Keep Nash or trade Nash?

[sunsfan88]

To all the people saying we should keep Nash, are you saying if we can get a trade like the one below, we should decline it and still keep Steve?

Phoenix trades:

Steve Nash / Marcin Gortat / Grant Hill / Robin Lopez / Sebastian Telfair / Shannon Brown

Phoenix gets:

Al Horford / Jason Collins / Devin Ebanks / Darius Morris / Luke Walton / LAL 1st / DAL 1st / ATL 1st



Atlanta trades:

Al Horford / Jerry Stackhouse / Jason Collins / Kirk Hinrich / Marvin Williams / ATL 1st

Atlanta gets:

Steve Nash / Marcin Gortat / Grant Hill / Robin Lopez / Sebastian Telfair / Matt Barnes / Shannon Brown / TPE



Los Angeles trades:

Devin Ebanks / Darius Morris / LAL 1st / DAL 1st / TPE / Luke Walton / Matt Barnes

Los Angeles gets:

Kirk Hinrich / Jerry Stackhouse / Marvin Williams


Why for Phoenix?

They finally start to rebuild. Adding an injured Horford will make them the worst team in the NBA but they will get a high draft pick and a healthy Horford next season. They also add some young talent and draft picks.

PG: Ronnie Price / Darius Morris
SG: Jared Dudley / Michael Redd
SF: Devin Ebanks / Josh Childress / Luke Walton
PF: Al Horford / Markieff Morris / Hakim Warrick
C: Jason Collins / Channing Frye

+ PHX 1st, ATL 1st, DAL 1st, LAL 1st and cap space to sign some free agents


Why for Atlanta?

They become a dangerous contender with incredible depth. Nash and Hill will add veteran leadership and Lopez can be a solid backup center. Matt Barnes and Shannon Brown are solid role players and only Telfair would likely to be cut. The TPE will give them some more flexibility in trades.

PG: Steve Nash / Jeff Teague / Jannero Pargo
SG: Joe Johnson / Tracy McGrady / Shannon Brown
SF: Grant Hill / Matt Barnes / Willie Green
PF: Josh Smith / Ivan Johnson / Vladimir Radmanovic
C: Marcin Gortat / Robin Lopez / Zaza Pachulia



Why for Los Angeles?

They go all in while Kobe is still on their roster. They add a nice starting point gaurd and small forward and cut Walton's useless contract. Hinrich would be perfect next to Kobe while Williams can contribute as well.

PG: Kirk Hinrich / Derek Fisher / Steve Blake
SG: Kobe Bryant / Andrew Goudelock / Jerry Stackhouse
SF: Marvin Williams / Metta World Peace / Jason Kapono
PF: Pau Gasol / Josh McRoberts
C: Andrew Bynum / Troy Murphy

 

[JustWinBaby]

You among others keep pushing this Sarver fed nonsense. Of course it's a more palatable sell to try and fool people that this is a team that is a couple moves away from "reloading" and getting back to being competitive soon. Of course this is the same "brain trust" that thought it was wise to lock up Channing, Turk, Hak and Chilz, ruining any flexibility we would have.

If you people really believe this to be a realistic strategy, please support this belief with a legitimate rebuilding plan based around upcoming FA's and a 8-15 pick in the draft.

Please name a realisitic "franchise-changing acquisition." Either
"The Truth" Budden or you are free to elaborate on this one. Give me specific names of people who are FA this year who would choose to join the Suns.

Keep in mind that this supposes:

A. Nash, at 38, after not sniffing the playoffs in the last 2 years, decides against all logic to to come back to arguably the least talented roster in the league. Without Nash, there is little argument that this is a bottom 3 roster. Further, do you really think Nash will come back at a hometown discount, or accept less than the 12-13 million alone to retain him?

B. That anyone would consider playing with Nash for a year or two as a legitimate selling point. Using Nash as a selling point has helped us pick up former gimps and malcontents. Grant Hill, Tim Thomas, Jimmy Jackson and Michael Redd have been ok additions, but what stars have come to Phoenix to play for the Suns? Has any major potential free agent even mentioned Phoenix as an option?

C. It's common knowledge throughout the league that our owner is the biggest prick in the league, and is more concerned with the bottom line than putting together a championship squad. Further, while an above average destination, we have neither the talent nor the big city appeal that nearly all top free agents are attracted to. Finally, the majority of agents hate our owner, which will color the opinions of their clients.

So to recap: We have three legit NBA players, 2 of who will be free agents this offseason and both among the oldest players in the league. Other than that, every other player is below average, with Morris and his low ceiling as the only young player with any potential. Additionally, we have one of the worst owners in the NBA, and a city that has never attracted a superstar.

Please, PLEASE explain to me specifically who and how your pipe dream will come to reality.

Very nice post - unfortunately

It is very hard to read the truth for most fans.

Our best chance is to find 4 or 5 Jeremy Lin's.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Still waiting for the master plan from Budden or Superbone.

 

[mojorizen7]

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Any other way is just a FANtasy.

 

[elindholm]

I've thought it over and I'm definitely in the "keep him" camp.

I've basically given up on the Suns winning a title in my lifetime. There are 30 teams in the league, so even if there were a new champion every season, it would take 30 years for each franchise to get one. Given that the Suns' long-term prospects are below average, they wouldn't figure to be in the first half of that rotation. So let's say 20 years minimum. I'll probably still be alive then, but I can't see myself being very interested in the NBA after all of those years.

So instead, I say, try to enjoy the moment. Is the current Suns team enjoyable to watch, no, not by a long shot. But usually at least once a game, Nash makes a great play, a play no one else could make. Those are fun to see, and I'd rather see them while he's wearing a Phoenix jersey.

That's pretty much it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I've thought it over and I'm definitely in the "keep him" camp.

I've basically given up on the Suns winning a title in my lifetime. There are 30 teams in the league, so even if there were a new champion every season, it would take 30 years for each franchise to get one. Given that the Suns' long-term prospects are below average, they wouldn't figure to be in the first half of that rotation. So let's say 20 years minimum. I'll probably still be alive then, but I can't see myself being very interested in the NBA after all of those years.

So instead, I say, try to enjoy the moment. Is the current Suns team enjoyable to watch, no, not by a long shot. But usually at least once a game, Nash makes a great play, a play no one else could make. Those are fun to see, and I'd rather see them while he's wearing a Phoenix jersey.

That's pretty much it.

and with tht depressing thought, i'll go to bed

 

[mojorizen7]

I've thought it over and I'm definitely in the "keep him" camp.

I've basically given up on the Suns winning a title in my lifetime. There are 30 teams in the league, so even if there were a new champion every season, it would take 30 years for each franchise to get one. Given that the Suns' long-term prospects are below average, they wouldn't figure to be in the first half of that rotation. So let's say 20 years minimum. I'll probably still be alive then, but I can't see myself being very interested in the NBA after all of those years.

So instead, I say, try to enjoy the moment. Is the current Suns team enjoyable to watch, no, not by a long shot.

That's pretty much it.

Hello Steve Nash. Do you care what happens to this franchise that your legacy is firmly attached to?

 

[Errntknght]

The obvious place for Nash to go is to the Knickerbockers to back up Jeremy Lin - playing 15 minutes a game he might go on for another four years. Plenty of opportunity to win a title as long as Chandler stays healthy. Personally, I don't like the idea of helping NY or Pringles win a title but it would be worth it to help the Suns get moving the right direction - and I'd like to see Nash win a title.
As for a trade I'd be thrilled if we got Shumpert out of it. Heck, D'Antoni might insist we take a first round pick or two as well, so he won't have rookies distracting him from doing his job. Maybe we could take Baron Davis back to make the dollars work, then waive him with the understanding that NY would pick him up so we didn't actually have to pay his salary. Or there might be a multi-team deal in which they shed Amare or Carmelo, which would probably be addition by subtraction.

A side note: for all the talk of Carmelo being a black hole this year, its interesting that he's averaging 4.1 assists per game, second best on the team and over triple the number Amare gets.

The main reason to trade Nash is what many people have mentioned - ending Nashball. Except for one stretch with Dragic running a separate unit we've absolutely sucked when Steve wasn't on the floor. If we'd built on that instead of royally screwing it up, I'd be all for keeping him - Hell, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. If our 'brain trust' couldn't see what to do when it being demonstrated nightly, whats the odds they'll ever assemble a workable solution with him here, however lucky they got with acquisitions.

The second reason is to get some high drafts picks so that there might be a decent talent base when we get rid of Sarver & Co.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Or the Lakers, or Miami.

 

[Chaz]

I am for trading Nash if they can get a deal that improves the team.

I don't see how Nash is more valuable to other teams than he is to the Suns. Unless you can fleece another team, trading him for some young stud is not going to happen.


The reality is you only trade Nash if you actually want to get worse so you you can have a better chance at (maybe) a higher pick.

I don't think that is how you run a basketball team.


Keep him and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am for trading Nash if they can get a deal that improves the team.

I don't see how Nash is more valuable to other teams than he is to the Suns. Unless you can fleece another team, trading him for some young stud is not going to happen.


The reality is you only trade Nash if you actually want to get worse so you you can have a better chance at (maybe) a higher pick.

MAYBE? Are you drinking drano? We trade Steve Nash and we probably don't win more than 4 games the rest of the season. that will DEFINITELY get us a better pick in a loaded draft.

I don't think that is how you run a basketball team.


Keep him and let the chips fall where they may.

we know where the chips fall - we've seen it the last three years he's played without Amare... they fall out of the playoffs and not close enough to get a good enough pick to ever improve. THAT isn't a way to run a basketball team.

 

[jandaman]

elindholm's post is depressing.

but I'm adamant and hopeful, if the Suns gamble in the draft, they'll find their Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant etc and have a contending team in 4 seasons.

ALL the superstars in the league today came in via one way... DRAFT.

Improve the chances of landing a superstar by getting a higher pick.... ... banking on a Pick 15 and above to pan out is the same thing, but much much more based on luck... like ten x more reliance on luck in comparison to landing a top 5 pick... or for 2012's case... any pick upto 8th.

 

[Joe Mama]

Hey guys. I admit I haven't read this entire thread, but isn't it a little difficult to answer the question if nobody really knows what the Phoenix Suns could get in return for Steve Nash? I took a minute to read through some of the posts on the Rondo proposal. That's horrible for a number of reasons.

I don't think they'll trade him anywhere he doesn't want to go. In fact I'm confident in that. But if they got a great offer from a team he likes I think they would and should take it.

Joe

 

[jandaman]

but thats the thing, the teams that probably Nash wants to go to are offering crap.... like 8th or 9th bench type players, TPE and no picks.... maybe 2nd rounders...

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Hey guys. I admit I haven't read this entire thread, but isn't it a little difficult to answer the question if nobody really knows what the Phoenix Suns could get in return for Steve Nash? I took a minute to read through some of the posts on the Rondo proposal. That's horrible for a number of reasons.

I don't think they'll trade him anywhere he doesn't want to go. In fact I'm confident in that. But if they got a great offer from a team he likes I think they would and should take it.

Joe

Nice of you to join us Joe, hope the world is treating you well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hey guys. I admit I haven't read this entire thread, but isn't it a little difficult to answer the question if nobody really knows what the Phoenix Suns could get in return for Steve Nash? I took a minute to read through some of the posts on the Rondo proposal. That's horrible for a number of reasons.

I don't think they'll trade him anywhere he doesn't want to go. In fact I'm confident in that. But if they got a great offer from a team he likes I think they would and should take it.

Joe

JOE LIVES!!!!

 

[sunsfan88]

If the Knicks keep sucking after Melo came back, and they offered us 'Melo for Nash + fillers do you guys think PHX should do it?

 

[Griffin]

but isn't it a little difficult to answer the question if nobody really knows what the Phoenix Suns could get in return for Steve Nash?

It appears that those who really want to trade Nash don't really care about getting anything in return. They just want to see the team lose as many games as possible for a chance at a higher draft pick and Nash stands in the way of that.

The problem is, you cannot really guarantee that the draft position will improve much. I have no idea how the team will respond once Nash is gone, but they will still win some games because there are a lot of bad teams this year and the Suns still have to play those teams too. The players will not quit just because Nash is gone. So it's quite possible that the Suns draft position will only improve a few spots and their chances at a top-3 pick won't improve significantly at all.

The other problem of course is finding a team suitable for Nash that also has enough expiring contracts to cover his salary. Even if you are willing to trade him without getting anything of value in return, it is still not easy to come up with Nash trades where the Suns aren't also required to take on bad multi-year contracts. Most people who argue for trading Nash don't offer any realistic trade scenarios as if that was a minor detail that can be worked out later once the team decides to move him.

 

[mojorizen7]

It appears that those who really want to trade Nash don't really care about getting anything in return. They just want to see the team lose as many games as possible for a chance at a higher draft pick and Nash stands in the way of that.

The problem is, you cannot really guarantee that the draft position will improve much. I have no idea how the team will respond once Nash is gone.

You don't? Seriously? IIRC every roster that Nash has been a part of since joining the Phoenix Suns hasn't been able to win games when he sits due to injury or whatever the reason. Whats the Suns record in games without Nash? It cant be good.

This roster in particular would be a deer in headlights if Nash was taken out of the equation. They'd be lucky to win a game.

 

[Griffin]

You don't? Seriously? IIRC every roster that Nash has been a part of since joining the Phoenix Suns hasn't been able to win games when he sits due to injury or whatever the reason. Whats the Suns record in games without Nash? It cant be good.

This roster in particular would be a deer in headlights if Nash was taken out of the equation. They'd be lucky to win a game.

But there's a difference between having a guy through which every play is run miss a game here and there, and not having that guy at all anymore and having to adjust. The Suns never before had to adjust to playing without Nash, they simply tried (and still do) to merely weather the time when he is not on the floor. That won't cut it when he's gone. I have to believe that Gentry will figure out how to get something out of this team even without Nash, so the notion that this team would go into a major 20-game losing streak-type tailspin is a bit unfounded. They will certainly struggle, but no more so than Charlotte or NO and they will still win some games, especially against those types of teams.

Either way, it still doesn't change the fact that this team isn't likely to move Nash just to tank. They've said as much.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It appears that those who really want to trade Nash don't really care about getting anything in return. They just want to see the team lose as many games as possible for a chance at a higher draft pick and Nash stands in the way of that.

Getting the chance to rebuild IS getting something in return. Tell me... what does keeping Nash get us in return? Out of the playoffs and out of contention for a draft pick that can make a difference. in other words... keeping him gets us nothing... for the present or the future.

The problem is, you cannot really guarantee that the draft position will improve much.

people keep saying this, but it's truly ludicrous. Have you all NOT watched pretty much EVERY game over the last 7 years we've had Nash? We lose practically ALL of them... and lose them by wide margins.

I have no idea how the team will respond once Nash is gone,

then you have no idea how basketball works... or you've never watched ample amount of games where we've played without him. it's one or the other.

but they will still win some games because there are a lot of bad teams this year and the Suns still have to play those teams too. The players will not quit just because Nash is gone.

it doesn't matter if they quit or not... there is such a shortage of talent on this team that if you took away the head of the snake, try as they might, they'd still likely be the worst team in the NBA. they would atrocious... like Charlotte/Toronto atrocious.

So it's quite possible that the Suns draft position will only improve a few spots and their chances at a top-3 pick won't improve significantly at all.

improving a few spots is worth it... from 8 to 5 is a big leap AND their chances at a top three pick will improve because they'll have more ping-pong balls.

The other problem of course is finding a team suitable for Nash that also has enough expiring contracts to cover his salary. Even if you are willing to trade him without getting anything of value in return, it is still not easy to come up with Nash trades where the Suns aren't also required to take on bad multi-year contracts.

this much is true. everything else you said above is just ridiculous tho.

 

[mojorizen7]

But there's a difference between having a guy through which every play is run miss a game here and there, and not having that guy at all anymore and having to adjust. The Suns never before had to adjust to playing without Nash, they simply tried (and still do) to merely weather the time when he is not on the floor. That won't cut it when he's gone. I have to believe that Gentry will figure out how to get something out of this team even without Nash, so the notion that this team would go into a major 20-game losing streak-type tailspin is a bit unfounded. They will certainly struggle, but no more so than Charlotte or NO and they will still win some games, especially against those types of teams.

Either way, it still doesn't change the fact that this team isn't likely to move Nash just to tank. They've said as much.

Wow,i'm sorry but i think you may be in denial over this subject.
We most certainly disagree. As for Gentry and the Suns "adjusting" to life without Nash.....these players are all here because the compliment Nash. These are Nashball guys. Ive been trying to explain this dynamic for awhile now....but some of you just dont get it. These guys cant function without Nash,and even with the all star talent we had in the past we saw the same issues & struggles,its Nashball.

Once Nash is gone,there are a few players on this roster will have to be 86'd too(because they cant do anything without the greatness of Nash). Its time to build a team that doesnt rely so much on one guy facilitating everything for everybody...and in a sense,IS the system.
If you cut off the head of the snake,Gentry will not fare well the rest of this season.

 

[mojorizen7]

Cheese,i posted before reading your post. LOL at both of us using the snake analogy.

 

[Griffin]

Getting the chance to rebuild IS getting something in return. Tell me... what does keeping Nash get us in return? Out of the playoffs and out of contention for a draft pick that can make a difference. in other words... keeping him gets us nothing... for the present or the future.

Keep in mind that we are talking about this season only and not what happens with Nash after the summer. So the argument is only whether trading him now for nothing as opposed to losing him this summer for nothing will improve the Suns' future significantly enough to warrant such as move. My stance is that it probably won't matter that much in the long run whether Nash leaves tomorrow or this summer unless the Suns can get something of value in return. Moving up a couple spots in the draft is not something that I would consider significant enough, unless the Suns can move into top-3, which I believe is no longer attainable.

people keep saying this, but it's truly ludicrous. Have you all NOT watched pretty much EVERY game over the last 7 years we've had Nash? We lose practically ALL of them... and lose them by wide margins.

I've addressed this in my other reply. It is not a matter of whether they will struggle or not. We know that they will. It's a question of whether they will lose enough games to move up enough spots to have a significantly better chance at a top-3 pick. That depends on a lot of other factors such as what happens to the other teams and not just what happens with Nash.

it doesn't matter if they quit or not... there is such a shortage of talent on this team that if you took away the head of the snake, try as they might, they'd still likely be the worst team in the NBA. they would atrocious... like Charlotte/Toronto atrocious.

The Suns could lose every game left on their schedule and they'd still likely finish with more wins than Charlotte. The really bad teams in this league have been given a big head start. And if Nash is moved right at the trade deadline, that margin will be even wider. There just wouldn't be enough games to lose for the Suns to move ahead of those teams in the loss column.

improving a few spots is worth it... from 8 to 5 is a big leap AND their chances at a top three pick will improve because they'll have more ping-pong balls.

I didn't say their chances wouldn't improve, I said they may not improve significantly. On average you have to finish with a bottom-6 record in order to have a good chance at a top-3 pick. Moving up from 11 to 9 won't do much good in that regard and I don't think there will be enough time after the trade deadline to move into top-6. Remember the other teams are going to keep losing too.

Wow,i'm sorry but i think you may be in denial over this subject.
We most certainly disagree. As for Gentry and the Suns "adjusting" to life without Nash.....these players are all here because the compliment Nash. These are Nashball guys. Ive been trying to explain this dynamic for awhile now....but some of you just dont get it. These guys cant function without Nash,and even with the all star talent we had in the past we saw the same issues & struggles,its Nashball.

Once Nash is gone,there are a few players on this roster will have to be 86'd too(because they cant do anything without the greatness of Nash). Its time to build a team that doesnt rely so much on one guy facilitating everything for everybody...and in a sense,IS the system.
If you cut off the head of the snake,Gentry will not fare well the rest of this season.

It's not whether the Suns will struggle without Nash, it's whether they will struggle enough to move up enough spots in the draft that their chances of drafting a future star will improve drastically enough. My point is that to be able to answer that with any degree of certainty it is not enough to simply look at what the team has done without Nash in the past. I've said many times in the past that this team can't function without Nash, but at the same time you can't expect them to not make any adjustments at all.

But even if they indeed start losing as often as the worst teams in the league which is quite possible given the lack of talent, those teams are already ahead in the loss column and there is no reason to expect that they will improve. It simply may be too late to trade Nash now to make any significant difference in the long run.

 

[Chaz]

MAYBE? Are you drinking drano? We trade Steve Nash and we probably don't win more than 4 games the rest of the season. that will DEFINITELY get us a better pick in a loaded draft.

With our luck we would have to most lottery balls and still come out with the last possible pick.


I tend to think that if you try to tank karma bites you in the ass.