Keim is on the clock

[Cbus cardsfan]

I've been a Keim backer for years but my support is wavering. This has zero to do with off filed issues and more to do with how the Cards are being run.

Draftwise: I'm not as hard on him as others. The only 2 huge mistakes I think he's made were Reddick and Niklas. The draft is a crap shoot and his record is ok. The last draft shows promise.

Free agency: His approach to free agency is not working. The bargain basement, injury riddled guys does not get it done and hasn't gotten it done. They need to add bona fide talent, not hope somebody reverts to their form of one good year 3 years ago. I saw a quick blurb on ESPN yesterday that over the least 3 years, the teams that spent the most in free agency had their win total increase by about(I'm going from memory) 7 games the next year. The Bears, Rams, and Jax were the 3 teams I believe. So spending on players DOES work.

GM'ing: Keim is the GM and needs to act like it. I'm not a fan of the Kingsbury hiring but am willing to see how it works. That said, KK, along with subsequent hiring of Clement, was hired to coach this offense with Rosen, who was the #1 pick last year. If Keim doesn't think KK can do that, he should have never been hired. To acquiesce to KK wanting a different QB is crazy to me.

2019 draft: This goes with the last sentence above. Taking Kyler Murray at 1 is a bad idea. I know I've posted earlier that I would take Haskins at 1 but I also know, and agreed, that it was very unlikely and not a very prudent move. The Cards knew they had the #1 pick when KK was hired, if they didn't have a plan, well that's another strike against Keim.

As for Murray, I have talked with someone, with no scratch in the game cardinals-wise, and( I'm paraphrasing), was told he has zero concept of an offensive scheme and is one of the least prepared QB's he's ever seen when it come to offensive structure, route trees, protections, coverages, etc. He's not remotely a Russell Wilson-type leader either. He excelled by being the best athlete on the field. That's likely not going to work in the NFL.

Is Keim really going to tie his, and the franchises future, to a 1st year coach and a playground QB and expect to be successful? I guess there is a chance for that but I think it's a longshot at best.

 

[Shane]

Last two paragraphs are gold

 

[Veer]

As for Murray, I have talked with someone, with no scratch in the game cardinals-wise, and( I'm paraphrasing), was told he has zero concept of an offensive scheme and is one of the least prepared QB's he's ever seen when it come to offensive structure, route trees, protections, coverages, etc. He's not remotely a Russell Wilson-type leader either. He excelled by being the best athlete on the field. That's likely not going to work in the NFL.

That's wrong. This is the same offense Baker Mayfield operated in. It's not a pro style offense by any means, but some concepts aren't that different as we've been hearing from the Browns and Mayfield himself. Protections, route combinations, checks have similarities to NFL concepts. Actually Oklahoma's offense puts a lot on the QB's plate and is no gimmick offense by any means, like many pundits think. You must be able to read the coverage and there are route trees based on coverage.

There are pro style offenses in college who produced lots of QB busts recently. Of course they played in a pro style scheme, but they got very little responsibility. Andrew Luck was the last pro style QB in college who I remember having full control of the offense. Alright, maybe Murray - just like Mayfield or Mahomes in college - didn't always had to read the whole field, but it's not like every NFL QB does this all the time. Good play design and knowing where to go with football quickly make reading "the whole field" less important. Even QBs like Brady or Brees often just have a key player to read and design to beat him, mostly in the red zone or on 3rd down.

Being able to improvise can only help Murray's lack of experience in reading the whole field. I don't hear anybody complain when Mahomes ditches his progression after the 1st or 2nd read and makes something happen outside of the play design. We didn't have such ability at all last season. Actually, the scramble drill is something teams with mobile QB put big emphasis on. Having to understsand the opponent's defense and make decisions on the LOS is imo more important than which scheme you operate in. This is a skill that translates to any scheme!

As for being a leader, we can't really know unless we're inside the locker room. You don't have to scream and shout publicly to be a leader. You can lead by example, be a quiet leader, or just somebody who is well liked by the players and staff.

As for the athleticism, Murray didn't use it even that often. Of course he ran away from defenders when he had to and scrambled for yards. And of course there were some designed runs - not too many - because why not take advantage of his skills. Murray never really took any big hits when you watch his highlights. He's pretty good at evading it, sliding and giving himself up when nothing's there. This is a very important skill. Russell Wilson has this ability too and drives me crazy, because all the damage he did to us over the years, we were never able to get good hits on him when he scrambled.

Back to Murray, watching his tape only confirms that he is a pass-first QB. Before watching some full game tape on him, I wasn't really aware of this. There were far less athletic QBs in college who were indeed notorious scramblers. Murray operates from a firm base in the pocket, is very fluid to position himself to throw dimes. Murray is an accurate passer whose size deficits are offset by athleticism you hardly ever see from the QB position.

 

[Shane]

That's wrong. This is the same offense Baker Mayfield operated in. It's not a pro style offense by any means, but some concepts aren't that different as we've been hearing from the Browns and Mayfield himself. Protections, route combinations, checks have similarities to NFL concepts. Actually Oklahoma's offense puts a lot on the QB's plate and is no gimmick offense by any means, like many pundits think. You must be able to read the coverage and there are route trees based on coverage.

There are pro style offenses in college who produced lots of QB busts recently. Of course they played in a pro style scheme, but they got very little responsibility. Andrew Luck was the last pro style QB in college who I remember having full control of the offense. Alright, maybe Murray - just like Mayfield or Mahomes in college - didn't always had to read the whole field, but it's not like every NFL QB does this. Being able to improvise doesn't hurt in this regard. I don't hear anybody complain when Mahomes ditches his progression after the 1st or 2nd read and makes something happen outside of the play design. Actually, the scramble drill is something teams with mobile QB put big emphasis on. Having to understsand the opponent's defense and make decisions on the LOS is imo more important than which scheme you operate in. This is a skill that translates to any scheme!

As for being a leader, we can't really know unless we're inside the locker room. You don't have to scream and shout publicly to be a leader. You can lead by example, be a quiet leader, or just somebody who is well liked by the players and staff.

As for the athleticism, Murray didn't use it even that often. Of course he ran away from defenders when he had to and scrambled for yards. And of course there were some designed runs - not too many - because why not take advantage of his skills. Murray never really took any big hits when you watch his highlights. He's pretty good at evading it, sliding and giving himself up when nothing's there. This is a very important skills. Russell Wilson has this ability too and drives me crazy, because all the damage he did to us over the years, we were never able to get good hits on him when he scrambled.

Back to Murray, watching his tape only confirms that he is a pass-first QB. Before watching some full game tape on him, I wasn't really aware of this. There were far less athletic QBs in college who were indeed notorious scramblers. Murray operates from a firm base in the pocket, is very fluid to position himself to throw dimes. Murray is an accurate passer whose size deficits are offset by athleticism you hardly ever see from the QB position.

That info is based off info from scouts/coaches who interviewed him? How can you say it’s wrong?? Lol

Just because BM ran a similar offense means nothing as far as overall football smarts and whiteboard knowledge.

 

[HeHasRosen]

That's wrong. This is the same offense Baker Mayfield operated in. It's not a pro style offense by any means, but some concepts aren't that different as we've been hearing from the Browns and Mayfield himself. Protections, route combinations, checks have similarities to NFL concepts. Actually Oklahoma's offense puts a lot on the QB's plate and is no gimmick offense by any means, like many pundits think. You must be able to read the coverage and there are route trees based on coverage.

There are pro style offenses in college who produced lots of QB busts recently. Of course they played in a pro style scheme, but they got very little responsibility. Andrew Luck was the last pro style QB in college who I remember having full control of the offense. Alright, maybe Murray - just like Mayfield or Mahomes in college - didn't always had to read the whole field, but it's not like every NFL QB does this all the time. Good play design and knowing where to go with football quickly make reading "the whole field" less important. Even QBs like Brady or Brees often just have a key player to read and design to beat him, mostly in the red zone or on 3rd down.

Being able to improvise can only help Murray's lack of experience in reading the whole field. I don't hear anybody complain when Mahomes ditches his progression after the 1st or 2nd read and makes something happen outside of the play design. We didn't have such ability at all last season. Actually, the scramble drill is something teams with mobile QB put big emphasis on. Having to understsand the opponent's defense and make decisions on the LOS is imo more important than which scheme you operate in. This is a skill that translates to any scheme!

As for being a leader, we can't really know unless we're inside the locker room. You don't have to scream and shout publicly to be a leader. You can lead by example, be a quiet leader, or just somebody who is well liked by the players and staff.

As for the athleticism, Murray didn't use it even that often. Of course he ran away from defenders when he had to and scrambled for yards. And of course there were some designed runs - not too many - because why not take advantage of his skills. Murray never really took any big hits when you watch his highlights. He's pretty good at evading it, sliding and giving himself up when nothing's there. This is a very important skill. Russell Wilson has this ability too and drives me crazy, because all the damage he did to us over the years, we were never able to get good hits on him when he scrambled.

Back to Murray, watching his tape only confirms that he is a pass-first QB. Before watching some full game tape on him, I wasn't really aware of this. There were far less athletic QBs in college who were indeed notorious scramblers. Murray operates from a firm base in the pocket, is very fluid to position himself to throw dimes. Murray is an accurate passer whose size deficits are offset by athleticism you hardly ever see from the QB position.

Yeah no.. This is just wrong on so many different levels. Pure hyperbole and speculation mixed in with inaccuracy on your part.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

That info is based off info from scouts/coaches who interviewed him? How can you say it’s wrong?? Lol

Just because BM ran a similar offense means nothing as far as overall football smarts and whiteboard knowledge.

Exactly. And, I heard BA on the radio last year and he was saying how Mahomes was the best he's ever seen on the whiteboard next to Peyton Manning. So, that comparison is not valid either.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I've been a Keim backer for years but my support is wavering. This has zero to do with off filed issues and more to do with how the Cards are being run.

Draftwise: I'm not as hard on him as others. The only 2 huge mistakes I think he's made were Reddick and Niklas. The draft is a crap shoot and his record is ok.

We giving him a pass on Jonathan Cooper because that whole draft class was kinda of sub-par? I can agree with that.

I would say he is on the hook for either Humphries or Nkimdiche. He gets a pass on one, but not both.

 

[Kai]

I would say he is on the hook for either Humphries or Nkimdiche. He gets a pass on one, but not both.

Pass on Humphries, this was an actually good draft pick. He was very athletic and that’s about it. I bet thought that the O-line coaches would coach up his blocking, but I guess not

 

[Reddog]

As for Murray, I have talked with someone, with no scratch in the game cardinals-wise, and( I'm paraphrasing), was told he has zero concept of an offensive scheme and is one of the least prepared QB's he's ever seen when it come to offensive structure, route trees, protections, coverages, etc. He's not remotely a Russell Wilson-type leader either. He excelled by being the best athlete on the field. That's likely not going to work in the NFL.

Is Keim really going to tie his, and the franchises future, to a 1st year coach and a playground QB and expect to be successful? I guess there is a chance for that but I think it's a longshot at best.

I am not advocating for Murray. In fact my dream scenario is that we trade down and get a boat load of picks, but this is flat out wrong. My son plays in in the Big 12 and played against him last year and he and is teammates said the kid is a freak. My other son is at SMU and last weekend I took he and a few friends out to dinner and two of them play for SMU. Asked them about Murray and they said he was the best they had ever seen. Worth the hype. That said, I still want the picks and to build around Rosen.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I am not advocating for Murray. In fact my dream scenario is that we trade down and get a boat load of picks, but this is flat out wrong. My son plays in in the Big 12 and played against him last year and he and is teammates said the kid is a freak. My other son is at SMU and last weekend I took he and a few friends out to dinner and two of them play for SMU. Asked them about Murray and they said he was the best they had ever seen. Worth the hype. That said, I still want the picks and to build around Rosen.

I hope your son and friends are right, if the Cards draft him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Again, the next criticism I hear about his actual play on the field will be the first time.

 

[Totally_Red]

Regarding free agency THIS year, it looks like it was used to make small to moderate short-term improvements in several positions versus dramatic improvements
in fewer positions. Let's face it, the Cardinals roster was very, very weak last season.

The one exception to the moderate improvement theory is at middle linebacker where a healthy Jordan Hicks is a significant upgrade over last season.

There is no denying the short-term nature of 'our' free agency additions. All seemed to be one or two year deals except Hicks and CB Robert Alford.

If the Cardinals don't hit home runs in this draft, the future is bleak IMO. This is a do-or-die draft for Steve Keim.

 

[Totally_Red]

We giving him a pass on Jonathan Cooper because that whole draft class was kinda of sub-par? I can agree with that.

I would say he is on the hook for either Humphries or Nkimdiche. He gets a pass on one, but not both.

No pass on Nkemdiche. That was a horrible selection.

 

[az jam]

As for Murray, I have talked with someone, with no scratch in the game cardinals-wise, and( I'm paraphrasing), was told he has zero concept of an offensive scheme and is one of the least prepared QB's he's ever seen when it come to offensive structure, route trees, protections, coverages, etc. He's not remotely a Russell Wilson-type leader either. He excelled by being the best athlete on the field. That's likely not going to work in the NFL.

Are you hanging out with Charley Casserly??

 

[WildBB]

Murray's ability for preparedness will be THE evaluation point this FO has to determine. How dedicated to being THE leader, on and off the field.

 

[Garthshort]

Cbus, very disappointed that it took you so long to get to your "Don't draft Murray" point.

 

[Shane]

Again, the next criticism I hear about his actual play on the field will be the first time.

Ummm you’ve criticized him yourself about his play in the field against actual the closest to NFL like caliber talent in Alabama.... Stats good. him good? No.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Kyler "Cussing" Murray

 

[overseascardfan]

Someone created another thread about how Keim’s drafting is about average in terms of hitting on picks but how many of those picks are still on the roster is the argument against him. The point remains that many of his picks are no longer on the roster regardless if they wanted to keep them or not. You have to build your future through the draft but many picks aren’t making it to their second contract here and those still here most likely won’t be here next year (see Humphries & Nkemdiche). This year’s FA haul is nothing to get excited about except for Hicks but gotta hope he is healthy.

 

[slanidrac16]

Back to Kiem. Drafts could have been better but you can look over the history of all 32 teams you will see more missed than hits. In fact look back on drafts 4 years ago and you will see names drafted in the first two rounds that you won’t even remember. As far as free agency look, when we were competitive we were maxing our our cap selling our soul to the devil with the belief we had a chance at the Golden ticket. Last year our backs were against the wall without much cap space. This year we had some cap space but not nearly enough to rebuild the entire team with elite talent. If we can get to 8-8 this year we have a lot of money and that’s when we can make a big move.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Ummm you’ve criticized him yourself about his play in the field against actual the closest to NFL like caliber talent in Alabama.... Stats good. him good? No.

But I got past that because:

1) one game
2) he still had really good moments in that game
3) he was consistently fantastic through out the year
4) his fundamentals at the QB position are phenomenal
5) he is the most explosive player in the draft and it's not even close

 

[Krangodnzr]

Again, let's see some breakdowns of his actual play instead if rumors and character assasination by teams looking to draft him later.

 

[Shane]

But I got past that because:

1) one game
2) he still had really good moments in that game
3) he was consistently fantastic through out the year
4) his fundamentals at the QB position are phenomenal
5) he is the most explosive player in the draft and it's not even close

So it wouldn’t be the first … Gotcha

 

[HeHasRosen]

Ummm you’ve criticized him yourself about his play in the field against actual the closest to NFL like caliber talent in Alabama.... Stats good. him good? No.

Lol yeah he has. Until he went and watched him dominate the worst conference in CFB(probably highlights on youtube). Prisoner of the moment imo.

I have already said Krang, you know and I know he is not a perfect prospect. He has many things you can question.

There's no proof of him being able to read defenses pre or post snap. He never had to. 1 to 2 reads and usually wide open WR. The one thing he did that I liked was rolled his shoulders to look off defenders. But he already knows where hes throwing it due to the play being called.

I also keep seeing people say he moves in the pocket to throw the ball. This is just completely wrong. Sometimes while running towards the sideline he keeps his eyes down field, but more times than not he sees a hole and takes off missing wide open receivers down field. He plays hero ball a lot.

Factor that in with a small sample size. Small frame (notice im not even mentioning his height which i don't think is a big deal) 1 year college starter. On a great team with tons of talent and the best offensive HC in college football. Yeah im not sold or buying in to the hype.

If and when (and at this point I fully expect them to take Murray) they draft him he has much to learn and will struggle like all rookies.
I don't see him as so much better than Rosen. I see it being close and Id rather spend the picks to build the rest of the team.

 

[Krangodnzr]

If and when (and at this point I fully expect them to take Murray) they draft him he has much to learn and will struggle like all rookies.
I don't see him as so much better than Rosen. I see it being close and Id rather spend the picks to build the rest of the team.

Did you know that Josh Rosen was bottom ten in net yards per attempt since 2000? That's all QB seasons.

Rosen was historically bad on many levels. Rosen is such a huge question mark at the most important position on the football field. That's why I changed my opinion; Rosen wasn't just bad, he was historically bad. That's the thing that hasn't been addressed much with the Pro-Rosen crowd. It's a huge gamble that Rosen actually works out.

The problem isn't necessarily that he had a bad line (multiple QBs were actually pressured more) or that his receivers were bad (his receiver's drop rate was around NFL average). The problem is that Rosen consistently made really bad reads. Name one GOOD game that Rosen had last year. One. Murray's worst game QB rating wasn't too far off of Rosen's SEASON average (139.1 vs 147). I know Riley's system helps QBs out, but we have a player (Mayfield) to compare how well it can translate to the NFL level.

Murray had one bad game in which he passed for 300 yards and rushed for 100 yards. That was his worst game of the season. He could be a generational type talent, because he pairs a strong arm WITH accuracy and good ball placement, with elite running ability.