Kobe strikes again

[mribnik]

It's not like this is something new. There were other incidents last year, then the Bell/Bryant thing in the playoffs drew a lot of attention from everybody, including the league. Add to that the fact that Kobe split LB's lip with an elbow in the very next game while Raja was suspended. This year he smacked Manu and caused enough damage that it could hardly be ignored even with no foul called.

When it happens over and over again, they have no choice but to look at it. This one looks pretty much the same as the last time, plus they called the OF. I hope they decide to be consistent.

This was a point I was going to bring up as well. Bell brought up Kobe's elbows after the close line incident, and it was evident the very next game that he was correct (Barbosa getting an elbow to the face and requiring stitches). I'm guessing the league is watched Kobe more carefully since then.

Edit: I'm not sure why I decided to quote your post and essentially type the exact same thing. )

 

[Covert Rain]

That's like saying that although he intentionally drove drunk, he didn't intend to hit anybody. It's kind of obvious that when you swing your elbows around when you're near somebody there's a good chance you're going to hit them in the face. It shouldn't matter whether or not there was any malice involved (though that remains to be seen), but he practially punched him none-the-less.

But hey, at least he's assaulting men this time.

 

[D-Dogg]

What isn't intentional exactly? It's not intentional that he flails, or he's not intentionally trying to hurt someone? I have no idea how you can argue the first point (especially considering a second offense), and the second point is irrelevant.

He intentionally flails his arms (this is not something new...he's always done it) to either act like he got hit or if did get hit he flails around to emphasize it and get the call.

He is not intentionally looking for someone to put an elbow into.

There is an ENORMOUS difference in that, and what Karl Malone used to do. Kobe is trying to trick and/or ensure the refs make a foul call, not trying to inflict damage on someone.

The second point is not irrelevant...intent should be part of deciding a suspension, always. There is contact as part of the game (and yes, flailing is part of the game) and there is contact outside of the game. Kobe dropped Mike Miller with a jab to the throat and got two well-deserved games off last season...that was outside of the game and wrong to do. No doubt. However, this elbow on flailing around is not outside the game...it is part of it and suspensions are not warranted. Phil was outraged at the last one, and rightfully so. I definitely don't think Kobe is above making a dirty play (see Mike Miller) but these are not. Remember, even Ginobli thought it was stupid that Kobe got a game for that last one...he knows because he flops around too.

 

[D-Dogg]

That's like saying that although he intentionally drove drunk, he didn't intend to hit anybody.

No, it's not at all. And you know it.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Not sure how anyone can say it's not intentional after saying he does it all the time - the way the arm is flailing it's not part of his shooting motion - so it is something that he does to draw contact

you are responsible for your body - if you do something that isn't necessary to the play and cause harm it should be looked at

reggie miller would flail, but a lot of it was tied into his motion - so one it wasn't so obvious and two he either leaned in with his upper body, or kicked his legs and fell

eitherway he wasn't causing harm to anyone

i compare this activity to that of karl malone - in that malone would charge with knees & elbows to get people away from him and make the refs force a call - occasionally breaking a rib or two on the way

kobe is throwing his elbow out to force contact, but also to let everyone know they should check back because if they challenge him hard he'll tag them

many players do this in the course of a game - give a hard foul in the lane, dig a little deep on a pick or run hard through a screen, secure the ball and turn with your elbows out

only thing is, kobe's not smart enough to get away with it and realize he needs to send his messages in something that could actually be considered a basketball move

 

[Dback Jon]

Using Karl Malone as a defense is, well, indefensable. Malone should have fouled out in the first 15 minutes of most games he played. Fortunately, the league seems to be cracking down on that sort of play.

Surely, the "Best Player in the NBA" can drive the lane without flailing his arms like a windmill...

 

[mribnik]

He intentionally flails his arms (this is not something new...he's always done it) to either act like he got hit or if did get hit he flails around to emphasize it and get the call.

He is not intentionally looking for someone to put an elbow into.

There is an ENORMOUS difference in that, and what Karl Malone used to do. Kobe is trying to trick and/or ensure the refs make a foul call, not trying to inflict damage on someone.

The second point is not irrelevant...intent should be part of deciding a suspension, always. There is contact as part of the game (and yes, flailing is part of the game) and there is contact outside of the game. Kobe dropped Mike Miller with a jab to the throat and got two well-deserved games off last season...that was outside of the game and wrong to do. No doubt. However, this elbow on flailing around is not outside the game...it is part of it and suspensions are not warranted. Phil was outraged at the last one, and rightfully so. I definitely don't think Kobe is above making a dirty play (see Mike Miller) but these are not. Remember, even Ginobli thought it was stupid that Kobe got a game for that last one...he knows because he flops around too.

Yeah exactly, that's why he said such. That doesn't make it right.

It doesn't matter what Malone used to do, I think we can agree that the league isn't the same as it was then.

None of this matters anyways. The league said it wasn't acceptable last time, and since you admit Kobe intentionally flails, there should be no problem stopping it. Him doing the same thing after getting a suspension the first time is stupid.

Oh, and this isn't the same type of flailing you see all game IMO. These were both late game pressure situations and he got his shot blocked.

Edit: Oh, and I do sorta agree that the league should crack down on the "pump fake and jump into the defender" play as well, which might make some players believe that other means of creating contact are acceptable.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I am sorry, but until Ginobili starts getting suspended for flopping and injuring players, I have no problem with this.

The league needs to call it straight.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

No, it's not at all. And you know it.

I'm concinvced.

Anyways, there's no way that you can discern intent becuase nobody knows what Kobe was thinking. When you fail your arms around wildly like that with someone near you, it's obvious that you have a serious chance at hitting them. Kobe should definitely know this, considering he did it almost a month ago. Whether or not he wanted to hurt Jaric, nobody knows. But the fact is he did, and he should be suspended for it.

 

[Dback Jon]

I am sorry, but until Ginobili starts getting suspended for flopping and injuring players, I have no problem with this.

The league needs to call it straight.

So players other than ginobili are supposed to grin and bear the wrath of kobe's elbows because of a flopping Argentinan?

 

[jenna2891]

He intentionally flails his arms (this is not something new...he's always done it) to either act like he got hit or if did get hit he flails around to emphasize it and get the call.

He is not intentionally looking for someone to put an elbow into.

and, after hitting and hurting manu, he should now know that people can get hurt when he does this. i didn't agree with the first suspension, but at this point, he's asking for it. the "but it was an accident!" argument loses its weight when he seemingly makes no effort to cut out his behavior.

 

[jbeecham]

He intentionally flails his arms (this is not something new...he's always done it) to either act like he got hit or if did get hit he flails around to emphasize it and get the call.

Just because he's always flailed his arms to trick the refs into calling fouls doesn't make that type of foul ok. This play and the one against Ginbolil are mirror images of each other. Neither were basketball motions and both times he made contact in their faces when he could've just as easily hit just their arms. After the last time, the league basically said "Kobe this isn't a basketball play so stop doing it" by suspending him and then he does it again so the suspension should be a little worse this time.

 

[Covert Rain]

Kobe intended to swing his arm down at both players. I have a hard time thinking here that Kobe was just flailing in hopes of "nicking" a player to get a call. In both replays, he clearly comes down hard on each player's dome.

To me these two plays are alot less like jumping into someone to get a call and more like the equivalent of trying to clear out with your off hand to get your shot off. In each instance the players were close enough to block so Kobe took swipes at them with the off hand. Bring on the suspension.

 

[D-Dogg]

Surely, the "Best Player in the NBA" can drive the lane without flailing his arms like a windmill...

I agree with that. I understand why he does it, because he gets no-calls on an awful lot of contact...but I also think he feeds that himself by flailing away like he does and over-acting on minimal contact. It's one of the things I do NOT like about his game, but unless flailing and flopping is made illegal by the league, I don't believe anyone should get suspended for contact made as a result of it. Yes, that goes for Manu as well.

 

[mribnik]

I agree with that. I understand why he does it, because he gets no-calls on an awful lot of contact...but I also think he feeds that himself by flailing away like he does and over-acting on minimal contact. It's one of the things I do NOT like about his game, but unless flailing and flopping is made illegal by the league, I don't believe anyone should get suspended for contact made as a result of it. Yes, that goes for Manu as well.

So, no matter what the act is, as long as it can be considered "flailing," a player shouldn't be suspended for it?

 

[D-Dogg]

Kobe I have a hard time thinking here that Kobe was just flailing in hopes of "nicking" a player to get a call.

That's not what he's doing...he's making exaggerated movements to entice the refs to make a call...he actually was fouled on his shot there (well, looked like it but the video I was watching was streaming from China and he may not have been) and was trying to get the refs to make the call. He is not trying to make contact with someone to get a call...that defeats the purpose...

It is a dumb move in general, IMO, and I'd be happy to see him stop doing it. I don't think suspensions are warranted, however. Offensive fouls, sure. But suspensions are overkill. The league got it WRONG the last time, and hopefully they get it right this time. But whatever...maybe he'll stop doing it and stop flailing around in general. I'd actually prefer that.

 

[Covert Rain]

That's not what he's doing...he's making exaggerated movements

Exaggerated movements? You have got to be kidding. If that was his normal shot motion I could buy that. However, Kobe never launches his off hand to the side. Let alone to the side down on someones dome. If that was the case this wouldn't even be an issue.

I am convinced he is using his off hand to clear out the defender. In each case he got carried away either out of fustration or whatever. The leauge got it right. I just hope they are consistant.

 

[Dback Jon]

So in summation:

Kobe flails his arms INTENTIONALLY to draw fouls. The only way to draw a foul is through contact. Therefore, Kobe is INTENTIONALLY trying to hit opposing players with his arms/elbow.

Judge Judy rules suspension is warranted.

 

[D-Dogg]

So, no matter what the act is, as long as it can be considered "flailing," a player shouldn't be suspended for it?

Yes...pretty much. Flailing is part of the game. Intentionally trying to hit and injure someone is not.

 

[D-Dogg]

Exaggerated movements? You have got to be kidding.

You don't watch enough of him to realize it then. He windmills his arms around looking for foul calls quite often, most of the time in the paint, however.

I never said I like it...I think it's a weak point of his game and he concentrates on it sometimes to the detriment of his overall play. But I also know he does it all the freaking time.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

the league got it dead right both times

take some responsibility for your body

if you make a move that isn't a basketball move you should be penalized

it would be like reggie evans saying he grabs people by the balls all the time to accentuate the fact that people are catching him with elbows & knees while boxing out

 

[mribnik]

Yes...pretty much. Flailing is part of the game. Intentionally trying to hit and injure someone is not.

But Intentionally trying to hit was part of the flailing. He wasn't intentionally trying to injure someone, but he was clearly intentionally trying to make contact with them. You don't believe that to be the case? Do you believe it's a random accident that in both instances his arm had exactly the same motion directly toward the other player's head?

 

[Covert Rain]

You don't watch enough of him to realize it then. He windmills his arms around looking for foul calls quite often, most of the time in the paint, however.

I never said I like it...I think it's a weak point of his game and he concentrates on it sometimes to the detriment of his overall play. But I also know he does it all the freaking time.

I watch plenty of Laker games and Kobe. Windmilling his arms out to the side is not part of his normal shot motion and never has been.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

it's not his shooting motion though

if he is in a 3 point contest - is he swinging his off arm out like that?!

no - so it's not his shooting motion

it's done intentionally to make contact

making contact with an elbow is a dicey thing that can get people hurt - when you hurt someone when throwing an elbow that doesn't need to be thrown, you should be punished

 

[D-Dogg]

So in summation:

Kobe flails his arms INTENTIONALLY to draw fouls. The only way to draw a foul is through contact. Therefore, Kobe is INTENTIONALLY trying to hit opposing players with his arms/elbow.

Judge Judy rules suspension is warranted.

No, you can also draw a foul without contact by making it appear as though you were hit. This is what he's doing, and until it is made illegal to do so it should not be a suspendable act.

If they want to make it illegal, then by all means. But be up front about it.