IF we get Kobe

[scotsman13]

Whether he goes to Phoenix or stays in LA, it will be HIS team. There's no arguing that (unless your Scotsman who thinks for some reason that it is Amare's team ONLY).

no chaplin you are missing the point.
first you dont believe that the suns have a superstar. and i believe you are wrong. amare is a superstar in all but name now. free throws is one of the best ways to spot superstars. amare gets more then tmac and almost as many as kobe. amare sit 6 on free throws attemped and made per 48 mins.he went to the line 10.31 only .15 less then kobe per 48 mins. this was on top of amare not getting as many touches when marbury was here.

the other reason is how basketball is played successfully. when you have a post player, the ball goes inside first and then to the outside if they double. that way you get the best shots open from the outside and you also get the inside people in foul trouble so that others can drive to the basket better. that means that amare will get most of the touches not kobe. now if you want to see kobe get shipped out of phoenix as fast as frances is in houton then run it the otherway. kobe isnt going like taking second place to amare but that is the way that the game is played to be successful. kobe believes he can do it all, guess what? he cant as we have seen when shaq was out and more importantly during the finials when kobe shot 33%. if you dont think that other teams are going to learn from what the pistons did to kobe during the finails and how a team with no superstars beat the favorite to win it all then you have another thing coming. kobe is a self centered player who doesnt care about his team so much as he cares about how everyone else sees him.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

At least you stick to your guns Scotsman.

Personally, I think Amare will be one of the top players with in the next 2 or 3 years. That being said, the Suns were in the lottery again this past season. They have a rare chance to SIGNIFICANTLY add talent to their team.

Kobe Bryant is the best talent available. You have to sign him. Perhaps if this was a 50 win team, you could argue about chemestry and messing with a good thing. However, this is a sub 30 win team. Chemestry doesn't matter at this point.

Plus, like others have said, if Kobe doesn't work out, trade him. He will be locked up for many years and you know teams will throw their best players at us for the chance to get him.

 

[coloradosun]

The Lakers are the Yankees of the NBA, any player that wants a high profile town to play in it would be LA. The Lakers would be able to any FA they want if Shaq is gone. In fact they could be the biggest winner this summer with a lot FA ending up. I could see this lineup next year

Nash (FA sign and trade with Dallas)
Stackhouse (trade with Dallas)
Kobe
Kenyon Martin (trade with NJ or NJ can't match offer)
Dampier

That's a damn good lineup.
They make the trade with Dallas and do a sign and trade with NJ for Martin. NJ is cutting costs and if they can't trade Kidd or Kittles they can't resign Martin.

And Slin Slin

Your telling me that Kobe has more allegiance to Colangelo than Buss, if Kobe wants D'Antoni why does D'Antoni quit and go sign with the Lakers. That seems more likely than Kobe trading places.

 

[playstation]

slinslin - go back and read the posts you have made, and try to read them from an objective fashion.

you say that the difference in money is "only" 10-15 million dollars (of course you conveniently forget the 7th guaranteed year which will be another $20M, and anytime you walk away from guaranteed money, you're taking a risk). the suns can offer 6yrs/102M, lakers: 7yrs/136M, i've done the math, i know that 34M of guaranteed money is nothing to sneeze at, even if you're kobe bryant.

then you start talking about how kobe had dinner with colangelo and thinks highly of the suns in general and some specific personnel. are you serious? this in the face of kobe's direct quote when asked what he thought about d'antoni: "i'm familiar with him. i've heard his name" that doesn't sound like best friends to me. you're seeking to convince me kobe is coming because he spent a few extra minutes joking on the suns bench during a game in february?

here's the facts as i see them, kobe did not want to play for shaq and phil. he realized the best way to make them leave was to leverage the threat of his leaving, so he did, and they left. assuming shaq is gone, kobe used his power perfectly, and signs right back with the lakers. very shrewd if you ask me, in fact he had me going a bit there. he hasn't talked about the suns any more than any other organization that he has been asked about (in another ploy to keep his options open, thus making the lakers think he may actually leave if his terms aren't met)

of course if shaq is not traded (and soon, imo), we may have a chance yet.

 

[playstation]

coloradosun - youre statement is rediculous. after trading shaq, they'll receive the same amount back in salary, and even if they didn't, they'd still be over the cap. however, i've seen many a decent player come to play for the MLE, and all kobe needs is some decent players, he'll already have his core from the shaq trade (assuming nowitzki is part of the package).

 

[Chaplin]

The Lakers are the Yankees of the NBA, any player that wants a high profile town to play in it would be LA. The Lakers would be able to any FA they want if Shaq is gone. In fact they could be the biggest winner this summer with a lot FA ending up. I could see this lineup next year

Nash (FA sign and trade with Dallas)
Stackhouse (trade with Dallas)
Kobe
Kenyon Martin (trade with NJ or NJ can't match offer)
Dampier

That's a damn good lineup.
They make the trade with Dallas and do a sign and trade with NJ for Martin. NJ is cutting costs and if they can't trade Kidd or Kittles they can't resign Martin.

Won't happen.

One, the Lakers won't trade Shaq to Dallas unless Dirk is included. That is on the record. Secondly, who do you think they'd be able to trade for Kenyon Martin? They'll have to, because even without Shaq, they are still over the cap, so they can't sign him.

You sound very enthusiastic with your opinions, but please try to research a little bit about what is actually possible--it can only help you in the future.

 

[Chaplin]

slinslin - go back and read the posts you have made, and try to read them from an objective fashion.

you say that the difference in money is "only" 10-15 million dollars (of course you conveniently forget the 7th guaranteed year which will be another $20M, and anytime you walk away from guaranteed money, you're taking a risk). the suns can offer 6yrs/102M, lakers: 7yrs/136M, i've done the math, i know that 34M of guaranteed money is nothing to sneeze at, even if you're kobe bryant.

then you start talking about how kobe had dinner with colangelo and thinks highly of the suns in general and some specific personnel. are you serious? this in the face of kobe's direct quote when asked what he thought about d'antoni: "i'm familiar with him. i've heard his name" that doesn't sound like best friends to me. you're seeking to convince me kobe is coming because he spent a few extra minutes joking on the suns bench during a game in february?

here's the facts as i see them, kobe did not want to play for shaq and phil. he realized the best way to make them leave was to leverage the threat of his leaving, so he did, and they left. assuming shaq is gone, kobe used his power perfectly, and signs right back with the lakers. very shrewd if you ask me, in fact he had me going a bit there. he hasn't talked about the suns any more than any other organization that he has been asked about (in another ploy to keep his options open, thus making the lakers think he may actually leave if his terms aren't met)

of course if shaq is not traded (and soon, imo), we may have a chance yet.

Don't forget cost of living and taxes in California. Right now in LA I live in a one bedroom apartment going for 850 bucks a month--and that's pretty good for my area. If I lived in Phoenix and made the exact same amount of money, I could easily afford a 4 bedroom house. We're talking about a lot of money, but then you have to figure in the taxes, which must be astronomical for someone making that much money.

 

[coloradosun]

coloradosun - youre statement is rediculous. after trading shaq, they'll receive the same amount back in salary, and even if they didn't, they'd still be over the cap. however, i've seen many a decent player come to play for the MLE, and all kobe needs is some decent players, he'll already have his core from the shaq trade (assuming nowitzki is part of the package).

I've made a lot of statements, which one?

 

[Chaplin]

no chaplin you are missing the point.
first you dont believe that the suns have a superstar. and i believe you are wrong. amare is a superstar in all but name now. free throws is one of the best ways to spot superstars. amare gets more then tmac and almost as many as kobe. amare sit 6 on free throws attemped and made per 48 mins.he went to the line 10.31 only .15 less then kobe per 48 mins. this was on top of amare not getting as many touches when marbury was here.

I have no doubt that Amare will become a superstar, but I have a hard time going along with your assertions when you use free throw attempts as your main gauge.

Amare Stoudemire is NOT a superstar right now. There are only at most 5 superstars in the league--Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq and... well, maybe only 4. Amare is not part of that group. Yet.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The Lakers are the Yankees of the NBA, any player that wants a high profile town to play in it would be LA. The Lakers would be able to any FA they want if Shaq is gone. In fact they could be the biggest winner this summer with a lot FA ending up. I could see this lineup next year

Nash (FA sign and trade with Dallas)
Stackhouse (trade with Dallas)
Kobe
Kenyon Martin (trade with NJ or NJ can't match offer)
Dampier

That's a damn good lineup.
They make the trade with Dallas and do a sign and trade with NJ for Martin. NJ is cutting costs and if they can't trade Kidd or Kittles they can't resign Martin.

And Slin Slin

Your telling me that Kobe has more allegiance to Colangelo than Buss, if Kobe wants D'Antoni why does D'Antoni quit and go sign with the Lakers. That seems more likely than Kobe trading places.

Do you have any concept of how the CBA works? Honest question, since most things I have read in your posts have zero possibility of happening.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

then you start talking about how kobe had dinner with colangelo and thinks highly of the suns in general and some specific personnel. are you serious? this in the face of kobe's direct quote when asked what he thought about d'antoni: "i'm familiar with him. i've heard his name" that doesn't sound like best friends to me.

That was a sarcastic response. If you saw the interview, it was obvious.

Kobe has known Mike for most of his life. His father and D'antoni are friends, after playing in the Italian league.

Kobe does NOT wear #8 because of Mike. He wears it because one of his old numbers was something like 134, and he just added all the numbers up.

The relationship between Kobe and Mike exists, but it is highly overstated very often IMO.

 

[Chaplin]

That was a sarcastic response. If you saw the interview, it was obvious.

Kobe has known Mike for most of his life. His father and D'antoni are friends, after playing in the Italian league.

Kobe does NOT wear #8 because of Mike. He wears it because one of his old numbers was something like 134, and he just added all the numbers up.

The relationship between Kobe and Mike exists, but it is highly overstated very often IMO.

There are two possibilities as to why Kobe wears #8, either one is valid, but neither one has been proven.

 

[slinslin]

then you start talking about how kobe had dinner with colangelo and thinks highly of the suns in general and some specific personnel. are you serious? this in the face of kobe's direct quote when asked what he thought about d'antoni: "i'm familiar with him. i've heard his name" that doesn't sound like best friends to me. you're seeking to convince me kobe is coming because he spent a few extra minutes joking on the suns bench during a game in february?

What else would Kobe say during last season? Yes I am gonna quit and definately sign somewhere else?

 

[slinslin]

And Slin Slin

Your telling me that Kobe has more allegiance to Colangelo than Buss, if Kobe wants D'Antoni why does D'Antoni quit and go sign with the Lakers. That seems more likely than Kobe trading places.

You sound like one of those Lakers fans and on top of it you have absolutely no idea how the CBA works.

 

[Goldfield]

Marbury didn't have to share the spotlight with Amare? Marbury knew oh too well that Amare would become the star of this team.

To summarize some things that were said before.

The money difference is only about 10-15M$ if you adjust the contracts to the same length. That is not even counting the higher taxes in California.

Kobe and his wife are rumored to divorce after the trial. They say she already hired a lawyer and wants to cash in on his new contract. In that case the total difference becomes even smaller.

Kobe is friends with the D'Antoni and knows him since he is a young boy. He wears the #8, the same numer D'Antoni, an italian league legend, was wearing in Italy when Kobe lived there.

Kobe's father is friends with D'Antoni as well and already said he would like his son to play for the Suns.

Before Kobe was drafted he worked out for the Suns. Him and his parents went to dinner with Colangelo before the draft. Kobe already agreed he would play for them.
It was only spoiled because the Lakers worked out a trade with Charlotte to get 2 spots ahead of the Suns.

If Kobe goes to Phoenix he knows he can take all the credit for turning around the team like Jason Kidd did in New Jersey and becomes immediately the frontrunner for MVP.

Even if the Lakers can trade Shaq they won't be able to put as much talent around Kobe as Kobe would have in Phoenix with Amare, Marion, Johnson, Barbosa...

If you were at the last Lakers-Suns game in Phoenix you would probably agree that there is a good chance.
When the teams came back on the floor after halftime Kobe was for minutes at the Suns bench joking with and hugging D'Antoni.

He almost forgot to go back to the Lakers bench when the quarter started. He had to sprint down the whole court.

Amare has a lot of respect for Kobe. He said Kobe was the player who impressed him the most during his rookie season.
Kobe has a lot or respect for Amare. He said Amare was hands down the rookie of the year and it wasn't even close.

I hope that's enough indications for starters.

While there is definately a good chance he remains in LA there is a very good chance he signs with Phoenix as well. Lakers fans are underestimating that chance because most Lakers fans are very ignorant.

It's Phoenix or Lakers.

Wow... Are you a Lawyer...?

I "thought" we had a very good chance of getting Kobe till Phill got the boot, and the Trade of shaq stuff stared. Now I think him staying in LA is ALOT better that they were.


After reading your post, most of the stuff I knew, but the money difference is very small... Very interesting.


****The money difference is only about 10-15M$ if you adjust the contracts to the same length. That is not even counting the higher taxes in California.****

-That is a great fact...

 

[scotsman13]

Kobe Bryant is the best talent available. You have to sign him. Perhaps if this was a 50 win team, you could argue about chemestry and messing with a good thing. However, this is a sub 30 win team. Chemestry doesn't matter at this point.

thanks graham

i am not questioning that he is the best talent player out there. what i do question is, he the best answer to turning this team around? i believe that this team will be better off by adding nash and a better center and addressing the weakness of this team then by signing kobe.

last year before the start of the season everyone believe this team was going to go somewhere after their playoff run against the spurs. what happened? why did the suns come out of the gate and fall so badly from the start of the season? even averaging over 8 assist a game marbury still didnt share control of the ball. passing the ball doesnt mean that he give up control. i believe we will face a lot of these same problems with kobe or tmac. both of them believe that they are the ones that should have the ball in there hands all the time.

 

[slinslin]

Stephon Marbury and Kobe Bryant are just about as similiar players as Shaquille O'Neal and Earl Boykins. *sarcasm

Kobe Bryant alone is twice as good as Stephon Marbury. You just need one short look at their track record.

And tell me who averaged the most assists on the Lakers? Right Kobe and he also averaged the most assists to Shaq.

 

[playstation]

with respect to tax rates, la's highest bracket is 9.3%, phoenix is 5.04%.

LA offering 136 in 7 yrs (112 in first 6 yrs) and phoenix offering 102 in 6 yrs.

over the first 6 years of the contract, kobe will pay about 4.1M in az state taxes w/ suns, and pay 10.4M in state taxes w/ lakers, thus lowering the difference to about 4M. HOWEVER, that 7th guaranteed year blows all that out of the water.

the questions come to how important is one more guaranteed year (and 24M extra) to kobe? how important is the prestige of playing for the lakers to kobe? how important is his wife's opinion? i think those are the things that could keep us from getting him.

slinslin - for all your arguments, you fail to mention the other side of the coin. people around the league commonly refer to kobe and corey magette as best friends, you think that might play in at all? you talk about a ready made team, maggette, brand, livingston, and kaman all locked into long term deals? i mean, i know the donald is a loser, but his players are all locked into deals anyways, so its not like he'd have to do much to keep them around. rumor has it kobe wants to build a team from scratch. if you can make the clippers respectable, you'll get some serious kudos.

i've said this before, i hope you're right and i'm wrong. in fact, i hope everything i've written here is totally crap. i'd love for kobe to come here, but as an objective person looking at the facts would not bet on his coming here unless vegas gave me 10:1 odds.

 

[Chaplin]

with respect to tax rates, la's highest bracket is 9.3%, phoenix is 5.04%.

LA offering 136 in 7 yrs (112 in first 6 yrs) and phoenix offering 102 in 6 yrs.

over the first 6 years of the contract, kobe will pay about 4.1M in az state taxes w/ suns, and pay 10.4M in state taxes w/ lakers, thus lowering the difference to about 4M. HOWEVER, that 7th guaranteed year blows all that out of the water.

the questions come to how important is one more guaranteed year (and 24M extra) to kobe? how important is the prestige of playing for the lakers to kobe? how important is his wife's opinion? i think those are the things that could keep us from getting him.

slinslin - for all your arguments, you fail to mention the other side of the coin. people around the league commonly refer to kobe and corey magette as best friends, you think that might play in at all? you talk about a ready made team, maggette, brand, livingston, and kaman all locked into long term deals? i mean, i know the donald is a loser, but his players are all locked into deals anyways, so its not like he'd have to do much to keep them around. rumor has it kobe wants to build a team from scratch. if you can make the clippers respectable, you'll get some serious kudos.

i've said this before, i hope you're right and i'm wrong. in fact, i hope everything i've written here is totally crap. i'd love for kobe to come here, but as an objective person looking at the facts would not bet on his coming here unless vegas gave me 10:1 odds.

What about if he signs with us, and in his 5th year with us we decide to give him an extension ourselves? What happens to that extra year? People consistently look at the here and now, but in 2009, he'll probably be able to get MORE, just due to inflation, in 7 years than now.

 

[slinslin]

the questions come to how important is one more guaranteed year (and 24M extra) to kobe? how important is the prestige of playing for the lakers to kobe? how important is his wife's opinion? i think those are the things that could keep us from getting him.

If money or financial security are the main problems. Why the heck did he risk playing a full year before signing a new contract when he could have had the identical contract with 6yrs on it 1 year before he becomes FA?

And his wife's opinion?
I could go to a pretty low level and say Kobe didn't exactly care about her opinion when he comitted adultery.

They are divorcing anyway it looks like.

Prestige of playing for the Lakers? Prestige comes from winning not playing on Lakers.

He already got his prestige. Whatever he does in LA could never get him the attention if he leads the Suns to one of the biggest turnarounds in league history.
Jason Kidd was hardly a MVP candidate until the league took notice when he helped turn around the Nets.

 

[playstation]

its not the money in the 7th year that matters, its the guarantee that it will be there. over the next 4 years, its impossible to tell what will happen, and that may weigh on kobe's mind, i know it would weigh on mine.

slinslin - i don't understand what you're saying there. kobe was never in an unsecure position this year. if he got injured, he didn't HAVE to opt out. remember, he only just filed last week. he could have come back next year, proved himself, and been alright. also, five years from now he'll be 31, so his risk of injury may potentially increase (13 years of wear and tear on joints). also, he may not have cared about his wife when he cheated on her, but he sure as hell cared when he spend $4M on a ring for her to prove how sorry he was. i'm just saying it could come into play. also, i agree winning is better than playing for the lakers, but we're talking about kobe here. you really think he believes any team he plays for will not win?

 

[slinslin]

its not the money in the 7th year that matters, its the guarantee that it will be there. over the next 4 years, its impossible to tell what will happen, and that may weigh on kobe's mind, i know it would weigh on mine.

slinslin - i don't understand what you're saying there. kobe was never in an unsecure position this year. if he got injured, he didn't HAVE to opt out. remember, he only just filed last week. he could have come back next year, proved himself, and been alright. also, five years from now he'll be 31, so his risk of injury may potentially increase (13 years of wear and tear on joints). also, he may not have cared about his wife when he cheated on her, but he sure as hell cared when he spend $4M on a ring for her to prove how sorry he was. i'm just saying it could come into play. also, i agree winning is better than playing for the lakers, but we're talking about kobe here. you really think he believes any team he plays for will not win?

So he doesn't opt out? That leaves him with the risk of ending up with what 2 years/30m$ left instead of 6yrs/112M$ he could have gotten in an extension?
That risk looks a little bigger than turning down a 7yrs/136M$ for a 6yrs/102M$ contract.

Name one star who turned down a max extension just because he wants to test the free agent market and come back and sign the same deal with 1 more year on it.

The argument that Kobe would be 31 at the end of that contract is moot. He would probably have an opt out clause after 4 years or so to get a new contract or an extension at some point.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I agree with Slin. The extra guaranteed year most likely won't even come into effect. Assuming Kobe continues his play anywhere near his current level, he will surely opt out of his deal in 4-5 years (depending on where he signs) and re up on a new contract.

I would say the chances that Kobe Bryant plays for the last year in his next deal are half of the chances he joins the suns this summer.

 

[playstation]

name one star who loved the city he played in but didn't like the people he had to deal with. are you unable to see at all the possibility that this whole thing was a power play on his part? would you not admit that there is at least a possibility (imo a probability) that this whole thing happened because he wanted everything on his terms, and the only way he'd get it is if he threatened to leave?

all i'm saying is that if i'm kobe bryant, i'm staying in LA.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Kobe took a huge risk on not signing the extension.

He had just come off of shoulder surgey, he had a rape trial over his head. If that didn't scare him into locking up for the long term, I highly doubt the possibility of a career ending injury would.