Kobe pours in 81!

[Louis]

Check out Kobe's daughter giving the bird last night.

You must be registered for see images

 

[LakeShowMan]

I hope you're not referring to me, because I've said until I'm blue in the face that it was an amazing performance and that Kobe is an amazing player. But being an amazing player does not make him a good teammate.

No I am not talking to anyone in particular. Just in the sense that there are some performances that don't need qualifiers, or to be devalued. I saw where you said the game was incredible and noticed that your arguements stemed from an arguement of the place of the team in the heirarchy of the league.

Don't worry Chap, I feel comfortable enough to call you out personally if you need it.

 

[Chaplin]

No I am not talking to anyone in particular. Just in the sense that there are some performances that don't need qualifiers, or to be devalued. I saw where you said the game was incredible and noticed that your arguements stemed from an arguement of the place of the team in the heirarchy of the league.

Don't worry Chap, I feel comfortable enough to call you out personally if you need it.

THAT'S a relief. Wait.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Utah is on a roll after finally getting Kiralenko off IR. Minnesota is starting to play the best ball it's played after an agonizingly slow start to their season. LA may have an easier schedule after the all-star break, but how many more 81 point games does Kobe have in him this season to get more W's? LA hasn't exactly been undefeated in this scoring binge Kobe's been on. Heck, we could have Amare score 80 points a night just constantly feeding him the ball and looking for noone else to score. I don't think we'd win many games doing it. To have Phil Jackson thinking this will work for a whole season, including playoffs, is kinda hard to believe. Especially since the Lakers are hardly defensive oriented.

Not to nitpick or anything, but the Lakers have won 7 of the last 10 since Kobe has come back from his suspension. Which I'll take any day of the week. Also, if you take out that 2 game suspension, the Lakers have won 16 of their last 24. That is a winning % of .667, which puts a team in the upper echelon in the league. So to say that the Lakers haven't been winning a lot during this scoring binge isn't exactly true.

Also, I wouldn't say that the Lakers aren't defense oriented. They are a middle of the pack defensive team. They are tied for 15th in PPG given up. They are 13 opposition FG%, and actually the #2 team in the league in opp 3pt%. Not exactly world beaters, but definitly not a bad defensive team. Plus, their defense has been much better the last month or 2. I bet they rank top 10 in most of those catergories since Kobe started his 'scoring barage'.

Lastly, there is no way that Amare could score 80 a night. I don't care if he got the ball every single time down the floor. There is a reason that there is only one other player to score that many in a game. It is almost impossible.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Quite frankly, Lakers is in the same division and it's for Suns fans' interest to see Lakers fail (Kobe fail to be exact). Even if the Suns fans don't appreciate Kobe, what does it matter? Who gives a F about Lakers' success when Suns is fighting for #1 spot? I don't. Unless you are not a Suns fan??? Why are you here in the first place?

One, thanks for making my point.

Second, I am around here because I have been posting on these boards since the Rivals days. I have 'known' a lot of these posters for years now, and really like the passion for their team, and love to talk basketball with them. Also, I lived for a part of my life in Phoenix and my brother still lives there so I actully like the Suns, even though we are division 'rivals'. Mostly, I post here because this is a really good group, whose opinions I really do value and respect.

 

[jibikao]

One, thanks for making my point.

Second, I am around here because I have been posting on these boards since the Rivals days. I have 'known' a lot of these posters for years now, and really like the passion for their team, and love to talk basketball with them. Also, I lived for a part of my life in Phoenix and my brother still lives there so I actully like the Suns, even though we are division 'rivals'. Mostly, I post here because this is a really good group, whose opinions I really do value and respect.

It's good to have different people here but you WILL see biased opinion on a Suns-specific forum and I don't see the point of arguing with hardcore fans. Just like Lakers fans won't take Nash > Kobe anyway and I can understand that. I went to Lakersground all the time to read posts and some of them praise Kobe like "God" and I see nothing wrong with that.

My post was to point out that even if some Suns don't appreciate Kobe, it's no big deal. You are not going to change their opinioins because they love Suns. I've been saying so many times that I don't understand why people trash Kobe but this doesn't mean I would root for Kobe against Suns. His failure is our good news.

 

[jibikao]

And I still can't download the clip from NBA.com!!! damn it.

 

[LakeShowMan]

It's good to have different people here but you WILL see biased opinion on a Suns-specific forum and I don't see the point of arguing with hardcore fans. Just like Lakers fans won't take Nash > Kobe anyway and I can understand that. I went to Lakersground all the time to read posts and some of them praise Kobe like "God" and I see nothing wrong with that.

My post was to point out that even if some Suns don't appreciate Kobe, it's no big deal. You are not going to change their opinioins because they love Suns. I've been saying so many times that I don't understand why people trash Kobe but this doesn't mean I would root for Kobe against Suns. His failure is our good news.

Well I have my share of fights over at Lakersground and been called a Kobe hater on occasion because I call him out when I think he is playing selfish or taking bad shots.

Plus, I completely understand that hardcore fans will have issues with other teams and their players. I said as much in my post. My only quibble is that, when somebody does something that incredible (like say Jordan's flu game or Kobe last night), at some point as a fan of basketball you have to respect that and give the player credit and not try to take away from performance strictly out of 'hate'.

 

[Chaplin]

Well I have my share of fights over at Lakersground and been called a Kobe hater on occasion because I call him out when I think he is playing selfish or taking bad shots.

Plus, I completely understand that hardcore fans will have issues with other teams and their players. I said as much in my post. My only quibble is that, when somebody does something that incredible (like say Jordan's flu game or Kobe last night), at some point as a fan of basketball you have to respect that and give the player credit and not try to take away from performance strictly out of 'hate'.

I think that's fair. When it comes to Kobe Bryant, I think we can all agree, there's a lot of "hate" out there.

Everyone here in LA keeps talking about it, and rightfully so. Perhaps a more unbiased fan, and not an obssessive fan of a rival, would provide a more level-headed opinion, but I still stand by my comment that although it was a magnificent individual performance, there are a lot of things inherently wrong with it in the context of the Laker team.

 

[Yuma]

I think that's fair. When it comes to Kobe Bryant, I think we can all agree, there's a lot of "hate" out there.

Everyone here in LA keeps talking about it, and rightfully so. Perhaps a more unbiased fan, and not an obssessive fan of a rival, would provide a more level-headed opinion, but I still stand by my comment that although it was a magnificent individual performance, there are a lot of things inherently wrong with it in the context of the Laker team.

I think that's what all of us are trying to say. It was a great performance, but by no means does it foreshadow any great team achievements for the Lakers over the long haul.

Actually, Smush Parker, not to go off topic, is a real find at PG for the Lakers. Now if they could just upgrade everywhere else, they could be one of the elites once again.

 

[jibikao]

Well I have my share of fights over at Lakersground and been called a Kobe hater on occasion because I call him out when I think he is playing selfish or taking bad shots.

Plus, I completely understand that hardcore fans will have issues with other teams and their players. I said as much in my post. My only quibble is that, when somebody does something that incredible (like say Jordan's flu game or Kobe last night), at some point as a fan of basketball you have to respect that and give the player credit and not try to take away from performance strictly out of 'hate'.

I think most people here DO recognize that magnificent individual performance. I finally downloaded the clip but it's just a general highlight. I can't find the link to "See Kobe scoring 81 points in 90s" clip that was on the front page this morning. Maybe it was overloaded with viewers.

I am sure the media will root for Kobe for MVP this season. Deserve it or not, he does have an amazing individual stats. lol


By the way, it's common to call out your leader when the team is losing. Last year's Lakers sucked and it's obvious who you want to blame at. I would blame Nash if Suns is a losing team. lol

Man, Phil really knows how to get the best out of the star players. What did Phil do to Kobe? I know he gave him some books about how to become a better leader but what else? lol

 

[D-Dogg]

Only D-Dogg and other Laker fans seem to disagree with that, but that's to be expected.

That's because we watch all the Lakers games, so yeah, it is to be expected. Opinions formed with my own eyes, not from JA Adande, Plashke, Screamin' A Smith, etc.

Did you see the 81 point game? Not highlights, not recaps...see the game?

 

[Chaplin]

That's because we watch all the Lakers games, so yeah, it is to be expected. Opinions formed with my own eyes, not from JA Adande, Plashke, Screamin' A Smith, etc.

Did you see the 81 point game? Not highlights, not recaps...see the game?

Parts of it. I DO live in Los Angeles, you know.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Kobe scores 81. Kudos to him for making a very improbable feat a reality. Simply an amazing number.

Kobe scores 81 AND his team wins...why would anyone care beyond that?

 

[LakeShowMan]

To be honest with you guys, from strictly an asthetic perspective, the teams style is not always necesairly fun to watch. As amazing as Kobe Bryant is, basketball was not meant to be played this way. Of course, the league has steadily reverted to these kind of styles over the last 15 years or so.

Jordan showed that an amazing individual paired with the perfect supporting cast can win. It is the complete opposite of what I grew to know as basketball. I was a child of the 80s (born in 1975), my basketball ideals were born from the play of Magic Johnson and the Lakers, Larry Bird and the Celtics, Dr.J and the sixers, and to a lesser extent Isiah and the Bad Boys of Detroit.

Personally I like team play a lot more. Watching the way that the 2005/2006 Pistons play, is like watching an amazing orchestra. Just incredible, throwback basketball.

With all that said, I think that Kobe and Phil understand that for this team to win, most of the time they have to play this way. Thats where I think the misconception comes in. People that don't like Kobe, say that Kobe is playing this way out of selfishness, when in essence it is his drive to win, that forces him to do what the team needs him to do to win.

There were games this year that Kobe was a facilitator and got everyone involved. In fact they had a 6 game road trip earlier in the year that they went 5-1, and Kobe didn't score in bunches but mostly set up teammates and picked his scoring spots. Unfortunately, the inconsistency of his teammates makes it impossible for them to have a set script, if you will. The fact is though, when his supporting cast plays like they have, especially lately, Kobe is forced to play the way he has to give the team the best chance to win.

Kobe is in catch-22, and has been for a long time. When he won with Shaq, it was because of Shaq. People conveinently forget how many big shots, defensive stops, or plays he created for those teams. Also, when he scores a lot he is called a ball hog. When he doesn't score a lot and tries to pass, people say that he sabotages the game. Fact is, Kobe is interested in winning above everything else. I think sometimes his confidence/arrogance leads him to do things that he thinks is needed to win, but I really don't think he is selfish. The funny thing is, if Michael Jordan had the exact same game as Kobe did last night, all we would have heard is "See, thats why he is the greatest ever". When it is Kobe the majority of opposing fans in the league say: "What a freaking ballhog. He is a terrible teammate".

Now, the lot of you can believe this or not, but that is how I see it.

 

[D-Dogg]

Parts of it. I DO live in Los Angeles, you know.

Yes, I do know...that's why I keep naming the LA beat writers.

Then surely you saw that Kobe willed the team to win, after giving his team plenty of opps to actually help him out? That they were down, and he just picked them all up and carried them? And even when he was on the barrage in the second, he still moved the ball around, only to see Lamar step out of bounds, Smush get a charge, Devean missing a layup, etc. I firmly believe he would love to have a second option, because he knows how hard it is to be the barometer of the team. He coaches on the court, he TRIES to squeeze everything he can out of this group of poor shooters. When the team is helping him, they play well. When they are not, like last night (10/18 vs. 10/32 in the first half, down 15) then he says "screw it" and takes over. No, it's not the ideal way to play, but it's what has to happen until players develop or we get the shooter we desperately need.

The line between selfish and leader is blurry with this particular team (not so much last years team) because there isn't a consistent second scorer. When the team as a whole shoots well, the Lakers are frighteningly good. When they aren't shooting well as a whole, they don't look too good.

Kobe and Caron played well with each other last year, but Caron plays no D. Kwame plays D, but can't shoot. So we've traded one problem for another. But I prefer fixing defense on the team, which has been done nicely, than trying to just outscore opponents.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

To be honest with you guys, from strictly an asthetic perspective, the teams style is not always necesairly fun to watch. As amazing as Kobe Bryant is, basketball was not meant to be played this way. Of course, the league has steadily reverted to these kind of styles over the last 15 years or so.

Jordan showed that an amazing individual paired with the perfect supporting cast can win. It is the complete opposite of what I grew to know as basketball. I was a child of the 80s (born in 1975), my basketball ideals were born from the play of Magic Johnson and the Lakers, Larry Bird and the Celtics, Dr.J and the sixers, and to a lesser extent Isiah and the Bad Boys of Detroit.

Personally I like team play a lot more. Watching the way that the 2005/2006 Pistons play, is like watching an amazing orchestra. Just incredible, throwback basketball.

With all that said, I think that Kobe and Phil understand that for this team to win, most of the time they have to play this way. Thats where I think the misconception comes in. People that don't like Kobe, say that Kobe is playing this way out of selfishness, when in essence it is his drive to win, that forces him to do what the team needs him to do to win.

There were games this year that Kobe was a facilitator and got everyone involved. In fact they had a 6 game road trip earlier in the year that they went 5-1, and Kobe didn't score in bunches but mostly set up teammates and picked his scoring spots. Unfortunately, the inconsistency of his teammates makes it impossible for them to have a set script, if you will. The fact is though, when his supporting cast plays like they have, especially lately, Kobe is forced to play the way he has to give the team the best chance to win.

Kobe is in catch-22, and has been for a long time. When he won with Shaq, it was because of Shaq. People conveinently forget how many big shots, defensive stops, or plays he created for those teams. Also, when he scores a lot he is called a ball hog. When he doesn't score a lot and tries to pass, people say that he sabotages the game. Fact is, Kobe is interested in winning above everything else. I think sometimes his confidence/arrogance leads him to do things that he thinks is needed to win, but I really don't think he is selfish. The funny thing is, if Michael Jordan had the exact same game as Kobe did last night, all we would have heard is "See, thats why he is the greatest ever". When it is Kobe the majority of opposing fans in the league say: "What a freaking ballhog. He is a terrible teammate".

Now, the lot of you can believe this or not, but that is how I see it.

I think there's some truth to what you wrote. I think a lot of people hate on Kobe because he has the ability to pass Jordan as the games greatest player. Of course the Colorado incident didn't help his image and popularity, nor did the personal battles with Shaq, arguably the most popular player in the league at the time.

 

[Chaplin]

Yes, I do know...that's why I keep naming the LA beat writers.

Then surely you saw that Kobe willed the team to win, after giving his team plenty of opps to actually help him out? That they were down, and he just picked them all up and carried them? And even when he was on the barrage in the second, he still moved the ball around, only to see Lamar step out of bounds, Smush get a charge, Devean missing a layup, etc. I firmly believe he would love to have a second option, because he knows how hard it is to be the barometer of the team. He coaches on the court, he TRIES to squeeze everything he can out of this group of poor shooters. When the team is helping him, they play well. When they are not, like last night (10/18 vs. 10/32 in the first half, down 15) then he says "screw it" and takes over. No, it's not the ideal way to play, but it's what has to happen until players develop or we get the shooter we desperately need.

The line between selfish and leader is blurry with this particular team (not so much last years team) because there isn't a consistent second scorer. When the team as a whole shoots well, the Lakers are frighteningly good. When they aren't shooting well as a whole, they don't look too good.

Kobe and Caron played well with each other last year, but Caron plays no D. Kwame plays D, but can't shoot. So we've traded one problem for another. But I prefer fixing defense on the team, which has been done nicely, than trying to just outscore opponents.

I'm not denying that what Kobe did last night made his team win. Not denying that at all. What I am saying is that Kobe HAD to do that last night in order to win. Were his teammates having off nights? I think that's a safe-to-say YES. But the problem is that his team is terrible, and Kobe has to do this more and more as the season goes on. Is he doing it solely for the wins? I'm sure that's part of it, I'll concede that. But to think that he didn't do any of that last night to get individual gain is incredibly naive.

And let's not fool ourselves: The Lakers would be much better with Caron Butler and not Kwame Brown.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I think there's some truth to what you wrote. I think a lot of people hate on Kobe because he has the ability to pass Jordan as the games greatest player. Of course the Colorado incident didn't help his image and popularity, nor did the personal battles with Shaq, arguably the most popular player in the league at the time.

Agreed.

That is such an interesting thing in sports as well, especially basketball. People are so intensley aligned with their 'guy', that there is this inherent need to rip 'the next guy', to protect the status of their player.

I admit that I hated Jordan, because it drove me nuts that people said he was better, or had the ability to be better then Magic. To me, Magic will always be the greatest I ever saw play, but I also know that at times I looked for things in Michael to devalue his accomplishments. However, there were performances that he had that no matter how you felt about him you had to tip your cap to the man and just appreciate the greatness.

Now, with the generation of Jordan lovers, they in someway feel threatened by Kobe and do the same thing. It must be some sort of nature of the beast.

I can even see it in Laker circles, because so many of the team's fans for some reason always feel the need to denigrade the things that LeBron is doing and has done. I personally, don't get caught up in this because as much as I love Kobe, Magic will always be my measuring stick. Plus, at this point I don't think I have ever been as big of fan of a non-Laker as I am of LeBron.

In 10-15 years, all of the people that judge basketball in terms of Kobe and LeBron will find a new player that threatens that ideal. The circle of life. ***Someone please cue the Elton John song***

 

[D-Dogg]

And let's not fool ourselves: The Lakers would be much better with Caron Butler and not Kwame Brown.

Offensively, yes. Defensively, not even close. Kwame mans up bigs, which Mihm just can't do, and is a good offensive rebounder. I watch Kwame specifically every game, because I like the way he is playing defense, and hope it bumps his confidence up. Forever, the big problem with teams we play has been the PF or Center kills us. That is no longer a problem, and our defense is a lot better.

I prefer to improve defensively.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Agreed.

That is such an interesting thing in sports as well, especially basketball. People are so intensley aligned with their 'guy', that there is this inherent need to rip 'the next guy', to protect the status of their player.

I admit that I hated Jordan, because it drove me nuts that people said he was better, or had the ability to be better then Magic. To me, Magic will always be the greatest I ever saw play, but I also know that at times I looked for things in Michael to devalue his accomplishments. However, there were performances that he had that no matter how you felt about him you had to tip your cap to the man and just appreciate the greatness.

Now, with the generation of Jordan lovers, they in someway feel threatened by Kobe and do the same thing. It must be some sort of nature of the beast.

I can even see it in Laker circles, because so many of the team's fans for some reason always feel the need to denigrade the things that LeBron is doing and has done. I personally, don't get caught up in this because as much as I love Kobe, Magic will always be my measuring stick. Plus, at this point I don't think I have ever been as big of fan of a non-Laker as I am of LeBron.

In 10-15 years, all of the people that judge basketball in terms of Kobe and LeBron will find a new player that threatens that ideal. The circle of life. ***Someone please cue the Elton John song***

And in 10-15 years, those players that threaten Kobe or LeBron's status will be 8-10 of Shawn Kemps illegitimate children.

 

[D-Dogg]

I personally, don't get caught up in this because as much as I love Kobe, Magic will always be my measuring stick.

Kobe just officially took my second favorite player ever spot away from James Worthy. It's been in the works for some time now. But Magic is pretty safely secured in that number one spot.

 

[Chaplin]

Offensively, yes. Defensively, not even close. Kwame mans up bigs, which Mihm just can't do, and is a good offensive rebounder. I watch Kwame specifically every game, because I like the way he is playing defense, and hope it bumps his confidence up. Forever, the big problem with teams we play has been the PF or Center kills us. That is no longer a problem, and our defense is a lot better.

I prefer to improve defensively.

Personally, I like Chris Mihm. But it's hard for players to really excel in Phil's system unless they are superstar level. Look at Lamar Odom, who is great in a system with multiple stars (i.e. a team environment). But in this system, which is Kobe and a bunch of mid- or lower-tiered players, he suffers. It actually would be very frustrating to be a Laker fan and watch Lamar play, because he is so talented.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Personally, I like Chris Mihm. But it's hard for players to really excel in Phil's system unless they are superstar level. Look at Lamar Odom, who is great in a system with multiple stars (i.e. a team environment). But in this system, which is Kobe and a bunch of mid- or lower-tiered players, he suffers. It actually would be very frustrating to be a Laker fan and watch Lamar play, because he is so talented.

I love Lamar Odom, and his skill set is incredibe. However, he is about as inconsistent as any player I have seen. His aggresiveness is on a complete wave, and his ebbs and flows are maddening.

Kobe just officially took my second favorite player ever spot away from James Worthy. It's been in the works for some time now. But Magic is pretty safely secured in that number one spot.

I would have to say Kobe is up there for me as well. I love my boy Michael Cooper too, so much so that I named my dog after him.

And in 10-15 years, those players that threaten Kobe or LeBron's status will be 8-10 of Shawn Kemps illegitimate children.

 

[D-Dogg]

Personally, I like Chris Mihm. But it's hard for players to really excel in Phil's system unless they are superstar level. Look at Lamar Odom, who is great in a system with multiple stars (i.e. a team environment). But in this system, which is Kobe and a bunch of mid- or lower-tiered players, he suffers. It actually would be very frustrating to be a Laker fan and watch Lamar play, because he is so talented.

Bill Simmons once called Lamar "Taco Salad" because Taco Salads always sound so damn good, but when you eat them they are always lacking something.

Lamar has all the talent in the world, and could be amazing, but something in him does not allow him to live up to it. Boneheaded decisions, mental errors, inconsistency, bad defensive plays, you name it. Lamar is the type of guy who could AVERAGE a triple double, if he actually desired it...but he has no desire. It is frustrating to watch him play.

Mihm is playing great, and I love him, but he's not a good man defender (other than blocks). He's too thin to body up big players.

I disagree that you need to be a superstar to excel in Phil's system. You need to play a role, and play it well. Horace Grant, John Paxon, Dennis Rodman, Glenn Rice, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, etc. You have guys there that do something very well (rebound, shoot, play defense, etc) and are ok at everything else. But deadeye shooters like Rice, Kerr, Paxon and defenders/rebounders are key. Kwame is stepping into the Ho Grant/Rodman role, but he has a long way to go...I am excited for him, yes, and I see where he's going. I like Smush, and hope he gets more consistent. A great shooter is a missing component though.

They aren't that far away, it only looks/feels that way sometimes.