Kobe strikes again

[D-Dogg]

I watch plenty of Laker games and Kobe. Windmilling his arms out to the side is not part of his normal shot motion and never has been.

Nobody is saying it is. Follow along. It's a motion he does to try and get refs to call fouls that may or may not have happened. I watch damn near every Laker game, and have since League Pass came around...this motion is nothing new for Kobe, although more rare on jump shots.

 

[jenna2891]

No, you can also draw a foul without contact by making it appear as though you were hit. This is what he's doing, and until it is made illegal to do so it should not be a suspendable act.

operative phrase.

 

[D-Dogg]

But Intentionally trying to hit was part of the flailing. He wasn't intentionally trying to injure someone, but he was clearly intentionally trying to make contact with them. You don't believe that to be the case? Do you believe it's a random accident that in both instances his arm had exactly the same motion directly toward the other player's head?

No, he isn't trying to hit them...it's fairly clear that hitting them would be an offensive foul, not a shooting foul. Rules of basketball show that. He's trying to make the refs think he was fouled on the arms in such a way that he windmills them wildly.

It's a stupid move, don't get me wrong...but see it for what it is.

 

[D-Dogg]

operative phrase.

Never, ever, ever said it was right. I frankly hate it. But flopping and flailing isn't illegal and it buys calls sometimes.

 

[mribnik]

Nobody is saying it is. Follow along. It's a motion he does to try and get refs to call fouls that may or may not have happened. I watch damn near every Laker game, and have since League Pass came around...this motion is nothing new for Kobe, although more rare on jump shots.

And it has been brought to the leagues attention after last years playoffs. If Kobe wants to continue to play that way, he can, every other game.

 

[jenna2891]

for d-dogg

 

[MigratingOsprey]

hitting someone in the face with an elbow is illegal when done by an intentional & unnecessary movement of your body

always has been

 

[Heucrazy]

Never, ever, ever said it was right. I frankly hate it. But flopping and flailing isn't illegal and it buys calls sometimes.

Which Dewayne Wade thanks god for everyday.

 

[D-Dogg]

no - so it's not his shooting motion

No, it isn't. You are correct.

it's done intentionally to make contact

No, it isn't. That would be an offensive foul (the correct call that was made).

It IS done to either dramatize contact that was made or make it appear that contact was made and thus get a foul call.

Simple cause and effect:

The Effect: Arms flailing wildly backwards

STEMS FROM

The Cause: Foul on the shot attempt, either real or imagined



Saying he's doing it to create contact and draw a foul is incorrect...he's doing it to show that he "got" fouled, and in the process of doing it (flailing) he committed a foul himself.

 

[D-Dogg]

for d-dogg

That's big of you to admit when you are wrong, j.

 

[D-Dogg]

hitting someone in the face with an elbow is illegal when done by an intentional & unnecessary movement of your body

always has been

If he was intentionally trying to hit the person, I agree it is suspendable. Again, see Mike Miller. If he is intentionally trying to get an oscar and flail wildly to get a call, it is an offensive foul and you move along.

 

[Covert Rain]

Nobody is saying it is. Follow along. It's a motion he does to try and get refs to call fouls that may or may not have happened. I watch damn near every Laker game, and have since League Pass came around...this motion is nothing new for Kobe, although more rare on jump shots.

Follow this. If it's part of his shot motion, I could buy the argument that is something he just does. If your saying it's not part of his shot motion but something he intentionally does to get calls then there is no arguement. Swiping down with your off hand is a foul. If your not making a play on the ball then a foul is grounds for suspension in the NBA. Period.

That's also assuming I buy the Kobe windmills other players to get calls which I don't. Your not the only one with League Pass. I have also watched Kobe since he came into the league. Kobe doesn't windmill flail his arms to get calls like you say. It's never been part of the scouting report on Kobe. If it was as often as you say, this would have been an issue a long time ago.

 

[myrondizzo]

i just watched the video and there is no way this was an accident. he might not of meant to elbow him in the face but he was at the very least trying to push off with the off hand. but he did hit him so the suspension was warranted.

 

[mribnik]

If he was intentionally trying to hit the person, I agree it is suspendable. Again, see Mike Miller. If he is intentionally trying to get an oscar and flail wildly to get a call, it is an offensive foul and you move along.

And in this case, part of "intentionally trying to get an oscar and flailing wildly" was intentionally making contact with someone. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[D-Dogg]

Kobe doesn't windmill flail his arms to get calls like you say. It's never been part of the scouting report on Kobe. If it was as often as you say, this would have been an issue a long time ago.

I've seen him do it for years. It's obnoxious and annoying, but he's been doing it for years.

 

[jenna2891]

That's big of you to admit when you are wrong, j.

hmmm... so it's not just with kobe. comprehension is an issue for you all around.

 

[D-Dogg]

And in this case, part of "intentionally trying to get an oscar and flailing wildly" was intentionally making contact with someone. They're not mutually exclusive.

I don't buy it being intentionally trying to make contact. That's an offensive foul, correctly called, and would make no sense from a basketball mindset.

 

[mribnik]

I've seen him do it for years. It's obnoxious and annoying, but he's been doing it for years.

I agree. The problem is, the league has become aware of his flailing arms and elbows after the playoffs last year. Now he's hitting people in the face and getting suspended for it.

 

[D-Dogg]

hmmm... so it's not just with kobe. comprehension is an issue for you all around.

I'd make the same argument for Raja, blech. Or for Manu. Flopping around is flopping around. Not that I like it, but it isn't suspendable. Offensive foul, move along. That's the way I take it.

 

[D-Dogg]

Hopefully his one game suspension will stop him from flopping around. I don't agree with it, at all, but I'd love to see him not do that anymore, ever. I don't care about him hitting anyone with the move either...I just think it's ridiculous to begin with. Don't agree with the suspension, still.

 

[jenna2891]

I'd make the same argument for Raja, blech. Or for Manu. Flopping around is flopping around. Not that I like it, but it isn't suspendable. Offensive foul, move along. That's the way I take it.

yes, the first time. but he did the exact same thing last month and got suspended. i thought that was extreme, but the precedent has been set. he's a moron for thinking he can get away with it again. you know the old saying... "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, kobe is a huge jackass."

 

[Covert Rain]

I think the big issue is here that most people can differentiate between someone like Raja or Manu flopping and taking the physical punishment by jumping in front of someone versus getting pimp slapped by Kobe while trying to defend him.

 

[Skumbag]

Kobe must die!

I <3 you joumana kidd....

 

[D-Dogg]

This all goes back to what Phil Jackson said about the first suspension...that a non-basketball person is making basketball related decisions. Jaric knows the scoop and described it EXACTLY as I did in this thread.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2790534

Jaric said he was surprised that Bryant was suspended.

"I haven't seen the replay, but if you ask me what I thought about the play when it happened, I don't think he did it intentionally, and I don't think players should be suspended for things that happen unintentionally," Jaric told ESPN.com. "I think he was trying to draw a foul, and he swung his hand out to make it look dramatic, and he hit me by accident. He apologized right after."

Basketball player in questions sees the issue as a basketball player would.

But Stu Jackson stands by his decision.

"I'm not in the business of reading players' minds, I'm simply evaluating the play as a basketball play," [stu] Jackson told The Associated Press. "And when you take a shot and follow through, followed by driving an arm back in an aggressive manner that strikes a defender in his face, that's what we evaluated to be a non-acceptable play."

Non-player sees it differently. I side with basketball player, every time, in matters like this.

Phil's quote from the last time:

``Astonished is more or less the word I would use,'' Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. ``I think it's a unilateral decision. Baseball has all the appeals that they go through. In basketball, we just have the decision come to us, and we submit. This is one of those things that we're questioning why.''

Stu Jackson said the determining factors were that Bryant made contact with Ginobili ``above the shoulders'' and that it was an ``unnatural basketball act,'' in that Bryant shot and then ``drove a stiff arm backward and struck Ginobili in the head.''

``There's so many things that are going into it,'' Phil Jackson said in response, ``that to draw a conclusion like that lends me to think that a non-basketball player probably made the decision on this particular act.

``I don't think someone who played basketball, knows how people work to try and get a foul or try to create contact and make a foul, would question it.''

It's a moot point, since the NBA gives what it gives, but I think it is a wrong-headed decision.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

That's not what he's doing...he's making exaggerated movements to entice the refs to make a call...he actually was fouled on his shot there (well, looked like it but the video I was watching was streaming from China and he may not have been) and was trying to get the refs to make the call. He is not trying to make contact with someone to get a call...that defeats the purpose...

It is a dumb move in general, IMO, and I'd be happy to see him stop doing it. I don't think suspensions are warranted, however. Offensive fouls, sure. But suspensions are overkill. The league got it WRONG the last time, and hopefully they get it right this time. But whatever...maybe he'll stop doing it and stop flailing around in general. I'd actually prefer that.

Yep I agree. The real problem here is that what Kobe does works. If the Refs would consistently call offensive fouls on him, he would stop. Same with Gifloppi.

Dirty play has always been part of the game. This isn't some new tactic Kobe invented. He went with it because it works. It is lazy referring and preferential treatment of certain players that encourages the dirty play.

The only reason Kobe gets suspended is so that the blame goes on one player instead of the real problem which is officiating as a whole.