Just Say No

[Joe Mama]

Damn! I think I grew a beard in the time it took me to read the latest additions to this thread.

George, Grant Hill, IMO, is a very good example. When he was injured Grant Hill was a superstar. He was a top-five player in the NBA. His last year in Detroit he averaged 26 points on 49% shooting, 6.6 rebounds, and 5.2 assists per game. Before that he had several seasons averaging 20 + points on 9 rebounds, and 6-7 assists per game. He was a superstar. He also had all of the big endorsements to go along with his superstardom.

If I had to guess I would say the Phoenix Suns chances of one of the Bryant are less than 25%, but what do I really know? What do any of us really know? I would say if the Phoenix Suns were willing to just giveaway a top-five draft pick, knowing they are going to catch A LOT of flak for it, the most have a very good feeling or some inside information about Kobe Bryant.

If/when the New York pick turns into a top 10 lottery pick that was given way to save money the Colangelos are going to get ripped by public opinion and many of the NBA media. Whether it is deserved or not it's going to happen. I refused to believe that they would be willing to make a move that will piss off the average Phoenix Suns fan even more unless they're quite sure it's going to pay off pretty quickly.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Can we reasonably assume that likelyhood that Kobe would come justify giving up a player and a draft pick IF we don't know what he is going to do. Eric want's to assume this problem away, but I think it is real.

Yep, you're ignoring me all right. I'm not assuming the problem away at all, and that should be abundantly clear to anyone who has been paying attention.

If you want to ignore me, that's fine, but don't "ignore" me by saying "Eric believes this and that and the other," and then hiding in the shadows. That's gutless.

Also, for anyone else who's paying attention, I think this is an important point:

For some reason I seem to be able to disagree with everyone else without being accused of insulting them.

We usually aren't that far apart on what our opinions are. I disagree with the way you make your argument. As a professional educator, I feel some responsibility to point out illogical or careless thinking. If you say -- this is an exaggeration -- "Kobe Bryant will not come to the Suns because the moon is made of green cheese," this makes me uncomfortable. Even if you know what you mean, someone else might think, upon reading your authoritative post, that either (a) the moon is made of green cheese, or (b) the moon's composition would be relevant to Bryant's decision.

I'm not trying to blow things out of proportion, but I think that misinformation and faulty logic are among the great problems in our society. One only needs to look at the mess in Iraq right now and be reminded of how we got there. You could easily say, "No one really cares about arguments on a sports fan board," and you would surely be right. But I care. It is my job to care.

I really don't care who is right or who wins an argument. I really don't. What I want is for the argument to demonstrate accurate thinking, appropriate evidence, and sound logic. When I sense that something you're saying doesn't do that, I want to correct it -- not to put you down, but to set the record straight from a reasoning standpoint. Then you blow me off and make the problem worse.

It is probably for the best for you to ignore me, and I will try much harder to stay out of your way. I just want the other regulars on the board to know where I'm coming from and why I care about this.

 

[SweetD]

bla bla bla bla were is the B-Ball talk guys put the egos at the door and have beer..

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

If I had to guess I would say the Phoenix Suns chances of one of the Bryant are less than 25%, but what do I really know? What do any of us really know? I would say if the Phoenix Suns were willing to just giveaway a top-five draft pick, knowing they are going to catch A LOT of flak for it, the most have a very good feeling or some inside information about Kobe Bryant.

Joe Mama

25% is still a better chance than all the other possible suitors, EXCEPT maybe the Clippers.

So on one hand we have people like me that want us to bring Kobe in and try like hell to sign him, regardless of what the "odds" as defined by Vegas, ASFN or my grandmother are. Then you have the other side of the coin, the people that don't even want to try, because, hey, he's not going to come anyway, so what's the point?

The problem is that there really is no middle ground. To me, my reasons for bringing Kobe in make all the sense in the world. To me, it's common sense (as I'm sure it is to Graham, and possibly even Eric as well). Others think it's not worth our time (George and quite a few others).

The question is, why not? When you have a player of Kobe's quality (regardless of what Charles Barkley says), and you have a legitimate chance of luring him to your city--AND a better than average chance over teams like Denver, Utah and Atlanta--why DON'T you try?

My whole motto has been to win a championship. Period. Why is that ignored? A lot of people just want to see this team grow. Fine, that's terrific, but the margin for improvement here outside of Amare Stoudemire is very small. This team as it stands will never compete with a championship. The only thing we'd be competing for is the first pick in the draft. And even though Clipper, Warrior and Bulls fans might be used to that, I'm not, and I don't want to be.

 

[scudney]

Originally posted by Chaplin
25% is still a better chance than all the other possible suitors, EXCEPT maybe the Clippers.

What? not according to your signature

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scudney
What? not according to your signature

Just because there's a better chance of him signing there, doesn't mean he will...

 

[Chaz]

Chaplin, I don't have a problem with the Suns pursuing Kobe, trial not with standing. I do have a problem with the idea that the Suns cannot win a championship without him or that the summer is a complete but or failure if they don't get him.

I also consider the trial a real factor. We would love these decision to be based solely on the basketball merits but that is not a realistic expectation. Basketball and the NBA does not exist in a vacuum and to me the trial is a serious impediment to signing Kobe at this point. Maybe it will be worked out before a decision has to be made but I am not counting on it.

Part of me thinks getting Kobe here is a little "pie in the sky" but then I thought that about getting Barkley also and was pleasently suprised.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirChaz
Chaplin, I don't have a problem with the Suns pursuing Kobe, trial not with standing. I do have a problem with the idea that the Suns cannot win a championship without him or that the summer is a complete but or failure if they don't get him.

That's not entirely accurate. I believe we will not win a championship WITH THIS SPECIFIC GROUP. Granted, perhaps if we don't sign Kobe and do sign Tmac next summer, then we'd still be in a better situation. But with Amare, Shawn Marion and JJ, this team will not win a championship. Even after a few years, this group will have time just competing for the Western Conference title.

There are a lot of things that can happen--but right now, Kobe Bryant is our best chance of getting much closer to that trophy. That's just a fact.

As for the trial, I agree, that it is an important issue, but I still believe that it'll never happen. I think that the case will be thrown out before it could go to trial.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I was going to re express my thoughts, but instead of just repeating Chap, go ahead and assume I wrote those long posts instead of him.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That's not entirely accurate. I believe we will not win a championship WITH THIS SPECIFIC GROUP. Granted, perhaps if we don't sign Kobe and do sign Tmac next summer, then we'd still be in a better situation. But with Amare, Shawn Marion and JJ, this team will not win a championship. Even after a few years, this group will have time just competing for the Western Conference title.

With this 12 players I agree but how realistic is it to think this team will stand pat? A top draft pick and some other free agent, and/or role players could be added in the next year or two and they could get very good very quickly.

I think Amare is a player to build a team around and Marion and JJ are both very solid players. Someone besides Amare will have to generate offense consistantly (granted Kobe would provide) but if they had that addition they could be right in the thick of it.

To win a championship should be the goal of any team and would be awesome obviously, but as a fan I just want to be entertained by Suns basketball.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by SirChaz

To win a championship should be the goal of any team and would be awesome obviously, but as a fan I just want to be entertained by Suns basketball.

I hear you. I would love to see the Phoenix Suns win a championship. I think that the goal of the team should be that championship. But I would be lying if I said that I would be unsatisfied with anything less. I would be pretty happy with a team that just has a legitimate shot a championship. We haven't had one of those Phoenix Suns teams here in Phoenix for quite a while.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That's not entirely accurate. I believe we will not win a championship WITH THIS SPECIFIC GROUP. Granted, perhaps if we don't sign Kobe and do sign Tmac next summer, then we'd still be in a better situation. But with Amare, Shawn Marion and JJ, this team will not win a championship. Even after a few years, this group will have time just competing for the Western Conference title.

There are a lot of things that can happen--but right now, Kobe Bryant is our best chance of getting much closer to that trophy. That's just a fact.

As for the trial, I agree, that it is an important issue, but I still believe that it'll never happen. I think that the case will be thrown out before it could go to trial.

You may be surprised to hear this, but I mostly agree. The Suns are not going to win unless they get more talent. They have some very good playes and in Amare a guy who has the potential of being a great player - but they need more.

I think 25% is optomistic, but let's assume it is accurate. Are you prepared to give up a player with an expiring contract (White) and a draft pick to get into game with at most a one in four chance of winning? Assuming you would take the bet, would you give up the lottery pick based on the 25% chance of succeeding?

Chad Ford of ESPN says "yes". Does he know something about Kobe's thoughts than we don't? Should the Suns make the deal without inside information?

BTW, the question of Grant Hill is an interesting one. I don't really follow the Eastern Conference that much and I knew he had a big rep due to being from Duke and put up some good numbers on a not terribly good Piston team. Did Hill turn down a max contract offer from Detroit to take less money in Orlando? This is not a retorical question, I honestly don't know. My memory of the deal was that he just followed the money, but I don't really know.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirChaz
With this 12 players I agree but how realistic is it to think this team will stand pat? A top draft pick and some other free agent, and/or role players could be added in the next year or two and they could get very good very quickly.

That's true, of course, but what are the chances we're going to get a player on the same level as Kobe Bryant? Over 36 years, how many times has that happened? Once? Twice, at the most? What makes you think it's going to happen again?

I think Amare is a player to build a team around and Marion and JJ are both very solid players. Someone besides Amare will have to generate offense consistantly (granted Kobe would provide) but if they had that addition they could be right in the thick of it.

I agree, Amare is definitely someone to build around, but a championship team has never been builty primarily around a power forward. (I know some may mention Duncan, but I think that is an extreme circumstance, and there can be a debate over whether Amare will ever be as good as Duncan)

To win a championship should be the goal of any team and would be awesome obviously, but as a fan I just want to be entertained by Suns basketball.

I want to be excited as well, but not at the expense of being competitive. First round and outs can only be exciting for so long. It's be 36 years, and I think the FIRST goal, and the most important goal, of ANY sports team should be to win a title.

What would you prefer...

A slow, boring team that wins the title?

Or

A running, exciting team that gets to the first round (or not at all) and exits?

Personally, I want the championship, and the best case is a combination of the two--an exciting running team that can compete for the championship. With Kobe Bryant and this current group, we could have that. WIthout him, we do not.

 

[elindholm]

Some questions have been asked about Grant Hill, and I will offer some information from NBA.com.

Hill shared Rookie of the Year honors with Jason Kidd in 1995. He averaged 20+ points per game in every year except his rookie season, as well as 6+ rebounds and 5+ assists in every year. His FG% was astonishingly high for a first-option wing player -- about 47% during his Detoit years, and below 46% for the season only once. He had missed only 4 games per season on average.

He was widely considered one of the game's best young stars. I don't remember why he left Detroit, but I am almost certain they offered him a max deal, which would have been slightly more than he wound up with in Orlando. It may have been true that he thought Orlando, with the addition of McGrady, had a better chance of competing for the title than the Pistons. (The Pistons got Ben Wallace as part of the sign-and-trade, so he wasn't a factor yet.)

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

If I remember correctly, Hill decided to leave detroit because he thoguht he could win a title with McGrady better than he could with Stackhouse.

Initially, Hill agreed to take less money to sign with the Magic. However, he apparently felt remorse for abondoning the Pistons (he is a good friend of Dumars) so he arranged a sign and trade.

Of course he got the max this way, but I will say that Grant Hill is the 1 player I would believe made that decision to help his former team instead of his pocketbook. By far one of the classyest guys to play the game.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
What would you prefer...

A slow, boring team that wins the title?

Or

A running, exciting team that gets to the first round (or not at all) and exits?

Personally, I want the championship, and the best case is a combination of the two--an exciting running team that can compete for the championship. With Kobe Bryant and this current group, we could have that. WIthout him, we do not.

I guess the exciting, fun to watch team. But then winning is always fun to watch.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
If I remember correctly, Hill decided to leave detroit because he thoguht he could win a title with McGrady better than he could with Stackhouse.

Initially, Hill agreed to take less money to sign with the Magic. However, he apparently felt remorse for abondoning the Pistons (he is a good friend of Dumars) so he arranged a sign and trade.

Of course he got the max this way, but I will say that Grant Hill is the 1 player I would believe made that decision to help his former team instead of his pocketbook. By far one of the classyest guys to play the game.

But not classy enough to retire and give the Magic a chance to rebuild.

Thank you for the information.

This issue of getting a player who wants to play with another player is becoming a bigger issue. Kidd was apparently quite serious when he talked to San Antonio about wanting to play with Duncan. Kidd's moving would have been an obvious refuation of my notion that super stars rarely go from major media markets to smaller ones.

In any case, the more fundimental issue is that elite players in their prime rarely change teams through free agency. Last summer, Duncan, Kidd, and J. O'Neal were all free agents and all three re-signed with their former team. Kevin Garnett signed an extension without even testing the waters.

I was really shocked that the Spurs did not make a run at J. O'Neal, but they never thought they had a chance. The Kidd discussions made little sense to me, but Kidd really is a superstar and I'm sure they had the same view of Kidd that Suns fans have of Kobe. In the case of Kidd, he was having problems with his coach and was frustrated with aspects of his team - but he stayed anyway.

I suspect that the Laker soap opera is in a class of its own. Maybe is really is pointless to compare Kobe to anyone previously because there has never been a situation quite like this. I have a tendency to think like an agent rather than like a basketball player which is undoubtedly a mistake.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
But not classy enough to retire and give the Magic a chance to rebuild.

Well, I think he actually believes he can come back and help the team. Everyone else just thinks he should retire. Financially it makes no difference to him (I believe), so it isn't really classless since his intentions are still good.


I agree about the Kobe part. Every situation is different, but they all can usually fall in the same catagory. However, with Bryant, nothing is the same. Precedents are irrelevant in this case.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirChaz
I guess the exciting, fun to watch team. But then winning is always fun to watch.

This just boggles my mind. I just can't imagine being satisfied with mediocrity--whether exciting or not is beside the point.

 

[devilalum]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Well, I think he actually believes he can come back and help the team. (Hill) Everyone else just thinks he should retire. Financially it makes no difference to him (I believe), so it isn't really classless since his intentions are still good.


I agree about the Kobe part. Every situation is different, but they all can usually fall in the same catagory. However, with Bryant, nothing is the same. Precedents are irrelevant in this case.

Like Googs thought he would come back and actually earn the 14 mil he's making.

When I was in my 20's I could dunk a basketball. I have no delusions of ever being able to do this again. Hill knows he's not worth what he's making but he's not going to throw away millions just to prove he has integrity.

Would you?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Devil, i think you are looking at it a little different then me.

His contract is already signed. There is no legal way to renegotiate it to a lower amount in the NBA. The only way for the team to rid themselves of his money is if he retires.

I highly doubt he has delusions of being the same player he was when he signed the deal. However, he feels he can come back and help the team win still.

It isn't really about the money at this point. If he retires, he still gets all his cash.

 

[Gee!]

Kobe has a shoulder problem.. another reason to say no.

 

[Cheesebeef]

okay -I'm trashed so bear withme on this - Do you guys remember when we were the most feared team in the league - Best record in1992-3 - and even though we were underdogs againts the Bulls - we were still in there - HelllI know EVERYONE BELIEVS IF WE WON GAME 6 - WE WOULD HAVE WON GAME 7 - IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GREATESTE GAME OF ALL TIME JORDAN V, BARKELY AND GOSHDAMNIT- WE WOULD HAVE WON - but hat have we missed since then - i'll tell youy what - the best player in the game - which is laways the player the hoists the trophy up - I know we don't like to admit thisd - but Kob3 is the best player in the game - he could take us and Amare and Joe Johnsons to the Finals - we must get Kobe Bryant - he is the fuutre and man I hate to day this - but hre nEXT JORDAN IN THELEAGUE - No one has ice-water in his veins like Kobe does - do anything you can Suns to get him and them we'll bebacm in yhr sala days - you guys rwenever the Conference Finals and CHAMPIONSHIP ROUND - my oodnacious grcauous that wa fun!

I'm trashed - in case you didn't noice!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
okay -I'm trashed so bear withme on this - Do you guys remember when we were the most feared team in the league - Best record in1992-3 - and even though we were underdogs againts the Bulls - we were still in there - HelllI know EVERYONE BELIEVS IF WE WON GAME 6 - WE WOULD HAVE WON GAME 7 - IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GREATESTE GAME OF ALL TIME JORDAN V, BARKELY AND GOSHDAMNIT- WE WOULD HAVE WON - but hat have we missed since then - i'll tell youy what - the best player in the game - which is laways the player the hoists the trophy up - I know we don't like to admit thisd - but Kob3 is the best player in the game - he could take us and Amare and Joe Johnsons to the Finals - we must get Kobe Bryant - he is the fuutre and man I hate to day this - but hre nEXT JORDAN IN THELEAGUE - No one has ice-water in his veins like Kobe does - do anything you can Suns to get him and them we'll bebacm in yhr sala days - you guys rwenever the Conference Finals and CHAMPIONSHIP ROUND - my oodnacious grcauous that wa fun!

I'm trashed - in case you didn't noice!

wow! Trashed yes indeed but good points,ade nonetheless! We need Kobe - man I hate sdaying that - but it's the truth! Me stil trasged!

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
wow! Trashed yes indeed but good points,ade nonetheless! We need Kobe - man I hate sdaying that - but it's the truth! Me stil trasged!

That was the best rendition of "Flowers from Algernon" I've ever seen!