Knicks & Suns Trade Q for KT

[Chaplin]

That's not what I'm saying - I'd much rather have Thomas than Nene right now - but big man run on their potential for YEARS - Nene's only going into his 4th year and people are so hungry for bigs that they'll continue waiting on potential even when it seems irrational. I mean look at the deals Calvin Booth, Darius Miles, Adonal Foyle and likely Steven Hunter got or will get. No one wants to be Portland and give up a Jermaine O'Neal.

His "uspide" might almost be used up - but I bet it's still more salivating to most teams (right or wrong) than Kurt Thomas.

Booth, Miles, Foyle and Hunter are not exactly the kind of guys you want to compare to Nene.

And you're making a case against your arguement. If someone wants to overpay Nene for potential that probably doesn't have a great chance of being realized, that's great, just make sure it isn't the Phoenix Suns paying it.

 

[elindholm]

B-Dogg, unfortunately that article is from at least eight hours ago.

 

[Joe Mama]

Disagree there--Nene's upside is almost all used up. He'll be nothing more than servicable in the future. He's in a system where he should be flourishing, but isn't. You can only blame the high altitude for so long...

I agree. I wouldn't trade Quentin Richardson for Nene straight up. Despite the difference in age I would much rather have Kurt Thomas.

Look, Nene is seriously overrated on this message board. And this is coming from someone who wanted the Phoenix Suns to draft him a couple years ago. Nene was a bust. He is a very average frontcourt player. He might be big, but he's no better than Kurt Thomas defensively. Kurt Thomas averaged 14 rebounds per 48 minutes. Nene averaged 11.8 rebounds per 48 minutes.

Yeah, but Nene is surely a better shot blocker, right? He averaged just 1.8 blocks per 48 minutes. Kurt Thomas averaged 1.3. People have been complaining that Kurt Thomas fouls too much. He did average 5.2 fouls per 48 minutes, but Nene averaged 6.1.

It's not all about basic statistics though. Nene has absolutely no game outside the paint. He averaged about 30% shooting jump shots last year and about the same in the low post. The only area of his game he was really affected and was making cuts to the basket (basically someone else created the shot), slam dunks in transition, and put backs from offensive rebounds.

I would rather have Hunter than Nene at this point. He has as much offensive game, and he's only a very slight drop-off in rebounds.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Now if Denver came and said they really wanted the #21, I'd say give us Nene, we'll give you the #21. That's a fair trade.

Like Joe says, Nene is WAY overrated. Q, Voskuhl AND a draft pick for Nene? Voskuhl and a future pick, maybe...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Booth, Miles, Foyle and Hunter are not exactly the kind of guys you want to compare to Nene.

And you're making a case against your arguement. If someone wants to overpay Nene for potential that probably doesn't have a great chance of being realized, that's great, just make sure it isn't the Phoenix Suns paying it.

I'm not making a case against my argument because I'm not saying the Suns should trade for him. I merely saying that I think most NBA GMs don't think his value isn't as low as you think - as evidenced by the stupid contracts given out to big men every year who have done even less than he has, nor ever was deemed to be as talented in the first place. Your argument was that Nene has almost zero value now - or something to that effect - when in reality, in the NBA, big guys - good or bad - are always valued higher than they should be.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm not making a case against my argument because I'm not saying the Suns should trade for him. I merely saying that I think most NBA GMs don't think his value isn't as low as you think - as evidenced by the stupid contracts given out to big men every year who have done even less than he has, nor ever was deemed to be as talented in the first place.

Well, ok, I will concede that monitarily, his value may be higher than "normal", but basketball and talent-wise, his value is merely average, IMO. And I hope that our management goes by that, rather than overpaying just to have a marginal big man.

 

[playstation]

If you're going to compare these 2 players shooting percentage you need to factor in 3 point field goals.

33% from the 3 point line is the same as 50% from the 2 point line.
Q's adjusted shooting percentage was 50% for the year.

Thomas made only 2 of 4 3 point attempts all year so his shooting percentage for the year is still 48%.

This is why the Suns centered their offense aroung the 3 ball.

I don't know if this is a great move or not but the shooting percentage comparison is not a good one.

that isn't an adequete comparison either. 2 things: 1 is consistency, 2 is rebounds.
point 1 - a guy that shoots 48% every night is imo more valuable than a guy that gets 25% or 75%, depending on the night.

point 2 - if you shoot a lot of 3's, you have a lot of long rebounds that lead to fast breaks for the opposition. missed 2's don't do nearly as much on that end. in fact, this is the basis for the suns offense: make em shoot long jumpers, then run when they miss. so, if i have 2 players and the only difference between them is that one shoots a lot of 3's and the other a lot of 2's (with the same adjusted fg%), I take the 2's, because of the rebounds, and probably the consistency as well.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

I am begining to visualize Kurt Thomas as what Antionio McDyess provided Amare with at the end of 2004. That team was beginning to have success and what ever D'A had drawn up for that lineup now can be used with KT. If Thomas is as good as jumpshot as Dice this could be a good move, I just don't remember him being that consistent with the 15 foot range.

Even if Kurt Thomas's jumpshot is average it's a decent move it's not like they are bringing Kurt Thomas in here to boost scoring.

Also that line up in 2003-2004 is vasty differnt in that the same young players then are better now and play the game differntly and are used differntly than they used to be.

 

[Chaplin]

point 2 - if you shoot a lot of 3's, you have a lot of long rebounds that lead to fast breaks for the opposition. missed 2's don't do nearly as much on that end. in fact, this is the basis for the suns offense: make em shoot long jumpers, then run when they miss. so, if i have 2 players and the only difference between them is that one shoots a lot of 3's and the other a lot of 2's (with the same adjusted fg%), I take the 2's, because of the rebounds, and probably the consistency as well.

I think this point may describe our team to a tee, at least right now and if we have acquired Kurt Thomas.

 

[fordronken]

By the way, what would the Nuggets do witih three consecutive late first round picks?

 

[coloradosun]

If we really wanted someone to replace Q's 3pt shots, it looks like Allan Houston is going to be waived by the Knicks when they use a one time exeception to avoid the luxury tax under the new CBA. I know he has got arthritic knees but if he is coming off the bench like Brent Barry, I would sign him on a make a make good contract. If any player in the league was overpaid it was Houston (19M), he doesn't need a big contract.

 

[Chaplin]

If we really wanted someone to replace Q's 3pt shots, it looks like Allan Houston is going to be waived by the Knicks when they use a one time exeception to avoid the luxury tax under the new CBA. I know he has got arthritic knees but if he is coming off the bench like Brent Barry, I would sign him on a make a make good contract. If any player in the league was overpaid it was Houston (19M), he doesn't need a big contract.

LOL, I was just WAITING for someone to bring him up.

And... NO.

 

[Mainstreet]

I couldn't stay away long.

Reportedly the trade has hit a technical snag which is being worked out.

See link: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=43527

The technical snag is probably just because the rumors are flying but the article does not mention a #1 changing hands.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, ok, I will concede that monitarily, his value may be higher than "normal", but basketball and talent-wise, his value is merely average, IMO. And I hope that our management goes by that, rather than overpaying just to have a marginal big man.

I agree. Although the same probably could have been said about Jermaine O'Neal after his third year in Portland also. Regardless, I'd much rather have Thomas on our squad than Nene - he's the perfect compliment to Amare and Marion.

 

[Azlen]

Richardson's points-per-shot is probably slightly higher. (Anyone have the exact number?)

Neither of them took many free throw attempts this season so I won't take that into consideration. Q averaged 1.13 points per attempt and KT got 1.02. So at 10 attempts a game, Q is only 1 point better.

 

[Joe Mama]

If you're going to compare these 2 players shooting percentage you need to factor in 3 point field goals.

33% from the 3 point line is the same as 50% from the 2 point line.
Q's adjusted shooting percentage was 50% for the year.

Thomas made only 2 of 4 3 point attempts all year so his shooting percentage for the year is still 48%.

This is why the Suns centered their offense aroung the 3 ball.

I don't know if this is a great move or not but the shooting percentage comparison is not a good one.

That's right. I did not take that into consideration. The numbers I have access to are slightly different, but we have Q at 1 PPP and Kurt Thomas at 0.9 PPP. I would contend that if you put Kurt Thomas in the Phoenix Suns offense his PPP would go up.

I'm not making a case against my argument because I'm not saying the Suns should trade for him. I merely saying that I think most NBA GMs don't think his value isn't as low as you think - as evidenced by the stupid contracts given out to big men every year who have done even less than he has, nor ever was deemed to be as talented in the first place.

That's right. GM's around the NBA still probably would overvalue Nene. Being reported that Denver wanted Q, Barbosa, and a draft pick. I'd rather have Kurt Thomas despite the age differences.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

I agree. Although the same probably could have been said about Jermaine O'Neal after his third year in Portland also. Regardless, I'd much rather have Thomas on our squad than Nene - he's the perfect compliment to Amare and Marion.

You got me there, Cheese.

But do you honestly think that Nene has the potential to turn into a Jermaine O'Neal type of player? I don't think he does.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's right. GM's around the NBA still probably would overvalue Nene. Being reported that Denver wanted Q, Barbosa, and a draft pick. I'd rather have Kurt Thomas despite the age differences.

Joe Mama

I will be really bummed if this trade doesn't go down now. For the last two weeks, I've been trying to think of a guy who we could possibly get that would shor eup our D, yet still be an okay without busting up the core and Kurt Thomas never came to mind - probably because he's so blatantly obvious. He's perfect on this team. I really hope this goes down.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You got me there, Cheese.

But do you honestly think that Nene has the potential to turn into a Jermaine O'Neal type of player? I don't think he does.

No - but, who knows. When he's gotten minutes, he has produced decently. But I would be somewhat shocked if he ends up as good as an O'Neal - hell, after O'Neal's time in Portland, I'm still shocked he's as good as he is. I do think eventually he could be a decent starting big man, but I sure as hell don't want to risk breaking up our starting lineup at this point for that potential.

 

[coloradosun]

I agree. I wouldn't trade Quentin Richardson for Nene straight up. Despite the difference in age I would much rather have Kurt Thomas.

It's not all about basic statistics though. Nene has absolutely no game outside the paint. He averaged about 30% shooting jump shots last year and about the same in the low post. The only area of his game he was really affected and was making cuts to the basket (basically someone else created the shot), slam dunks in transition, and put backs from offensive rebounds.

I would rather have Hunter than Nene at this point. He has as much offensive game, and he's only a very slight drop-off in rebounds.

Joe Mama

Nene is probably better than what is available in the draft this year but that may be because he has two years under his belt. That is one reason I would consider trading for him.

Another reason is that he is still under his rookie contract, if he is a bust we don't have to match any offers if we do not want to retain him.

One deal that I had drawn up for Nene included Voshon Leonard, who has a 250,000 buy out in July on a 3.5M contract. Exercise that clause as soon as possible.

The Voshon portion of the deal would give us immediate cap flexibility to say sign SAR or Donyell Marshall. Trading for Nene would temporarily fill in the center positon if does not improve or permanently fills the position if he does contribute next season.

Kurt Thomas for Q straight up is good alternative.

 

[Mainstreet]

The East Valley Tribune link (as noted in my last post) has helped me deal with the potential trade better. I still, however, want a #1 from NY.

 

[Chapters]

So is this confirmed? Sorry, I really dont have faith in media.

 

[Mainstreet]

So is this confirmed? Sorry, I really dont have faith in media.

IMO, The East Valley Tribune is one of the more reliable sources.

 

[elindholm]

I will be really bummed if this trade doesn't go down now.

Unless, that is, the Suns are really getting ... Joe Smith!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I will be really bummed if this trade doesn't go down now.

Unless, that is, the Suns are really getting ... Joe Smith!

Ugh - you want to talk about STIFFS! This guymakes David Lee look like a monster.

Never understood your fascination about Joe Smith, Eric. I don't think he could provide the grit that is sorely needed on this club.