Josh Jackson

[Mainstreet]

Early in the season when the Suns were actually trying they were 11-0 when he scored 25 or more. Pretty significant when you consider how few wins they have. IMO he would be a good 6th or 7th man on a good team. Definitely a quality player but prolly not a starter on any good team.

He’s a role player. Hard to identify a specific role on such a bad team.

I think you have identified Warren's role. Maybe Warren 6th or 7th guy off the bench next season for the Suns.

 

[BC867]

That list is also a testimonial to how great the Suns have historically been at scouting and drafting players. Lots of great draft picks on that list, and doesn't even include guys like Nance, Hornacek, Majerle, Nash, Wes Person, Marion... and in recent years, Warren... all top notch Suns draftees, very few of which were even picked all that high.

But notice that everyone of the players you named were Wings. Hence, the Suns reputation as a soft team.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But notice that everyone of the players you named were Wings. Hence, the Suns reputation as a soft team.

Larry nance was a pf

 

[BC867]

Larry nance was a pf

'Sorry, but not so. When Larry entered the league, he was the first of the 6'10" Small Forwards (the most rad thing the Suns have ever done).

He played Small Forward for years, moving Walter Davis from SF to 2-Guard.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

'Sorry, but not so. When Larry entered the league, he was the first of the 6'10" Small Forwards (the most rad thing the Suns have ever done).

He played Small Forward for years, moving Walter Davis from SF to 2-Guard.

He played pf for the cavs

 

[BC867]

He played pf for the cavs

Yes, after having played his first 6 1/2 years with the Suns as a Small Forward. My post was in response to players Suns have drafted.

 

[Hoop Head]

But notice that everyone of the players you named were Wings. Hence, the Suns reputation as a soft team.

Being a wing doesn't make someone soft. I wouldn't call Josh Jackson soft and he's a wing player. I think the Suns were always more of a finesse team, not necessarily soft. They were style over substance.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Being a wing doesn't make someone soft. I wouldn't call Josh Jackson soft and he's a wing player. I think the Suns were always more of a finesse team, not necessarily soft. They were style over substance.

I’d agree with all of this excepr the “style over substance.” That style beat the majority of teams the majority of the time. They just never had quite enough talent at the most opportune time to win it all. But their overall record prior to these last few lost seasons surely indicates that they had substance for sure.

 

[Hoop Head]

I’d agree with all of this excepr the “style over substance.” That style beat the majority of teams the majority of the time. They just never had quite enough talent at the most opportune time to win it all. But their overall record prior to these last few lost seasons surely indicates that they had substance for sure.

I can see that but up until recently with the Warriors winning titles, everyone agreed that defense wins titles and you won't have much success in the postseason by being a run and gun offense oriented team. Teams need to be able to play slowed down grind it out halfcourt basketball to win in the playoffs. The Suns have always had flashy offenses but never had much postseason success. I know they had the 3rd or 4th highest winning percentage prior to this year but for a team to win that much and only make 2 NBA finals appearances says that they haven't had much postseason success.

 

[BC867]

Being a wing doesn't make someone soft. I wouldn't call Josh Jackson soft and he's a wing player. I think the Suns were always more of a finesse team, not necessarily soft. They were style over substance.

That was my point. Saying the Suns were successful in drafting -- with all the players named covering one position -- is not being successful in drafting.

Of course I agree with you about the Suns always being a finesse team. Unfortunately, that approach is not the formula for winning down the stretch and thought the playoffs, when the refs lose their whistles. It is what it is.

 

[BC867]

They just never had quite enough talent at the most opportune time to win it all.

And that, Ouchie, falls on the General Manager. Which is why I say that Jerry Colangelo, despite all the good things he was for the Valley of the Sun, was a marginal General Manager. Not in the upper echelon.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Being a wing doesn't make someone soft. I wouldn't call Josh Jackson soft and he's a wing player. I think the Suns were always more of a finesse team, not necessarily soft. They were style over substance.

Gar Heard, Mo Lucas, Truck Robinson, Charles Barkley, Amare Soudemire, Antonio McDyess. Finesse players?

They were always trying to draft bigs, but you can’t get quality bigs with late picks—especially in that era.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can see that but up until recently with the Warriors winning titles, everyone agreed that defense wins titles and you won't have much success in the postseason by being a run and gun offense oriented team. Teams need to be able to play slow downed grind it out halfcourt basketball to win in the playoffs. The Suns have always had flashy offenses but never had much postseason success. I know they had the 3rd or 4th highest winning percentage prior to this year but for a team to win that much and only make 2 NBA finals appearances says that they haven't had much postseason success.

What percentage of finals had the lakers and spurs representing the WC? That had a lot to do with that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But notice that everyone of the players you named were Wings. Hence, the Suns reputation as a soft team.

Bet you we’re jumping up and down though when they drafted Joel Barry Carol and Armon Gilliam. Both of them big men... both of them reached for size. Both of them BUSTS that you prob loved simply because they were big.

Prob loved the Hot Rod deal too. Tell me I’m wrong then tell me how all of those were good moves.

 

[Phrazbit]

Dominant bigs the Bulls drafted during their dynasty... 0

Dominant bigs the Lakers drafted during their 2000s run... 0

Dominant bigs that LeBron has played with... 0

Dominant bigs that the Warriors drafted... Green I guess, who they got in the 2nd round, and I'm guessing if he was a Sun and we were not winning a title with him BC would lament his lack of height.

Reaching for bigs is how crappy teams stay crappy. I don't think teams ever get burned more often than when they're drafting big for "need".

Anthony Davis is widely considered the league's best big man, he has never played a playoff game, he got paired with another dominant big in Cousins and the Pelicans only really hit their stride when Cousins went down with an injury.

Of the top 10 teams in the NBA there were a combined THREE All-Stars that play the PF or Center positions (Aldridge, Horford and Green), those same 10 elite teams featured TWELVE guards and wing players.

The top contenders have virtually all the best guards and wings, meanwhile having the best center doesn't even guarantee you a playoff birth.

I'm not saying I'd pass on Ayton, I think he is a stud, but it is a guard and wing dominated league.

 

[Hoop Head]

Dominant bigs the Bulls drafted during their dynasty... 0

Dominant bigs the Lakers drafted during their 2000s run... 0

Dominant bigs that LeBron has played with... 0

Dominant bigs that the Warriors drafted... Green I guess, who they got in the 2nd round, and I'm guessing if he was a Sun and we were not winning a title with him BC would lament his lack of height.

Reaching for bigs is how crappy teams stay crappy. I don't think teams ever get burned more often than when they're drafting big for "need".

Anthony Davis is widely considered the league's best big man, he has never played a playoff game, he got paired with another dominant big in Cousins and the Pelicans only really hit their stride when Cousins went down with an injury.

Of the top 10 teams in the NBA there were a combined THREE All-Stars that play the PF or Center positions (Aldridge, Horford and Green), those same 10 elite teams featured TWELVE guards and wing players.

The top contenders have virtually all the best guards and wings, meanwhile having the best center doesn't even guarantee you a playoff birth.

I'm not saying I'd pass on Ayton, I think he is a stud, but it is a guard and wing dominated league.

Lebron has Kevin Love now and had Chris Bosh in Miami, both All-Star bigs.

Anthony Davis led the Pelicans to the playoffs in the 2014-15 season where they were swept by the Warriors en route to their first title with their current roster, minus Durant at that time.

Minnesota has Karl-Anthony Towns also, who is a dominant Center. He's also an All-Star and with Minnesota being 3rd in the West I'm not sure how you left him off of your list of top 10 contending teams with bigs.

 

[Phrazbit]

Lebron has Kevin Love now and had Chris Bosh in Miami, both All-Star bigs.

Anthony Davis led the Pelicans to the playoffs in the 2014-15 season where they were swept by the Warriors en route to their first title with their current roster, minus Durant at that time.

Minnesota has Karl-Anthony Towns also, who is a dominant Center. He's also an All-Star and with Minnesota being 3rd in the West I'm not sure how you left him off of your list of top 10 contending teams with bigs.

Love is hardly dominant, neither was Bosh.

I left Towns off because the Wolves are currently 6th in the West, yeah, they're in a big tie but they lose the tiebreakers. Also, the loss column has them tied with the 9th place team in the west and only 2 ahead of 10th. With Butler out I wouldn't be surprised if they miss the playoffs entirely.

Fair enough on Davis, forgot that he was privy to getting bulldozed by the Warriors.

However, between Davis, Towns, Drummond, Embiid and Cousins you're looking at, arguably, the best 5 big men in the league... and a combined 0 playoff victories. That will likely change this year, but seeing as all their teams are either in desperate fights to even make the playoffs or looking at brutal matchups in the 1st round, it is no guarantee.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Dominant bigs the Bulls drafted during their dynasty... 0

Dominant bigs the Lakers drafted during their 2000s run... 0

Dominant bigs that LeBron has played with... 0

Dominant bigs that the Warriors drafted... Green I guess, who they got in the 2nd round, and I'm guessing if he was a Sun and we were not winning a title with him BC would lament his lack of height.

Reaching for bigs is how crappy teams stay crappy. I don't think teams ever get burned more often than when they're drafting big for "need".

Anthony Davis is widely considered the league's best big man, he has never played a playoff game, he got paired with another dominant big in Cousins and the Pelicans only really hit their stride when Cousins went down with an injury.

Of the top 10 teams in the NBA there were a combined THREE All-Stars that play the PF or Center positions (Aldridge, Horford and Green), those same 10 elite teams featured TWELVE guards and wing players.

The top contenders have virtually all the best guards and wings, meanwhile having the best center doesn't even guarantee you a playoff birth.

I'm not saying I'd pass on Ayton, I think he is a stud, but it is a guard and wing dominated league.

Bosh was an effective mobile pf, but not a dominant big in the sense that BC is talking about.

The last dominant big to win a championship was what? Pau? But he was a mobile shooting pf/c. I guess it’s Shaq.

 

[Phrazbit]

Bosh was an effective mobile pf, but not a dominant big in the sense that BC is talking about.

The last dominant big to win a championship was what? Pau? But he was a mobile shooting pf/c. I guess it’s Shaq.

If you're only counting the kind of bigs BC considers legit, then it is probably Duncan, but the 2007 Duncan, not the 2014 version. If you're a little more liberal in what you consider a "dominant big" though, it is probably Dirk in 2011.

 

[Raindog]

Yeah, was just about to post that everyone seems to be forgetting about Duncan. For most of his career, he was essentially a traditional 5, no matter if the Spurs played him at the 4. Oh, and don't forget that David Robinson was still around for the Spurs first two championships.

Undoubtedly the prevailing style has changed in recent years and traditional bigs have been de-emphasized. But that could have more to do with a generational swing resulting from the lack of quality big man being produced for the better part of two decades rather than any evolution in the game. And that trend could well swing back in the other direction if more skilled post players start emerging from the high school and college ranks. There is nothing inherently better about emphasizing wing play over quality traditional inside play, assuming there are skilled enough post players to implement it.

 

[Raze]

If you're only counting the kind of bigs BC considers legit, then it is probably Duncan, but the 2007 Duncan, not the 2014 version. If you're a little more liberal in what you consider a "dominant big" though, it is probably Dirk in 2011.

The 2007 Duncan had a heck of a supporting cast though in Parker, Ginobli, Stern, and Bowen. It's nearly impossible to beat that team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Yeah, was just about to post that everyone seems to be forgetting about Duncan. For most of his career, he was essentially a traditional 5, no matter if the Spurs played him at the 4. Oh, and don't forget that David Robinson was still around for the Spurs first two championships.

Undoubtedly the prevailing style has changed in recent years and traditional bigs have been de-emphasized. But that could have more to do with a generational swing resulting from the lack of quality big man being produced for the better part of two decades rather than any evolution in the game. And that trend could well swing back in the other direction if more skilled post players start emerging from the high school and college ranks. There is nothing inherently better about emphasizing wing play over quality traditional inside play, assuming there are skilled enough post players to implement it.

Yes. Of course. Forgot about him.

 

[Hoop Head]

Does Jackson make either All-Rookie teams this year? He started rough but if he had played like he has the last 2 months all year I think he'd be in the Rookie of the Year conversation. Starting slow hurts him this year when there have been a lot of quality rookies around the league. The only shoo-ins are Ben Simmons and Donovan Mitchell. Jayson Tatum, Lauri Markkanen, Kyle Kuzma, Dennis Smith Jr, and Lonzo Ball will make one of the teams. I think Jackson has been better than Ball but the Laker bias within the media will ensure Lonzo makes one of the teams.

Curious if others think he'll make one of the teams and if anyone thinks he'll make the 1st team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Does Jackson make either All-Rookie teams this year? He started rough but if he had played like he has the last 2 months all year I think he'd be in the Rookie of the Year conversation. Starting slow hurts him this year when there have been a lot of quality rookies around the league. The only shoo-ins are Ben Simmons and Donovan Mitchell. Jayson Tatum, Lauri Markkanen, Kyle Kuzma, Dennis Smith Jr, and Lonzo Ball will make one of the teams. I think Jackson has been better than Ball but the Laker bias within the media will ensure Lonzo makes one of the teams.

Curious if others think he'll make one of the teams and if anyone thinks he'll make the 1st team.

He is number 5 in ESPN's rookie ladder and has been there regularly. I think he makes one of those teams.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He is number 5 in ESPN's rookie ladder and has been there regularly. I think he makes one of those teams.

he should but I wonder if our patheticness taints him in voters eyes.