Kobe or Swift/Barry +@s

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
That has to do with part of it, however the spurs have been in a good financial situation and a very competitive team for the past 5 years I believe. Two of those contracts are only "bargain" contracts because they are still on the rookie pay scale. Almost every team in the league can claim a bargain contract that way. Want a real "bargain" look at Michael Redd making 3 mil a year, without increases till 2006 I believe.

Duncan's contract has been the biggest bargain in the league for each of the last 5 years. the Spurs' acumen isn't responsible for that.


Ginobili and Parker will both be looking for extensions in the next couple of years. I think the Spurs' front office is very good, but it will be interesting to see how they perform when the playing field levels a little bit.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Spurs were paying Robinson $20 million. They replaced or tried to replace him with a guy that goes for less than $6 million.

I'm not sure we would be calling them brilliant if they had actually won the Jason Kidd competition.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Duncan has a max contract. It is all that can be given to him.

About the extensions, that is exactly right. Them and the Pistons are the two teams that positioned themselves best to extend their players. Most notably Manu and Okur since they don't have bird rights for them.


That doesn't change the fact that the players are "two of the biggest bargains in the NBA".

Personally, I would take a large handful of players drafted in the last 3 years, still on rookie scale contracts over Manu and Parker (well maybe not as many for Manu )

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by slinslin
I am pretty damn sure that the Grizz don't have a team option.

MEM did have a team option (4th year option) on Swift's contract which they excersized.
Now they have the possiblity to make a qualifying offer to Swift which makes him a restricted FA.

Swift will be FA just like Martin and Richardson.

They all will become RFA's.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
The Spurs were paying Robinson $20 million.

Robinson's last year's salary was about 8 mil.

 

[Errntknght]

Happily, A and B are not our only choices. Heck, I didn't like the idea of paying Kobe huge bucks before JJ really started to shine. What I'm hoping for now is that we'll see enough of Lampe to have some idea whether he'll ever make a starting center. And that Zarko will recover enough to play pretty heavy minutes so we can see if he'll be a capable back up PF. Settling those questions would give us a lot clearer idea of who to go after and if it takes another year, then just sit on the money. I'd certainly plan on drafting a muscular 'big' this year, in any case.

 

[Joe Mama]

F-Dog, I just have to get my shot in real quick. Were you really serious about signing Okur for $11 million per season? I wouldn't give him over $6-7 million, and I'm not sure the Suns should commit that type of money to anybody short of a superstar this off-season.

I don't think the Phoenix Suns are going to make any bold moves this off-season. I think they will try to trade away Howard Eiseley. I think they'll try to get rid of Jahidi White's contract before this season's trade deadline. They'll probably try to get Vujanic over here. That they will concentrate on a good draft and developing their young players and their team chemistry.

If Lampe doesn't show much and assuming they don't draft a center who can help immediately, they may try to get a decent center for as little money as possible. I'm not sure that can really be done though.

Joe Mama

 

[Tank]

I could be seeing this wrong, but I think what he meant when he said sign Okur for 11 Mil was to have a contract similar to how Outlaws was structured. It could be like a 5-6 year 35 mil deal, just with the first year starting at 11 Mil and decreasing from there. I don't think that contracts can be structured like this under the new CBA though. Although if you could, it would be the ultimate way to steal RFA that don't have bird rights without over paying them.

 

[F-Dog]

I could be seeing this wrong, but I think what he meant when he said sign Okur for 11 Mil was to have a contract similar to how Outlaws was structured. It could be like a 5-6 year 35 mil deal, just with the first year starting at 11 Mil and decreasing from there.

Something like that, except I'm thinking it would stay about the same instead of decrease--6yr, $70m total. On second thought, maybe that's not so close to what you were thinking after all.

The important thing is to max out his first year--$10.9m IIRC. That way, the Pistons might not be able to match even if they manage to subtract Elden Campbell's contract from their cap.

F-Dog, I just have to get my shot in real quick. Were you really serious about signing Okur for $11 million per season? I wouldn't give him over $6-7 million, and I'm not sure the Suns should commit that type of money to anybody short of a superstar this off-season.

Dead serious, I'm afraid.


Of the two objections I'm getting--too much money and Okur won't be good enough--the money argument is the one that baffles me. Doesn't anybody notice that the three teams with a real shot at the championship happen to have the three best centers in the WC? Or that the only team in the East with any chance in the Finals has the best center in the East?

Jahidi White is a spot player making $5.5m, and I haven't seen anybody claim that he's criminally overpaid. Camby makes an attractive trade prospect at $7m, and his incentives start to kick in at 35 games played (joke). Dampier has dogged it for years, is scheduled to make $8m each of the next two years, and is planning to opt out because he knows he can get more money and years in the FA market.

How much has Jeff Foster been worth to the Pacers this year? $8m? $10m? There's a reason that Indy can cruise to the EC title with $18m in bad contracts on the bench, and it's not all J O'Neil.

Good centers make great money because of supply and demand. Certainly Phoenix can afford to spend $11m on a good center, since they have Amare locked in for under $15m, and the team's total budget (if they're winning) tops out at $50m. The Suns can especially afford to do this because the team has a history of developing guards through the draft.


Now, if you say that Okur isn't going to be that good, I can't argue so much. I'm no bird-dog scout, so I have to trust what I read and what I've learned watching similar situations play out.

One thing I do know is that developing a center from scratch (if he didn't start out as the obvious #1 overall pick) is a crapshoot. What are the chances that the Suns could develop a particular prospect to the point where he's as good as Okur is right now? Unless the prospect is Okafor, very low indeed.




Anyway, I'm sure I can't explain it better than that. I'm ready to move on to Voshon Lenard and Denver, and let the offseason play itself out when it happens.

I think I can trust the Suns' front office to do better than I would in any case.

 

[George O'Brien]

You make perfect sense. You're wrong, but you make perfect sense.

Jeff Foster signed a contract extension starting at $4.2 million next year. In the games against the Suns, I felt Foster had a bigger impact with his defense and rebounding than Okur did.

Okur is a very good offensive center who benefits from playing with a great defensive PF. Foster is a defensive center who benefits from playing with a great offensive PF.

The Suns have a great (or will soon be) offensive PF. Their need at center is a guy who can defend, block shots, rebound, and do the dirty work that Voskuhl is too small to handle and White too slow.

If all the Suns needed was an offensive threat at center, I suspect that Lampe would be starting tomorrow. Here is a guy that was drafted to play SF and is 7'0" 275 (maybe?). He is described as a great outside shooter and passer who can dribble between his legs. He needs to learn the offense, etc. but that is not what will keep him from playing. He is not ready to play defense.

Eddie Curry in Chicago is very good on offense, but he is constantly being criticised because of his lack of defense. Ilgauskas in Cleveland scores 14.1 ppg, 7.4 rpg, and hits 46.2% from the field. But no one thinks he is worth $14.6 million for next year because he can't play defense. Neither Chicago nor Cleveland are going to be anywhere near making the playoffs.

 

[Joe Mama]

The Phoenix Suns do want interworking that center, but they NEED someone who can knock down a few open shots, and catch and pass the ball. And that person should be big and tall enough to defend and rebound with other centers.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
The Phoenix Suns do want interworking that center, but they NEED someone who can knock down a few open shots, and catch and pass the ball. And that person should be big and tall enough to defend and rebound with other centers.

Joe Mama

I want it all too.

One of the issues that will effect how the Suns approach the draft is that the Suns offense requires the center to be able to move and score on pick and rolls if nothing else. White struggles because he does not move as well.

The tough part is that the centers (or should be ceners) who can do it all are Tim Duncan and..... (I'm thinking, I'm thinking)

Voskuhl is slowly developing the skills to be a competent offensive center for the Suns. He even showed he can hit a jump shot and is starting to catch the ball without fumbling it. He'd be even better if he didn't look so damn awkward that he refs always assume that he is fouling or charging on every play.

But Voskuhl may never be a better than medicore defender. He is not that tall and has relatively short arms. His hands are relatively small and he gets the ball knocked out of them. And most of all, he is not very strong for his size and is relatively light.

I keep hoping White will get into shape and develop his overall game, but I suspect he will be a career role player and nothing more.

As I've said on other threads, I have little doubt that Lampe will be able to score. With his shooting and passing, he could be a great high post center. But can he rebound and play defense?
My guess is that Lampe will be a spot player for the next few years as he develops physically, gets stronger, and learns how to play.

In a dream scenerio, Lampe would develop quickly, White would lose weight and become a power backup, and Voskuhl would learn enough court awareness that he was not called on charges when he gets the ball in the low post.

BUT, if this doens't happen, the biggest gap is defense. If Lampe and Voskuhl can score, my main concern would be someone who can play really good defense. I'd like him to be able score at least a little, but defense is the key to winning championships.

 

[devilalum]

The Suns need a 21rst Century version of Alvin Adams.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by devilalum
The Suns need a 21rst Century version of Alvin Adams.

Nah, too short.

 

[cly2tw]

It's quite interesting that, while talking about Suns future and the core for building about a championship team, nobody even mentions Marion, neither his talent nor his contract as if neither are relevant.

Assume Amare be our PF, Barbosa and Vujanic share the starting PG. If we can sign Kobe, we really need to let either Marion or JJ go if JJ is to command say 6-7 mil a year in the future. So, the question is which starting lineup at SF/SG do you guys prefer:

1. Kobe/JJ
2. Kobe/Marion
3. Marion/JJ

with Voskul-White-Lampe at center, Zarko the 6th man at SF/PF.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by cly2tw
It's quite interesting that, while talking about Suns future and the core for building about a championship team, nobody even mentions Marion, neither his talent nor his contract as if neither are relevant.

Assume Amare be our PF, Barbosa and Vujanic share the starting PG. If we can sign Kobe, we really need to let either Marion or JJ go if JJ is to command say 6-7 mil a year in the future. So, the question is which starting lineup at SF/SG do you guys prefer:

1. Kobe/JJ
2. Kobe/Marion
3. Marion/JJ

with Voskul-White-Lampe at center, Zarko the 6th man at SF/PF.

Timing is everything. JJ will be a restricted free agent in 2005 with a qualifying offer of $3.2 million. He might get some attention, but I'm guessing he will get a Maggette type offer at most ($5.4 million) which the Suns would match. If Kobe is in the free agency market in 2005, the Suns would need to unload Marion to have enough cap space so option #2 is not even feasible.

Option #1 is not impossible, but it would be tight even if the Suns unloaded Marion because Kobe is already making $3 million more than Marion. If the Suns get hit with having to match on JJ and have added Vujanic and the draft picks of 2004 and 2005, it gets tight even if they do off load Eisley.

Give me all your assumptions and I'll run a spreadsheet.

 

[cly2tw]

Assume JJ is getting Maggette type contract and we sign Kobe for 14mil next season, our core of Amare/Kobe/JJ are gonna make

1.8/14/2 mil in 04/05
2/15/6 mil in 05/06
10/16/6 in 06/07 etc.

Assume we sign Zarko, Barbosa, Vujanic to average of 4 mil each. With the core, it'd be total of 44-46 mil commited to the 6 players above in 07/08. With these talent amassed here, the team could well sustain a payroll of 56 mil which leaves 10-12 mil for the center position and other role players. I like this composition. All this, we don't need Marion and the picks yet! So, if people like the scenario above, we should try to ship off Marion with some of our picks for cap space.

In any way, Kobe is definitely worth much more than Marion plus the 3 mil. more he earns!

 

[NugzFan]

Originally posted by arthurracoon
But We already have a superstar in the making, a star, and another star in the making. We need 1 more star/almost star at the C position.

who?

 

[Errntknght]

Here's an interesting thought - and this may be of more importance than whether Kobe is worth 3+million more than Marion - what does it do to the team if Amare doesn't want to play primarily in the low post? He's been moving out from the basket more and more and not looking too bad doing it. From his point of view, why should he take a pounding down low night after night if he can score just as well starting out at fifteen feet. He is tough but he isn't that durable so it might be smart for him to drive just enough to keep people from playing him tight.

That makes it awkward to have a high post center, especially with a SF who likes to play on the perimeter. Wouldn't it be ironic if Lampe were to be the perfect high post center and we need a banger down low...

 

[cly2tw]

I'd be disappointed if Amare is to become a Webber clone, since this type of player is less successful in the playoff than a true banger who can draw constant double teams to open the space for others. But the uncertainty as to what Amare will really become makes it even more evident that we need to sign a true franchise player in Kobe first, who has a chance to fight Jordan for the best player in NBA alltime. It'd be foolish to not sign him because we already have Marion at the max and JJ expecting relatively big money.

Also, one reason Amare wants to play more on the parameter is because the traffic he'd attract staying downlow. But with a super Kobe, the primary focus of the defense would be on Kobe making his life in the low post much easier! So, one more reason to sign Kobe.

 

[cly2tw]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/0120kobe.html



Bryant was booed and heckled during a recent game in Denver, but fans have generally cheered him during games around the country. He led the All-Star balloting in the NBA's Western Conference.

"It's a sign that America is not believing he's guilty," Fahrenholtz said.

 

[SirStefan32]

To me this is a simple question- if you can sign Kobe, you go ahead and sign him. Forget about Swift, Barry, or anybody else.

 

[George O'Brien]

Right now I'm not sure who I'd prefer, Marion who is below his career averages on shooting or Kobe who has re-injured his shoulder for the second time and was well below his career average before the injury. .

As I have said before, I don't think anything will happen this summer. Kobe will stay with the Lakers for one more year assuming he does not get convicted. He has somehow managed to live with Shaq for a while and I'm not convinced he will take a big cut in pay to go to a team that is not ready to go to finals.

Trying to figuure out what the team will look like after next season seems awfully speculative. Some of the unknowns include:

Is JJ for real?

Will Shawn's shooting return to his 2002-03 level?

Will Amare be the next Malone or the next Weber?

Will Lampe be a full fledged starting center or just a 15 minute a game role player?

After next season the answers to these questions should be clear or at least clearer. At that point, deciding about Kobe or some other free agent will be more than mere speculation.

 

[Joe Mama]

I agree George. I've been saying since a little bit after the trade that I don't think Kobe Bryant will end up opting out of his contract.

Joe Mama

 

[SirStefan32]

Well, I didn't say he will opt out, but if he does, the Suns have an obligation to go after him.