Key Phrase in Urban's Latest Propaganda Piece

[Cheesebeef]

I had a major issue with Snyders contract when they signed him. It blew my mind that the would throw all of that money at a sub-par guard who was a backup at best. The fact that they signed him to be a starter made me want to throw up.

Old Snyder signing thread here:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/adam-snyder-a-card-176977.html

i'm sure the bradley thread is even uglier. I HATED that move. It was clear as day to me that signing him to a pretty big deal was idiotic at the time and it didn't take a crystal ball or Doc Brown's delorean to tell me that.

 

[Chopper0080]

To be fair, the contract for Kolb was absolutely fine. It's perfectly in line with a starting quarterback on his second contract. The evaluation of Kolb was poor. The trade was irresponsible. But the contract itself was right in line with the market.

The problem was the process in getting to the contract.

Bradley's, Colledge's, and Syder's contracts were all dumb. The Bradley signing itself was reprehensible, because it was a poor evaluation and projection compounded by a complete mis-reading of the market at that particular position.

Where I would disagree is that Kolb's contract was in line with the second contract for an experienced starting QB, and Kolb wasn't that. His contract should have been in line with a first contract for a QB being elevated from a back up to a starter.

But that is just my opinion and who knows if he would have said yes to that offer. If he wouldn't, I would have rolled the dice, dropped my offer and took my chances on the Eagles deciding what they wanted to do.

 

[40yearfan]

And I get accused of speaking out of both sides of my mouth. At least I'm consistent.

K9, at least read my whole post and not take bits of it out of context. As I stated twice, Arians has more of a say so on FA's and Keim more so on the draft. This is due to their familiarity with the players involved. It's hard to explain how an organization can operate to someone who has never experienced it. It's a team decision weighted by experience of each individual involved. It's called management by consensus and most successful organizations operate with that premise.

I'm sure there are people on this board who if they were the owner would make all the decisions like Schneider in DC. You see how well that works.

 

[40yearfan]

And as usual you ignore the results. All the great planning in the world wouldn't help an electrical contractor if the bosses kept hiring guys who put the wiring in backwards.

So you keep changing personnel until you find someone who knows the proper method.

 

[40yearfan]

I thought we were talking about an NFL team, not some stupid kid in kindergarden.

This doesn't even make sense.

 

[Chopper0080]

K9, at least read my whole post and not take bits of it out of context. As I stated twice, Arians has more of a say so on FA's and Keim more so on the draft. This is due to their familiarity with the players involved. It's hard to explain how an organization can operate to someone who has never experienced it. It's a team decision weighted by experience of each individual involved. It's called management by consensus and most successful organizations operate with that premise.

I'm sure there are people on this board who if they were the owner would make all the decisions like Schneider in DC. You see how well that works.

Here is why I will say that you are wrong. Keim is the GM, which means the scouting dept answers to him. The scouting dept is comprised of college scouts AND professional scouts. This means they scout both college and current professional players. Keim uses this info to determine which players he will add through both FA and the draft. Where Arians opinion matters is his advising Keim on what types of players he needs to fit the offense, defense and special teams he is responsible for. I am sure that Keim would reach out to Arians for his opinion on a player who Arians or one of Arians' staff has experience with. That is just being smart by collecting as much info on players as possible. But, in the end, Keim makes the decision and has ultimate authority regardless.

 

[40yearfan]

Yes. I could have told you that contracts to Kolb, Bradley, Colledge and Snyder were bad at the time.

Kolb was a west coast QB with a limited history and coming off a year where he lost his job to injury. On top of that, Kolb was being signed to run a completely different style of offense than he was used to and his skillse were set for. The Cardinals did a good job trying to add a QB, but they made a stupid choice in giving him a contract that paid him a ton of money when there was little proof he was going to be successful.

Bradley was a 4-3 MLB who had some injury concerns and, again, was from a system where the DTs prtected him. We signed him to a position in a totally different scheme that no longer gave him that protection and forced him to take on offensive linemen. Also, similar to Kolb, we have him a large contract that compensated him as a top ILB when he had never proven himself as one.

Colledge and Synder were bth the worst players on their respective offensive lines. Even worse, this was pretty common knowledge. Colledge's intial contract wasn't terrible, but still was bad because it pushed his signing bonus over 5 years which made it more difficult to cut him. What made this worse was the Cards restructed his contract last offseason to make it even more difficult to cut him and paid him in 2013 maong the elite OGs in the game. Snyder's contract was equally poor as it gave him 5 mil, but spread it out over 5 years. So, despite having a reasonable base salary, the inability to get out of the contract because of the bonus being spread out over 5 years was dumb.

It doesn't take a time machine to see the flaw in signing poor players, who are not scheme fits, to long terms contracts that are cap costly to get out of. Competent GMs should know this if I do.

Reconstructing these contracts using hindsight is easy. You might have had a suspicion they wouldn't work, but you couldn't know for sure. If our coaching staff had been better teachers, any or all of these players could have worked out and been worth their salaries. Unless you believe that all future events are pre-ordaned, there is no such thing as a sure thing.

 

[40yearfan]

Here is why I will say that you are wrong. Keim is the GM, which means the scouting dept answers to him. The scouting dept is comprised of college scouts AND professional scouts. This means they scout both college and current professional players. Keim uses this info to determine which players he will add through both FA and the draft. Where Arians opinion matters is his advising Keim on what types of players he needs to fit the offense, defense and special teams he is responsible for. I am sure that Keim would reach out to Arians for his opinion on a player who Arians or one of Arians' staff has experience with. That is just being smart by collecting as much info on players as possible. But, in the end, Keim makes the decision and has ultimate authority regardless.

This is your opinion and it is different than mine. Since neither of us is involved in the actual operation, we can never know for sure who is right or if both of us are wrong. I understand this, but I don't believe you do. Just because you want something to be a certain way doesn't mean it is.

 

[kerouac9]

Where I would disagree is that Kolb's contract was in line with the second contract for an experienced starting QB, and Kolb wasn't that. His contract should have been in line with a first contract for a QB being elevated from a back up to a starter.

But that is just my opinion and who knows if he would have said yes to that offer. If he wouldn't, I would have rolled the dice, dropped my offer and took my chances on the Eagles deciding what they wanted to do.

Kolb's contract was in line with what Matt Schaub got when he was traded to the Texans, and what Matt Cassel got when he was traded to the Chiefs.

There was a substantial downward revision in what these kinds of QBs should get the following year with the Flynn deal, and we're not likely to see these kinds of big contracts for low-exposure quarterbacks again.

I was supportive of the contract that we gave Kolb when it happened, and I think the process in creating that contract was the right one. Because the results of the signing didn't work out doesn't mean that the process of reaching that agreement were flawed or mistaken.

You can look back to those threads from July 2010 to see where I was. I think I titled it "On the Record for Kevin Kolb." I'd stated what I thought was the right trade compensation for Kolb was, and what I thought was a fair contract in the market. The deal didn't work out, but, again, the contract itself was fine based on the available information and our desperate need to do something at the position.

It's worth remembering where we were as a team when that deal was done. The feeling was that the core of a Super Bowl/playoff contender were in place, and it just needed a competent QB to put us back in the position to win the NFC West. The division was utter garbage--a 7-9 team had just won it.

 

[kerouac9]

K9, at least read my whole post and not take bits of it out of context. As I stated twice, Arians has more of a say so on FA's and Keim more so on the draft. This is due to their familiarity with the players involved. It's hard to explain how an organization can operate to someone who has never experienced it. It's a team decision weighted by experience of each individual involved. It's called management by consensus and most successful organizations operate with that premise.

I'm sure there are people on this board who if they were the owner would make all the decisions like Schneider in DC. You see how well that works.

I think you overstate how much knowledge individual coaches have of the state of the entire NFL. These guys are primarily focused for 9 months a year on the guys that they are working with, not the other 31 teams in the league. When they study opponent film, they're not evaluating them for their own systems. There's very little reason for Arians to watch film of, say, the Houston offensive line during an NFL season, because he doesn't have any activity with that.

Chopper's right that the scouting staff has the most say and authority on putting together a list of potential players who are both NFL players and collegiate prospects.

I think that management by consensus is terrible, because what happens if two people have passionate but opposing beliefs? Either someone wins, or you take that option off the table and move to a different player that everyone can agree on.

This rarely works in a resource-limited environment in the NFL, and frequently results in least-worst decision-making like picking a WR with the 16th pick in the NFL draft instead of a lineman or rush linebacker with higher upside.

 

[Duckjake]

So you keep changing personnel until you find someone who knows the proper method.

No you'd be out of business.

Well now that I think about it the Bidwills' have been smart. They figured out a long time ago that they didn't have to win, ever. The goal is to keep as much of the shared revenue, and now extra dollars from the new stadium, as possible because there is no penalty for failure in the NFL as an owner. You could go 5-11 every year for 60 years, which is basically what the Cardinals have done, and not lose your team because no one else can come to your city and offer a better product because of the monopoly.

Sheer genius.

But don't expect the fans to appreciate it.

 

[Chopper0080]

This is your opinion and it is different than mine. Since neither of us is involved in the actual operation, we can never know for sure who is right or if both of us are wrong. I understand this, but I don't believe you do. Just because you want something to be a certain way doesn't mean it is.

When Urban confirms that Keim is "reshaping the roster to his vision" and the Caridinals organizational structure has both a college scouting dept and a professional scouting dept is becomes less of what I "want" and more of what is deemed as fact. I guess you could speculate that Arians has more say on FAs than Keim's professional scouting dept, but I would question why would that be so when Arians can only speak to the handful of players he or his staff have experience with, and Keim's pro scounting dept scouts the entire league. Again, I am sure that Keim will reach out to coaches who have experience with players Keim might bring in, but for the most part, he has to trust his pro scouts because that is what he is paying them to do.

What I am stating is the facts that are available to us fans support my view of the front office than yours because you can't show any facts that support your arguement while I can. I can site Urban's words and our organizational chart while you offer only speculation.

 

[Chopper0080]

Reconstructing these contracts using hindsight is easy. You might have had a suspicion they wouldn't work, but you couldn't know for sure. If our coaching staff had been better teachers, any or all of these players could have worked out and been worth their salaries. Unless you believe that all future events are pre-ordaned, there is no such thing as a sure thing.

Of course, which is why the front office was stupid to not consider that these players might not adjust to their new jobs, and construct the contracts accordingly.

Any player you acquire comes with a level of risk. A smart front office calculates that risk and drafts contracts accordingly. The greater the risk, the more important it is that the contract protects the team. The organization failed to do that with Kolb, Bradley, Snyder and Colledge and are now paying for it.

It isn't hindsight, it is identifying the lack of forsight that this organization has shown.

 

[Chopper0080]

Kolb's contract was in line with what Matt Schaub got when he was traded to the Texans, and what Matt Cassel got when he was traded to the Chiefs.

There was a substantial downward revision in what these kinds of QBs should get the following year with the Flynn deal, and we're not likely to see these kinds of big contracts for low-exposure quarterbacks again.

I was supportive of the contract that we gave Kolb when it happened, and I think the process in creating that contract was the right one. Because the results of the signing didn't work out doesn't mean that the process of reaching that agreement were flawed or mistaken.

You can look back to those threads from July 2010 to see where I was. I think I titled it "On the Record for Kevin Kolb." I'd stated what I thought was the right trade compensation for Kolb was, and what I thought was a fair contract in the market. The deal didn't work out, but, again, the contract itself was fine based on the available information and our desperate need to do something at the position.

It's worth remembering where we were as a team when that deal was done. The feeling was that the core of a Super Bowl/playoff contender were in place, and it just needed a competent QB to put us back in the position to win the NFC West. The division was utter garbage--a 7-9 team had just won it.

Good point.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think you overstate how much knowledge individual coaches have of the state of the entire NFL. These guys are primarily focused for 9 months a year on the guys that they are working with, not the other 31 teams in the league. When they study opponent film, they're not evaluating them for their own systems. There's very little reason for Arians to watch film of, say, the Houston offensive line during an NFL season, because he doesn't have any activity with that.

Chopper's right that the scouting staff has the most say and authority on putting together a list of potential players who are both NFL players and collegiate prospects.

I think that management by consensus is terrible, because what happens if two people have passionate but opposing beliefs? Either someone wins, or you take that option off the table and move to a different player that everyone can agree on.

This rarely works in a resource-limited environment in the NFL, and frequently results in least-worst decision-making like picking a WR with the 16th pick in the NFL draft instead of a lineman or rush linebacker with higher upside.

Agreed. The GM SHOULD have the final say because his responsibility is primarily to the 2014 Cardinals and beyond, while the head coach's responsibility is primarily to the 2013 Cardinals. The head coach needs to have his opinion heard, but that opinion should be more towards the needs of the systems he has in place, and less on the actual player decision unless he has direct knowledge of that player. It is the scouting dept's job to identify the players that fit the coach's needs and provide that info to the GM to make the ultimate decision.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

No you'd be out of business.

Well now that I think about it the Bidwills' have been smart. They figured out a long time ago that they didn't have to win, ever. The goal is to keep as much of the shared revenue, and now extra dollars from the new stadium, as possible because there is no penalty for failure in the NFL as an owner. You could go 5-11 every year for 60 years, which is basically what the Cardinals have done, and not lose your team because no one else can come to your city and offer a better product because of the monopoly.

Sheer genius.

But don't expect the fans to appreciate it.

Well said.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Kolb's contract was in line with what Matt Schaub got when he was traded to the Texans, and what Matt Cassel got when he was traded to the Chiefs.

There was a substantial downward revision in what these kinds of QBs should get the following year with the Flynn deal, and we're not likely to see these kinds of big contracts for low-exposure quarterbacks again.

I was supportive of the contract that we gave Kolb when it happened, and I think the process in creating that contract was the right one. Because the results of the signing didn't work out doesn't mean that the process of reaching that agreement were flawed or mistaken.

You can look back to those threads from July 2010 to see where I was. I think I titled it "On the Record for Kevin Kolb." I'd stated what I thought was the right trade compensation for Kolb was, and what I thought was a fair contract in the market. The deal didn't work out, but, again, the contract itself was fine based on the available information and our desperate need to do something at the position.

It's worth remembering where we were as a team when that deal was done. The feeling was that the core of a Super Bowl/playoff contender were in place, and it just needed a competent QB to put us back in the position to win the NFC West. The division was utter garbage--a 7-9 team had just won it.

An alternative to signing Kolb to a giant extension would have been to let him prove himself in the first year, then reward him with an extension, franchise tag him, or let him go.

Obviously we would have taken a lot of grief if we dumped him after year one, but then again, we'd be in a much better position than we are now.

 

[40yearfan]

I think you overstate how much knowledge individual coaches have of the state of the entire NFL. These guys are primarily focused for 9 months a year on the guys that they are working with, not the other 31 teams in the league. When they study opponent film, they're not evaluating them for their own systems. There's very little reason for Arians to watch film of, say, the Houston offensive line during an NFL season, because he doesn't have any activity with that.

Chopper's right that the scouting staff has the most say and authority on putting together a list of potential players who are both NFL players and collegiate prospects.

I think that management by consensus is terrible, because what happens if two people have passionate but opposing beliefs? Either someone wins, or you take that option off the table and move to a different player that everyone can agree on.

This rarely works in a resource-limited environment in the NFL, and frequently results in least-worst decision-making like picking a WR with the 16th pick in the NFL draft instead of a lineman or rush linebacker with higher upside.

This very seldom happens (bolded portion) so it really isn't that pertinent.

The fact that the NFL is resource limited makes this form of organization that much more valuable. When you rely on only one opinion, you are subject to the whims and fears that one opinion might encompass. A consensus opinion with input from many angles usually has a much better chance of being better.

It's obvious we have different opinions as to how to operate an NFL team. I believe I am right, but I respect your opinion however and thank you for the discussion.

 

[40yearfan]

No you'd be out of business.

Well now that I think about it the Bidwills' have been smart. They figured out a long time ago that they didn't have to win, ever. The goal is to keep as much of the shared revenue, and now extra dollars from the new stadium, as possible because there is no penalty for failure in the NFL as an owner. You could go 5-11 every year for 60 years, which is basically what the Cardinals have done, and not lose your team because no one else can come to your city and offer a better product because of the monopoly.

Sheer genius.

But don't expect the fans to appreciate it.

So according to you it is the same old Cardinals and they haven't been making an attempt to better this team? I find it hard to believe anyone thinks that way after MB took over.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I had a major issue with Snyders contract when they signed him. It blew my mind that the would throw all of that money at a sub-par guard who was a backup at best. The fact that they signed him to be a starter made me want to throw up.

Old Snyder signing thread here:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/adam-snyder-a-card-176977.html

Hilarious thread...the more things change...

 

[40yearfan]

When Urban confirms that Keim is "reshaping the roster to his vision" and the Caridinals organizational structure has both a college scouting dept and a professional scouting dept is becomes less of what I "want" and more of what is deemed as fact. I guess you could speculate that Arians has more say on FAs than Keim's professional scouting dept, but I would question why would that be so when Arians can only speak to the handful of players he or his staff have experience with, and Keim's pro scounting dept scouts the entire league. Again, I am sure that Keim will reach out to coaches who have experience with players Keim might bring in, but for the most part, he has to trust his pro scouts because that is what he is paying them to do.

What I am stating is the facts that are available to us fans support my view of the front office than yours because you can't show any facts that support your arguement while I can. I can site Urban's words and our organizational chart while you offer only speculation.

You state the facts support your position and then use Urban's opinion as your facts. I guess your definition of a fact is different than mine. Does that mean if I use Jurecki, it will have the same weight as Urban does?

As I stated, neither of us have a direct line into the Cardinals organization so all we can do is use conjecture and supposition. I realize this, but you won't recognize it. To each his own.

 

[40yearfan]

Agreed. The GM SHOULD have the final say because his responsibility is primarily to the 2014 Cardinals and beyond, while the head coach's responsibility is primarily to the 2013 Cardinals. The head coach needs to have his opinion heard, but that opinion should be more towards the needs of the systems he has in place, and less on the actual player decision unless he has direct knowledge of that player. It is the scouting dept's job to identify the players that fit the coach's needs and provide that info to the GM to make the ultimate decision.

So who has the responsibility if the club has a losing record? Is it the head coach who didn't get the players he wanted or the GM who stacked the team with his people against the wishes of the head coach?

 

[kerouac9]

This very seldom happens (bolded portion) so it really isn't that pertinent.

The fact that the NFL is resource limited makes this form of organization that much more valuable. When you rely on only one opinion, you are subject to the whims and fears that one opinion might encompass. A consensus opinion with input from many angles usually has a much better chance of being better.

It's obvious we have different opinions as to how to operate an NFL team. I believe I am right, but I respect your opinion however and thank you for the discussion.

It happens all the time in the NFL. Want some examples?

- Matt Leinart vs. Jay Cutler
- Levi Brown vs. Adrian Peterson
- Kevin Kolb vs. other available quarterbacks (including Matt Hasselback)
- Cutting vs. keeping Kerry Rhodes and Adrian Wilson

It's difficult to believe that of the dozens of personnel moves that take place over the course of a single offseason, every one of them are reached with complete consensus and equanimity. It's absolutely pertinent, because the decisions that the parties are passionate about are frequently the ones that have the most impact on a franchise or business.

 

[az240zz]

You understood it? Was it about all the tacky knick nacks again?

Yes I did. He knows what he wants but just isn't getting the name brand stuff.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You state the facts support your position and then use Urban's opinion as your facts. I guess your definition of a fact is different than mine. Does that mean if I use Jurecki, it will have the same weight as Urban does?

Urban works for the team. Jureki doesn't. Call me crazy, but I'd give more weight to the guy who works for the team then the guy on the outside, especially when the subject isn't overly controversial.