Key Phrase in Urban's Latest Propaganda Piece

[40yearfan]

The problem is K9 that you are making a statement about how the FO operates with absolutely no way of knowing whether it is truthful or not. You are insisting Keim has the final say with Arians having minimal input. You can't know that for sure. It is only your opinion. That is the problem most of us have with your posts.

 

[kerouac9]

The problem is K9 that you are making a statement about how the FO operates with absolutely no way of knowing whether it is truthful or not. You are insisting Keim has the final say with Arians having minimal input. You can't know that for sure. It is only your opinion. That is the problem most of us have with your posts.

1) No one here with the exception of JimO have any actual insight founded on direct experience as to how the front office operates. Why in the world would you think that any post here speaks other than opinion, unless it's specifically cited and backed up with evidence (which my OP does).

2) Maybe you should actually read my posts:

I've been saying for a while that Arians has little control over the makeup of this roster and the personnel moves being made by the front office. As much as the propaganda arm is a reflection of the operations within Hardy Drive, this seems to be the case.

Nothing literally there to suggest that I'm speaking an opinion here. I'm not writing "IMO" on every single one of my posts, because it's part of the nature of the form.

 

[Finito]

Wow personal attacks huh.

Hey uh you seem a Lil negative

Followed by

Hey maybe I'm reading you wrong


Sounds like a good old fashioned 2006 flame war. I apologize to anyone who felt " attacked"

 

[Duckjake]

I heartily endorse this recommendation. You can get a copy super-cheap on ABE.com, but you're better off going though Amazon using the ASFN portal.

If want to understand how modern football works from the front office perspective (ownership to coordinator level), check out Next Man Up.

If you want to understand it from the player's perspective as well--from the star quarterback to the special teams player--check out A Few Seconds of Panic by Stefan Fatsis. Bonus exposure to Jake Plummer, Mike Leach, and a final scene in the opening preseason of UofP.

Speaking of things like this are there any sources for solid in depth information on how individual coaches like to operate other than message boards? I'd like to get more info on our new DC for instance.

 

[40yearfan]

1) No one here with the exception of JimO have any actual insight founded on direct experience as to how the front office operates. Why in the world would you think that any post here speaks other than opinion, unless it's specifically cited and backed up with evidence (which my OP does).

2) Maybe you should actually read my posts:



Nothing literally there to suggest that I'm speaking an opinion here. I'm not writing "IMO" on every single one of my posts, because it's part of the nature of the form.

Kinda touchy aren't we. You speak in absolutes, so naturally someone who disagrees with you is going to question your posts. First you say it's an opinion and then you say unless it is backed up with evidence which you say your OP has. So are you saying it's just your opinion or it's actual fact? Please pick just one.

 

[kerouac9]

Speaking of things like this are there any sources for solid in depth information on how individual coaches like to operate other than message boards? I'd like to get more info on our new DC for instance.

Well, there's this sweet Florida Sun-Sentiel piece from when he became the Fins' HC: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...owles-leslie-frazier-new-miami-dolphins-coach

It's difficult to get good info on assistant coaches. Bowles hasn't been a DC in two decades, and how much do you usually know about position coaches who get fired all the time?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Yup.



And his Agent apparently.



Let people call a spade a spade. Its not like other posters don't have their own M.O.

Complaining, taking the contrarian opinion, and being negative is K9's "thing". Been that way for 10 years now. That old dog ain learning new tricks so just roll withit. Although I have to say predicting the next 3 seasons and having Arians "fired" because of a Darren Urban article that says "as the GM shapes the roster in his image" (OMG THAT IS INSANE. WAIT THATS SUPPOSED TO BE THE GMS JOB RIGHT? Errrrr) and he has no actual authority is tin foil hat logic at its finest. But hey. Sure sounds like a "football opinion" to me.

Oh wait im supposed to have him on ignore.

BTW Im not trying to be rude here. Im just standing up for this posters right to call what he sees. You would think some of the regulars here would get if EVERYONE else is poining it out, well maybe there some truth to it.

Let the people speak. Its a message board. K9 knows what hes doing. Hes hiding his agenda pushing and needling/ talking down to other posters behind having "thoughtful football discussion" and God bless em some people actually are buying it!

Wrong. There was no reason for his post to call out K9.

 

[Duckjake]

Kinda touchy aren't we. You speak in absolutes, so naturally someone who disagrees with you is going to question your posts. First you say it's an opinion and then you say unless it is backed up with evidence which you say your OP has. So are you saying it's just your opinion or it's actual fact? Please pick just one.

Well 40 why don't you tell us who you think is doing what in the front office and what can be gleaned to that from Urban's writings.

I'd like to see how it compares to your defending everything Graves did for 10 years only now to have everyone, even the most hard core members of the kool-aid gang talk about the mess Graves created.

 

[kerouac9]

Kinda touchy aren't we. You speak in absolutes, so naturally someone who disagrees with you is going to question your posts. First you say it's an opinion and then you say unless it is backed up with evidence which you say your OP has. So are you saying it's just your opinion or it's actual fact? Please pick just one.

It's an opinion supported by facts. It always is. Unless it's supported by "belief" or "faith" or "hope" or whatever. I tend not to express my hopes on this board, because I expect to be held to the same standard as I hold others: on what is that hope, faith, or belief founded?

I try and substantiate my opinions with facts where I can, so people don't tend to ask that question of me.

 

[kerouac9]

Duck--here's a much better profile of Bowles from the Palm Beach Post:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/s...ns-todd-bowles-always-had-a-future-as-/nL2XG/

Take away? He's sarcastic.

One from when he became Philly DC: http://articles.philly.com/2012-10-...-bowles-reid-and-bowles-defensive-coordinator

 

[40yearfan]

Well 40 why don't you tell us who you think is doing what in the front office and what can be gleaned to that from Urban's writings.

I'd like to see how it compares to your defending everything Graves did for 10 years only now to have everyone, even the most hard core members of the kool-aid gang talk about the mess Graves created.

I think it's like MB said. Everyone has input and they come to a Cardinal decision as to what is best for the team. I believe Arians has as much input as any of the other FO personnel and that when push comes to shove, he gets the last word on player personnel. There is no way to hold him responsible for a won/loss record if you are picking all his players for him.

What mess did Graves create? Whis had the final say so on the players. All Graves did was sign them up. And all the fuss about being over the CAP? A few manuevers and Viola, we have plenty of cap room. Do you honestly believe it wasn't known that this was possible and planned for in advance? We have some knowledgeable posters on here and we also have some who come to conclusions not always substantiated by anything other than personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with questioning those opinions.

 

[kerouac9]

I think it's like MB said. Everyone has input and they come to a Cardinal decision as to what is best for the team. I believe Arians has as much input as any of the other FO personnel and that when push comes to shove, he gets the last word on player personnel. There is no way to hold him responsible for a won/loss record if you are picking all his players for him.

What mess did Graves create? Whis had the final say so on the players. All Graves did was sign them up. And all the fuss about being over the CAP? A few manuevers and Viola, we have plenty of cap room. Do you honestly believe it wasn't known that this was possible and planned for in advance? We have some knowledgeable posters on here and we also have some who come to conclusions not always substantiated by anything other than personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with questioning those opinions.

So what, in your mind, is Steve Keim's job/role in the organization, and how is that different from Rod Graves'?

 

[desertdawg]

I run this mamma jamma up in here. I write down everything I want each week from the grocery store because I am the freakin man yo. But I rarely get to decide which hotdogs we buy because she gets what evers on sale, and I usually aint even there. Most times I don't get everything on my list, and I often end up with some cheap ass Little Debbies when Entenmann's was written clear as day!!! But I run this mamma jamma all right...

 

[40yearfan]

It's an opinion supported by facts. It always is. Unless it's supported by "belief" or "faith" or "hope" or whatever. I tend not to express my hopes on this board, because I expect to be held to the same standard as I hold others: on what is that hope, faith, or belief founded?

I try and substantiate my opinions with facts where I can, so people don't tend to ask that question of me.

The only thing I question is whether or not your facts are really facts or deductions from a certain set of circumstances. Regardless, don't feel picked on if some of the posters speak to your negativity. Some fans need to have a positive spin put on the fandom and they are positive people who will always hope for the best even as they notice the whine of the 2,000 pound bomb falling rapidly on their position.

 

[Duckjake]

I think it's like MB said. Everyone has input and they come to a Cardinal decision as to what is best for the team. I believe Arians has as much input as any of the other FO personnel and that when push comes to shove, he gets the last word on player personnel. There is no way to hold him responsible for a won/loss record if you are picking all his players for him.

What mess did Graves create? Whis had the final say so on the players. All Graves did was sign them up. And all the fuss about being over the CAP? A few manuevers and Viola, we have plenty of cap room. Do you honestly believe it wasn't known that this was possible and planned for in advance? We have some knowledgeable posters on here and we also have some who come to conclusions not always substantiated by anything other than personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with questioning those opinions.

The mess people have been talking about includes having to release talented players because they were signed to bad contracts. Obviously Michael Bidwill didn't agree with you and fired Graves.

So is it your opinion that Michael Bidwill knew all along that there was a possibility the contracts were bad and that'd they'd have to ditch most of them and planned for it in advance? I doubt it. Especially when he fired the guys responsible for the planning. Just last year you were saying they were great contracts put in place by smart business people. I just can't see an owner a year or two previously thinking that if they need cap space in the future they can just release their starting QB, #1 RB, and #1 and #2 Safeties. Remember these contracts were done before last season's debacle.

 

[40yearfan]

So what, in your mind, is Steve Keim's job/role in the organization, and how is that different from Rod Graves'?

Keim is the former head of the scouting department, so he has a world of knowledge concerning college players in the draft. I would assume he will have quite a bit of say during the draft which Rod Graves didn't have because he wasn't involved in scouting. However for FA's, Arians would have more say so because he was personally involved with them and would have a lot more information about them than Keim does. If you will notice, most of the FA's that were signed had either played for Arians or he had knowledge of them from sometime in the past. Any time you work as a committee, the person with the most knowledge will normally lead an individual effort.

 

[40yearfan]

The mess people have been talking about includes having to release talented players because they were signed to bad contracts.

So is it your opinion that Michael Bidwill knew all along that there was a possibility the contracts were bad and that'd they'd have to ditch most of them and planned for it in advance? I doubt it. Especially when he fired the guys responsible for the planning. Just last year you were saying they were great contracts put in place by smart business people.

You are the one saying bad contracts. I never said that and I disagree with you. The proof is in the pudding. The contracts were written so they could be gotten out of easily. And just because you think they got rid of good players to get the CAP under control doesn't mean that is what actually happened. I think they planned ahead when the contracts were being written and they were written with this scenario in mind. A good organization plans ahead and I believe MB runs a good organization. So yes, great contracts were put in place by smart people.

 

[kerouac9]

Keim is the former head of the scouting department, so he has a world of knowledge concerning college players in the draft. I would assume he will have quite a bit of say during the draft which Rod Graves didn't have because he wasn't involved in scouting. However for FA's, Arians would have more say so because he was personally involved with them and would have a lot more information about them than Keim does. If you will notice, most of the FA's that were signed had either played for Arians or he had knowledge of them from sometime in the past. Any time you work as a committee, the person with the most knowledge will normally lead an individual effort.

So in your opinion, Keim and Licht are strictly in an advisory role to Bruce Arians? Keim's responsibilities and GM are funcutally unchanged from last year, when he was Vice President of Player Personnel?

Also, do you believe that Rod Graves did a good job, and that he was scapegoated with Whisenhunt?

 

[Duckjake]

You are the one saying bad contracts. I never said that and I disagree with you. The proof is in the pudding. The contracts were written so they could be gotten out of easily. And just because you think they got rid of good players to get the CAP under control doesn't mean that is what actually happened. I think they planned ahead when the contracts were being written and they were written with this scenario in mind. A good organization plans ahead and I believe MB runs a good organization. So yes, great contracts were put in place by smart people.

See my edit. I knew what you were going to say and tried to get it added before you responded.

 

[40yearfan]

So in your opinion, Keim and Licht are strictly in an advisory role to Bruce Arians? Keim's responsibilities and GM are funcutally unchanged from last year, when he was Vice President of Player Personnel?

Also, do you believe that Rod Graves did a good job, and that he was scapegoated with Whisenhunt?

There you go talking in absolutes again. Did you read my post? Keim handles the draft and Arians handles the FA's. Keim does the contracts and makes the final decisions when there is a disagreement between the parties. Not hard to understand and the way a good business works.

Graves did the job he was supposed to do. After a period of time, MB decided to make a change and I agree with him it was time. Clean house and start anew.

 

[Duckjake]

So in your opinion, Keim and Licht are strictly in an advisory role to Bruce Arians? Keim's responsibilities and GM are funcutally unchanged from last year, when he was Vice President of Player Personnel?

Also, do you believe that Rod Graves did a good job, and that he was scapegoated with Whisenhunt?

40 year is probably the only person on the Planet who thinks the contracts given to Kevin Kolb and Stewart Bradley and Adam Snyder were smart deals.

 

[40yearfan]

The mess people have been talking about includes having to release talented players because they were signed to bad contracts. Obviously Michael Bidwill didn't agree with you and fired Graves.

So is it your opinion that Michael Bidwill knew all along that there was a possibility the contracts were bad and that'd they'd have to ditch most of them and planned for it in advance? I doubt it. Especially when he fired the guys responsible for the planning. Just last year you were saying they were great contracts put in place by smart business people. I just can't see an owner a year or two previously thinking that if they need cap space in the future they can just release their starting QB, #1 RB, and #1 and #2 Safeties. Remember these contracts were done before last season's debacle.

It doesn't make any difference. You always leave yourself wiggle room and plan for any eventuallity. I know it is hard for you to understand, but you have to remember these are professional people who have done this for a number of years, not some guys on a football board. They spend 52 weeks a year living this job.

 

[Duckjake]

There you go talking in absolutes again. Did you read my post? Keim handles the draft and Arians handles the FA's. Keim does the contracts and makes the final decisions when there is a disagreement between the parties. Not hard to understand and the way a good business works.

Graves did the job he was supposed to do. After a period of time, MB decided to make a change and I agree with him it was time. Clean house and start anew.

Yeah right, Ken Whisenhunt decided how much to pay each player and all Graves did was the legal work.

Overpaying for employees is not how a good business works.

 

[40yearfan]

Yeah right, Ken Whisenhunt decided how much to pay each player and all Graves did was the legal work.

Overpaying for employees is not how a good business works.

And you knew they were being overpaid when the contracts were written. Right. Ain't hindsight wonderful.

 

[Duckjake]

It doesn't make any difference. You always leave yourself wiggle room and plan for any eventuallity. I know it is hard for you to understand, but you have to remember these are professional people who have done this for a number of years, not some guys on a football board. They spend 52 weeks a year living this job.

You as usual just don't get it. A well run NFL team does not go 5-11 or 4-12 for half of the 25 years they've been in a city and have to completely rebuild their roster every 3 years because of the bad decisions they made.

Their planning for the future in 2009 really was well done wasn't it. 18-30 and a team so bad last season they had to rebuild it.

One thing you've never understood is that these guys aren't the rocket scientists you make them out to be. That's why a quarter of the coaches in the NFL get fired nearly every year and they miss on half the guys they draft or sign as Free Agents.

I guess it is easy for the Cards to plan for any eventuality when the only outcome is double digit losses.