acquire role players to surround Dragic, Harden, Beasley and the draftpicks sounds like a better plan than what we have right now which nobody knows.


Yep. We need stars, and until we get them, we'll be irrelevant. Is Harden the next Lebron? Of course not, but there are very few obvious max players. James can create his own shot, and distribute, which is at a premium especially considering how weak the 2 guard position is.

I'm so glad we've kept our flexibility, and choose to focus on guys like Eric Gordon instead of James. :sarcasm:
 

AzStevenCal

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Yep. We need stars, and until we get them, we'll be irrelevant. Is Harden the next Lebron? Of course not, but there are very few obvious max players. James can create his own shot, and distribute, which is at a premium especially considering how weak the 2 guard position is.

I'm so glad we've kept our flexibility, and choose to focus on guys like Eric Gordon instead of James. :sarcasm:

I wouldn't mind adding Harden and giving him the max but we had no shot at this without crippling our future. Harden might be a max or near max player but do you really want to watch this team if we had to part with 3 or 4 limited protection first round picks in order to make it happen? We didn't have a Martin or a Lamb to include so we would have had to make up for it by giving away picks.

Steve
 

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No lotto picks but as far as I am concerned they could have had any combination of players on our current roster for Harden which I think could have netted a better value trade for OKC than what they got from Houston.

Gortat, Dudley, Dragic for any combination of players surrounding Harden? Done. Gortat, Dudley, Morris, Dragic? Done.

Harden, Beasley and 10 D-League players plus our future picks would be a better future for us than what we have right now imo... unless we start turning our "win now veterans" like Gortat, Dudley, Brown, Scola, Frye into assets with long term future soon.

Unfortunately that is unlikely for

Telfair - we probably just let him expire, doubt anyone would give up anything for him save maybe a 2nd rounder anyway
Frye - teams won't take a risk and we will probably just apply for a medical exemption to get additional capspace
Brown - only partially guaranteed next season so we might just wait and waive him unless he has a stellar year, doubt he has any value anyway
Wes Johnson - will just let him expire or try to keep him if he explodes, doubt he has any value anyway
Scola - can't be traded for a year
Tucker, Zeller, Garrett - no value at all

that leaves Dudley, Gortat as the only really tradeable assets for the Suns because lets just assume they are not willing to trade Dragic, Beasley, Morris, Marshall right now and not stupid enough to waste their future picks again.

I am not a believer that Dragic can be more than a top 10-15 PG in the league.

If they could have gotten Harden for any combination involving no lottery picks or Beasley I would personally enjoy the season more I think. I would turn into games with the mindset "what will Harden and Beasley do this game. Is Harden going for 30/7/7 or Beasley going for 40/10?". Right now I am kind of indifferent about watching the games, Beasley is intriguing but the rest of the roster just does not excite me AT ALL.

Losing Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire who both had the appeal to watch Suns games just because of them and never replacing them with a player I personally could get excited about really really hurt my interest in the team. We need a real young star fast somehow someway.. preferably one who does not have a history with another team. Someone who makes a name for himself as a SUN.
 
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AzStevenCal

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No lotto picks but as far as I am concerned they could have had any combination of players on our current roster for Harden which I think could have netted a better value trade for OKC than what they got from Houston.

Gortat, Dudley, Dragic for any combination of players surrounding Harden? Done. Gortat, Dudley, Morris, Dragic? Done.

Harden, Beasley and 10 D-League players plus our future picks would be a better future for us than what we have right now imo... unless we start turning our "win now veterans" like Gortat, Dudley, Brown, Scola, Frye into assets with long term future soon.

Unfortunately that is unlikely for

Telfair - we probably just let him expire, doubt anyone would give up anything for him save maybe a 2nd rounder anyway
Frye - teams won't take a risk and we will probably just apply for a medical exemption to get additional capspace
Brown - only partially guaranteed next season so we might just wait and waive him unless he has a stellar year, doubt he has any value anyway
Wes Johnson - will just let him expire or try to keep him if he explodes, doubt he has any value anyway
Scola - can't be traded for a year
Tucker, Zeller, Garrett - no value at all

that leaves Dudley, Gortat as the only really tradeable assets for the Suns because lets just assume they are not willing to trade Dragic, Beasley, Morris, Marshall right now and not stupid enough to waste their future picks again.

I am not a believer that Dragic can be more than a top 10-15 PG in the league.

If they could have gotten Harden for any combination involving no lottery picks or Beasley I would personally enjoy the season more I think. I would turn into games with the mindset "what will Harden and Beasley do this game. Is Harden going for 30/7/7 or Beasley going for 40/10?". Right now I am kind of indifferent about watching the games, Beasley is intriguing but the rest of the roster just does not excite me AT ALL.

I'm so glad you're not on staff with the Suns. Your reasoning makes no sense. If our guys are so horrible why in the world do you think OKC would prefer them over the players and picks they got from Houston.

And, I can't even imagine the nightmare of watching Beasley, Harden and 10 D leaguers. This franchise is in trouble but what you advocate would insure that we stay in trouble for the foreseeable future.

Steve
 

ASUCHRIS

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I'm so glad you're not on staff with the Suns. Your reasoning makes no sense. If our guys are so horrible why in the world do you think OKC would prefer them over the players and picks they got from Houston.

And, I can't even imagine the nightmare of watching Beasley, Harden and 10 D leaguers. This franchise is in trouble but what you advocate would insure that we stay in trouble for the foreseeable future.

Steve

I don't know, I kind of agree with Slin. (much to my chagrin)

Gortat, Dudley, and a couple of lottery protected picks is a pretty good haul, Dud is at worst equal to Martin (and I'd argue better) and Gortat would be a valuable piece for them.

Everyone else on our team is expendable in my eyes, and we can at least have a couple pieces to build around. Right now we have nothing to build around.

Dragic/Harden/Beasley are at least players you can get excited about.
 

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