Kolb v. Leinart

Cardiac

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Of the 53 guys on the team in the Spring of 2007 only a handful were still on the roster last season. The team was 5-11 and dead last in almost every statistical category last year. Over the 3 previous seasons they won 31 games and an NFC Championship.

I'd have to disagree with you.

But really who was better is irrelevant. CKW wants his guys. That's just the way it is in the NFL.

I agree that all head coaches including CKW want their guys, I just disagree that he refuses to accept anyone on the roster prior to his signing as one of his guys. DD and Adub extended. He tried to extend Rolle and Dansby.

What is the average turnover of personnel for an NFL team?

Who did Whiz "cut loose" that had talent?

I'm not discounting that with a HC change comes a higher then normal turnover of personnel. What I am saying is that Whiz isn't cutting or jettisoning players for no reason.

I don't agree that who is better is irrelevant. If they are talented and not a locker room cancer then Whiz wants them. I would say a Whiz guy is whoever has talent, character and a work ethic. Doesn't matter how they became a Cardinal or who brought them in.

Whiz has several conversations with ML about want he expects from his QB. ML tries to live up to these standards but has become captain check down and doesn't truly put in the effort that most successful NFL QB' put in. Whiz puts DA as the starter in game 3 of the preseason to give ML a push and see what DA has. ML goes behind a tree and starts WHINING to the press before he even approaches Whiz about why DA gets the start.

PANZY ASS BABY TACTICS THAT SEAL HIS FATE IN THE SHORT TERM.

ML then is such a pouty baby that he wants to be cut instead of the #2 QB. Wish granted frat party boy, good luck in the future and hope you grow a pair.
 
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moklerman

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ML tries to live up to these standards but has become captain check down
2010 preseason: ML - 6.2 ypa DA - 6.0 ypa. Leinart had a much higher completion percentage(78.6 to 58.9), 1 TD to DA's 2 TD's and 0 INT to DA's 2 INT. Instead of giving the starter as much playing time as he wants/needs, Whis was doing everything he could to give DA a chance. And DA did nothing to win the job or show that he was anything different than what he'd been in Cleveland. Terrible completion percentage, turnovers and little production to offset the tremendous bad side that he offered. Then he went out and got worse during the regular season.

Whiz puts DA as the starter in game 3 of the preseason to give ML a push and see what DA has.
I don't think your recounting or representation is particularly accurate.

From the very first preseason game, Leinart was not getting the playing time that he wanted and needed. You seem to know everything that Leinart was told and talked about, so go back a little further. What was he told before the Cardinals picked up DA? Was he told that it was his turn to be the starter? Or was he told that the team would be bringing in a veteran to have a QB competition? Was he told that as long as he did certain things he would get a shot? Did he do those things?

Or do none of us really know what was said and whether or not Leinart lived up to what Whis was asking from him? I know I'm confused about it. Up until the first preseason game, everyone with access to the Cards was saying how hard he was working, how dedicated he was, how ready he was to take on the challenge of being a starting QB. Then overnight he's a pariah because he wants more playing time in the preseason? He had to be cut because he expressed frustration to the media about not getting enough playing time?

None of that makes any sense at all.

And if interacting with the press was any kind of consideration, why would Whis choose a QB who has never been too discrete in that area:
"The fans are ruthless and don't deserve a winner,"
Makes the "study my ass off" & "I wasn't laughing" quotes not too much of a surprise in retrospect.

Are the Cardinals just unlucky with these guys or are they missing obvious clues? Personally, I don't think Leinart's frustration is nearly as bad as Anderson's outbursts.


 
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TJ

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TJ, moklerman has staying power and won't give up on a topic even when it's opinion based and he is clearly wrong. :)

Damn...that's twice this week I've been called out on my hardheaded personality.

Get a clue, TJ :D

Moklerman is definitely entitled to his own opinion (just like anyone); however, it is quite irritating when someone conveniently overlooks facts in order to fulfill an agenda.

I digress. Matt Leinart isnt on the team and it is useless to even revisit tht situation. I wish him luck in the future, but he burned his own bridges while he was here and that's that.

Lets focus on the present and future. I NEED MORE KEVIN KOLB THREADS!!!!!
 

desertdawg

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Damn...that's twice this week I've been called out on my hardheaded personality.

Get a clue, TJ :D

Moklerman is definitely entitled to his own opinion (just like anyone); however, it is quite irritating when someone conveniently overlooks facts in order to fulfill an agenda.

I digress. Matt Leinart isnt on the team and it is useless to even revisit tht situation. I wish him luck in the future, but he burned his own bridges while he was here and that's that.

Lets focus on the present and future. I NEED MORE KEVIN KOLB THREADS!!!!!
More Kolb threads?!
But I feels ya. Smoke hash>rehash.
 

moklerman

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Moklerman is definitely entitled to his own opinion (just like anyone); however, it is quite irritating when someone conveniently overlooks facts in order to fulfill an agenda.
Imagine the irritation I feel having to argue fiction. You're not interested in facts and have illustrated that many times.
 

TJ

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Imagine the irritation I feel having to argue fiction. You're not interested in facts and have illustrated that many times.

:rolleyes:

If that's the case, the man in the mirror is the one you are irritated towards

I hate to say it like this, but the facts have been conveyed to you several times. You feel the need to conveniently skim through my posts and avoid the facts shown to you along with the ones that have been apparent ever since Kurt retired. I honestly believe you are jaded.
 
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moklerman

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:rolleyes:

If that's the case, the man in the mirror is the one you are irritated towards

I hate to say it like this, but the facts have been conveyed to you several times. You feel the need to conveniently skim through my posts and avoid the facts shown to you along with the ones that have been apparent ever since Kurt retired. I honestly believe you are jaded.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but your opinions aren't facts.
He was given multiple opportunities to seize the job in Arizona and failed.
This has been your mantra so I'll start here. Factually, it's inaccurate. Perhaps it is just poor wording on your part but the FACT of the matter is, Leinart won the job in '06. He was the starter until he was injured in '07. Regardless of whether or not Warner was getting playing time, Leinart was the starter each week until he got hurt during the Rams game. It was Leinart who finished the game vs. the Steelers, not Warner. It was Leinart who continued to start.

Leinart didn't capitalize on EVERY opportunity, but he didn't fail at all of them either.
Yeah, it's one thing to lose it to a first ballot HoFer, but the 2nd time around, when coach tells him that Derek F'Ing Anderson is going to compete for the job, his reaction should have been "bring it!" Instead, he whines to the media that he is being slighted and that it is his job.
Where are the "facts"? All of that is just you filtering 2nd hand information to accommodate your perception.
People can assume that Matty was replaced by Max Hall, but the fact of the matter is Matty destroyed his own career based on his own behavior and lack of preparation.
Again, you've ended his career based on information that you don't actually have. I know many around here embrace the idea that he didn't work hard but rumors and innuendo don't equal facts. For example, in '07 both he and Warner had come into camp in the best shape of their careers. Both had worked their butts off to get ready for the season.
Leinart is bad because Leinart is mentally weak.
Fact or hyperbole?
I also want to read a report which talks about Leinart being discussed in any trade or acquisition if he becomes a free agent. Seattle has been talked about, but that's only because Carrol is there. There are sources everywhere which leak this kind of information.
You believe the rumors about Kolb but not the rumors about Leinart. Facts? I'd settle for consistency.
But the answer is no. It doesnt say anything about his real value. His real value is what the outcome of the transaction is.
Now, imagine if you applied that same logic to Leinart, like you do with Kolb.
Yes it was considering up until the 3rd preseason game, they looked to be neck and neck.
Again, perception vs. reality. Not a fact.
to the fact that Leinart simply is a bad quarterback?
You really seem to think that if you say something it becomes a fact. But, I didn't even ignore this supposed fact, I addressed it and disagreed with it.
Your agenda is to rip Whiz apart. You've demonstrated that in your contrived example of Beanie.
Another "fact" formed from the ether of your misinformed perception. Just because you miss the point and then form an opinion based on that presumption, doesn't mean you now have a fact.
But to continue to believe that there is this conspiracy going on that Whiz cut Leinart for personal reasons is simply baseless.
No, it isn't baseless. I presented various reasons and statistics that show it to be a valid possibility.
Because there is too much evidence based on his attitude over the preseason that he wasn't tough enough to handle pressure,
NOT factual. NO evidence offered by you. His play on the field completely contradicts what you're arguing. His actual performance being the only tangible evidence we have to work with. Interpretation of quotes and rumors are not facts and those are what your opinion is based on.
He should have taken the high road, like McNabb is doing in Washington with the John Beck quotes. Instead, he comes off as infantile.
This isn't a fact either. That you're using McNabb as an example of how a QB should handle his affairs is a bit humorous considering the quagmire that he's always in. But you are still assuming a great deal with your statement. When Leinart complained to the media, how do you even know what his agenda was at that point? I can certainly imagine that he had had all he wanted at that point and was motivated to get out of Arizona. Perhaps his comments were calculated? Ever consider that?
Whiz gave him countless opportunities
I can count pretty high. Right into the teens if I take off my socks. Are you sure "countless" is factual, or just more exaggeration and hyperbole? Should I acknowledge it or just ignore it?
and was with him for four years.
'07, '08, '09...wait a minute, let me take off my socks. Hmmm. Leinart wasn't with the Cardinals any of the '10 regular season. NFL.com has him on the Texans roster in '10. So, was he with Whis for 4 years? Does the offseason count as a year? See how what you assume can't be taken by everyone else as a "fact"?
Whiz may not be infallible, but he is certainly not dumb. People need to put their torches and pitchforks down and remember that Whiz is the only coach in AZ Cardinals history to have two division championships and a conference championship to go with.
This tangent had absolutely nothing to do with anything but even this, I didn't ignore. I asked you who had claimed Whis was dumb. You didn't answer. I'm not even sure why you brought it up in the first place.
I hate to say it like this, but the facts have been conveyed to you several times.
And, we'll circle back to this idea that is, like most of what you've written, completely devoid of fact. Which I didn't ignore.
 

Cardiac

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Damn...that's twice this week I've been called out on my hardheaded personality.

Get a clue, TJ :D

Moklerman is definitely entitled to his own opinion (just like anyone); however, it is quite irritating when someone conveniently overlooks facts in order to fulfill an agenda.

I digress. Matt Leinart isnt on the team and it is useless to even revisit tht situation. I wish him luck in the future, but he burned his own bridges while he was here and that's that.

Lets focus on the present and future. I NEED MORE KEVIN KOLB THREADS!!!!!

Wasn't my intention to call you out, I fully agree with you.

To me it's fairly simple. ML didn't get it done or Whiz hates players for no reason accept he is a petty man with hate issues. I think I will go with option number 1. It's not as fun as a conspiracy theory but I don't see any grassy knoll's myself.
 

Duckjake

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Wasn't my intention to call you out, I fully agree with you.

To me it's fairly simple. ML didn't get it done or Whiz hates players for no reason accept he is a petty man with hate issues. I think I will go with option number 1. It's not as fun as a conspiracy theory but I don't see any grassy knoll's myself.

Option #3. CKW has problems in evaluation of QBs that fit his system. I'll go with that one considering who he has brought in to play QB.
 

moklerman

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Wasn't my intention to call you out, I fully agree with you.

To me it's fairly simple. ML didn't get it done or Whiz hates players for no reason accept he is a petty man with hate issues. I think I will go with option number 1. It's not as fun as a conspiracy theory but I don't see any grassy knoll's myself.
So is everything in your life so cut and dried? Only two options for every situation? Seems a bit irrational to me, but if it works for you, more power to you.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Option #3. CKW has problems in evaluation of QBs that fit his system. I'll go with that one considering who he has brought in to play QB.

Option #4. CKW was blindsided by the retirement of Warner, and #7, his backup, was forced on him. While CKW wanted to get Bulger, he was left to fend with the pu pu platter, and his qb evaluation skills are yet to be determined, until he actually gets a QB he desires. (see Rothlesberger, Ben - Warner,Kurt)
 

Duckjake

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Option #4. CKW was blindsided by the retirement of Warner, and #7, his backup, was forced on him. While CKW wanted to get Bulger, he was left to fend with the pu pu platter, and his qb evaluation skills are yet to be determined, until he actually gets a QB he desires. (see Rothlesberger, Ben - Warner,Kurt)

I might be inclined to agree if CKW hadn't thought Brian St.Pierre was good enough to challenge for the #2 spot the year before or replacing BSP with Max Hall last year.

Because of the BSP situation in 2009 I don't buy the premise that #7 was forced on CKW. If BSP hadn't been so awful #7 might have been #3 or released in 2009.

We could argue about the points that are nothing but speculation, Warner's retirement blindsiding CKW or his wanting Bulger but not being allowed to get him, for the rest of the month. But that has already been beaten to death.
 

desertdawg

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I might be inclined to agree if CKW hadn't thought Brian St.Pierre was good enough to challenge for the #2 spot the year before or replacing BSP with Max Hall last year.

I read this and just for Derecks and giggles I googled Max Hall 2011 offseason. :D

This "piece" has popped up on a couple sites, I guess 10 pounds is a big whoop and the last sentence really had me rollin.


If the Cardinals were planning to give one of their current QBs a shot to be a No. 1 again in '11, Hall has the most upside over both John Skelton and Derek Anderson.
 

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I read this and just for Derecks and giggles I googled Max Hall 2011 offseason. :D

This "piece" has popped up on a couple sites, I guess 10 pounds is a big whoop and the last sentence really had me rollin.


If the Cardinals were planning to give one of their current QBs a shot to be a No. 1 again in '11, Hall has the most upside over both John Skelton and Derek Anderson.
Why do you laugh, I hear he is drinking milk. :) Hall is so bad ASFN doesn't have even one apologist for him anymore.
 

Duckjake

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I read this and just for Derecks and giggles I googled Max Hall 2011 offseason. :D

This "piece" has popped up on a couple sites, I guess 10 pounds is a big whoop and the last sentence really had me rollin.


If the Cardinals were planning to give one of their current QBs a shot to be a No. 1 again in '11, Hall has the most upside over both John Skelton and Derek Anderson.

That has to be one of the funniest things I've read this offseason. It doesn't matter how much weight Hall puts on. I think he's just one of those guys who gets knocked down and hurt easily. 14 sacks in only 78 attempts!

As I've said before it's why almost every High School team had some guy 5'7" 135lbs who just knocked the snot out of people and you couldn't knock down with 3 guys. Hall is just the opposite. Must be a combination of center of gravity and mass or something.
 

moklerman

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Option #4. CKW was blindsided by the retirement of Warner, and #7, his backup, was forced on him. While CKW wanted to get Bulger, he was left to fend with the pu pu platter, and his qb evaluation skills are yet to be determined, until he actually gets a QB he desires. (see Rothlesberger, Ben - Warner,Kurt)
Blindsided? Really? Do you think that little of Whis' ability to judge a situation?
 

Mulli

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Blindsided? Really? Do you think that little of Whis' ability to judge a situation?
Seriously. I am thinking there was about a 10% chance Warner played that second year of his contract. At least I saw it coming all the way from Chicago.
 

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Blindsided? Really? Do you think that little of Whis' ability to judge a situation?

Maybe he wasn't shocked, but why sign a 2 year deal?

Let's assume the Cards lose the game to GB, and Warner never takes the shot he does against the Saints. Do you honestly think he retires after the best game of his life? I don't see it as that likely. The writing was on the wall after the Saints game, but I doubt it was determined before then.
 

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I might be inclined to agree if CKW hadn't thought Brian St.Pierre was good enough to challenge for the #2 spot the year

Considering his competition, maybe he was.

before or replacing BSP with Max Hall last year.

Again, varying levels of crap.

Because of the BSP situation in 2009 I don't buy the premise that #7 was forced on CKW.

Considering his draft position, salary, other available options, and flickers of promise in the past, there was no way CKW was giving up on Matt, whether he wanted to or not.


. But that has already been beaten to death.

Yeah, an offseason with a potential lockout and nothing else to discuss has definitely turned into a mental masturbation-fest.
 

moklerman

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Maybe he wasn't shocked, but why sign a 2 year deal?

Let's assume the Cards lose the game to GB, and Warner never takes the shot he does against the Saints. Do you honestly think he retires after the best game of his life? I don't see it as that likely. The writing was on the wall after the Saints game, but I doubt it was determined before then.
Why a two year deal? To spread out the signing bonus. Would he have retired after the GB game? I can't answer that one but I can envision him wanting to go out on top.

With Boldin leaving at the end of that season I think Warner was going to follow though. It certainly seems that a big part of Warner coming back was having Boldin there in '09.

But you say the writing was on the wall after the NO game. And I think we can all assume that Warner talked to the Cardinals during that offseason too. I would be hard pressed to believe that he was telling them "I'm coming back, I'm coming back" and then bam! "I quit". They had to know that he was on the fence at best.

But I also think the plan was that Leinart's ready to get his shot. That they didn't pursue any FA QB's to replace Warner because the plan wasn't to replace Warner, it was to back up Leinart.

And, just to continue with the guessing game, my guess is that Warner would have been more inclined to come back if Leinart's contract wasn't at a pivotal stage or if they had traded him away. I think that Warner thought that it was a good time for him to retire. The Cardinals had to know what they were going to get from Leinart and it was the year to do it before his contract ballooned.

If Warner played out his contract, he would leave the Cardinals with no QB. He would be retired and Leinart's contract would escalate to an unworkable number for a guy that was still unproven(assuming Warner played most of '10).

I admit that I was surprised by Warner not playing out the last year because I thought he would consider the weak NFC West yet another opportunity at the post season. But the pressure he felt that he had to play perfect football for the Cardinals to have a chance apparently got to him. When that was combined with that last hit, the significant overhaul in personnel happening in '10 and it being the last chance for the Cardinals to see what they had with Leinart all added up to him calling it quits.
 

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Considering his competition, maybe he was.



Again, varying levels of crap.



Considering his draft position, salary, other available options, and flickers of promise in the past, there was no way CKW was giving up on Matt, whether he wanted to or not.




Yeah, an offseason with a potential lockout and nothing else to discuss has definitely turned into a mental masturbation-fest.

Well except for the last part I disagree with everything you've said. That anyone could think that Brian St.Pierre or Max Hall had the talent to be starters or even #2's in the NFL is just baffling to me.

You did see the results from BSPs one start last season? :barf:
 

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Well except for the last part I disagree with everything you've said. That anyone could think that Brian St.Pierre or Max Hall had the talent to be starters or even #2's in the NFL is just baffling to me.

You did see the results from BSPs one start last season? :barf:

Duck my man. You keep saying this about BSP but I think you took the entire situation to literally, or maybe it was Mitch's ongoing love affair for BSP that sticks in your mind. Whiz promised BSP he could compete for the #2 QB position. He tells everyone gets to compete and playing time is based on performance etc. How does this give you the impression that Whiz wanted BSP as the #2 or as a starter?

BSP was originally brought in to help teach Whiz's offense to the Cards, not as a legit option to be the starter. If Whiz was so high on BSP why didn't he re-sign with last year?

Please name a FA QB available last year that you wanted over DA. Hind sight says just about anyone but honestly who was out there to be had.

Whiz was handed ML and has spent a 5th rd pick on Skelton. DA was expected to sit behind ML last year and be given time to develop and learn the offense. So the numerous horrible QB's that Whiz has screwed up with amounts to?????? Not knowing that when ML had to emerge as a leader he failed miserably and taking the best piece of junk available in last years QB FA class.
 

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Duck my man. You keep saying this about BSP but I think you took the entire situation to literally, or maybe it was Mitch's ongoing love affair for BSP that sticks in your mind. Whiz promised BSP he could compete for the #2 QB position. He tells everyone gets to compete and playing time is based on performance etc. How does this give you the impression that Whiz wanted BSP as the #2 or as a starter?

BSP was originally brought in to help teach Whiz's offense to the Cards, not as a legit option to be the starter. If Whiz was so high on BSP why didn't he re-sign with last year?

Please name a FA QB available last year that you wanted over DA. Hind sight says just about anyone but honestly who was out there to be had.

Whiz was handed ML and has spent a 5th rd pick on Skelton. DA was expected to sit behind ML last year and be given time to develop and learn the offense. So the numerous horrible QB's that Whiz has screwed up with amounts to?????? Not knowing that when ML had to emerge as a leader he failed miserably and taking the best piece of junk available in last years QB FA class.

That has to be the most excuse filled post in ASFN history. CKW kept BSP for two years! The Cards paid BSP a MILLION DOLLARS in 2009! They gave him a $400k raise! But, yeah Whiz knew he was never going to be more than 3rd string.

To think that CKW brought in BSP to teach the offense to Kurt Warner who threw for 27 TDs the season before, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and Edge is laughable.

Who said CKW ruined QBs? I'm saying he can't evaluate QBs. CKW can call plays. He can design an offense but out of the 150 guys he could have brought in to be backups he picked Brian St.Pierre and Max Hall.
 

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So is everything in your life so cut and dried? Only two options for every situation? Seems a bit irrational to me, but if it works for you, more power to you.

Actually I almost never see things as black or white but numerous shades of grey. I was simply stating what I have percieved your opinion of Whiz and how he handled ML from your countless posts on the subject.

So to your point it isn't simply your opinion that Whiz would rather kill the team and a season because he doesn't like ML and mine that ML failed. I do however feel that my opinion is much closer to the truth then yours. ;)
 
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