Kolb v. Leinart

[moklerman]

So to your point it isn't simply your opinion that Whiz would rather kill the team and a season because he doesn't like ML and mine that ML failed. I do however feel that my opinion is much closer to the truth then yours.

I don't really see how. ML outperformed the other QB's on the roster and knew the offense much better than any of them too. Whis still chose to go with 3 terrible options rather than deal with Leinart's personality. That makes it personal, and Whis risked the season on that personal decision. And he came up craps.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I don't really see how. ML outperformed the other QB's on the roster and knew the offense much better than any of them too. Whis still chose to go with 3 terrible options rather than deal with Leinart's personality. That makes it personal, and Whis risked the season on that personal decision. And he came up craps.

Just out of curiosity, did you go to training camp?

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

bottom line, Whis screwed to pooch with ML last season, does anyone here honestly think the team would've finished 5-11 with ML?

IMO, no way it was atleast 8-8 season and another division title...they still could've dumped ML this offseason if he wasn't very good... Signing DA from the get go made my skin crawl and I was livid when reports started surfacing that ML was getting the shaft.

ML may not have great but he would've kept the Cards in games and would've been a safe QB; the book was already out on DA and it was pure HUBRIS of Whis to think he could turn that crap sandwich into filet.

 

[moklerman]

Just out of curiosity, did you go to training camp?

No.

 

[Cardiac]

I don't really see how. ML outperformed the other QB's on the roster and knew the offense much better than any of them too. Whis still chose to go with 3 terrible options rather than deal with Leinart's personality. That makes it personal, and Whis risked the season on that personal decision. And he came up craps.

In your opinion ML out performed the other QB's. You also have zero concern about how ML was perceived by his teammates and is leadership skills on the team. Numerous sources basically called ML captain check down.

The fundamental difference between you and I is that you feel QB's need to be handled with a loving touch so as not to bruise their ego and I don't.

 

[moklerman]

In your opinion ML out performed the other QB's. You also have zero concern about how ML was perceived by his teammates and is leadership skills on the team. Numerous sources basically called ML captain check down.

The fundamental difference between you and I is that you feel QB's need to be handled with a loving touch so as not to bruise their ego and I don't.

Just what was the perception of Warner in 2006 into the 2007 offseason? ML's only shot at winning the team over was on the field. Right? That's true of any QB. Sure, you can find examples of guys being complimented about their off the field activities but no QB is going to win the team until he does it on the field. Warner didn't win the team back until he played with the elbow brace and got the offense clicking. To that point, they didn't even show up at the BBQ he invited them to.

And ML certainly had something to prove. His mop-up time in '08 & '09 was less than spectacular. His start against Tennessee was fine and he outplayed Warner in the NE blizzard but his errors were certainly standing out more than those limited successes.

But he was deep into Warner's shadow during the '10 preseason and he had never looked comfortable under Whis. Dude was a mess who was really "gripping it". Looked a lot like Warner in NY. Just out of his rhythm and trying not to make mistakes. The only way to solve that is to play through it and get better. Get looser. But Whis took that away from him in the preseason and cut him before any real games were played.

And, I don't think QB's need to be handled with a loving touch, I think there are different ways to motivate all players. Each player responds differently to different types of motivation. Some need to be challenged, others need to be supported and everything in between. It really shouldn't be a revelation to hear that positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement both have their merits depending on the situation.

The Mike Ditka/Bill Parcells method is not the only approach and it can certainly be argued that their approach quickly wears thin. Tony Dungy and Dick Vermeil had just as much success and seemed to be a little more adaptive to their players.

With Leinart, it is my opinion that the "get in your face" "do it right you POS" approach was just not the way to go with him. Not every QB is going to thrive in every environment and ML and Whis just did not mix. The reason it's so disappointing for me is because I really thought that was Whis' greatest attribute as a coach.

Knowing how to motivate and challenge each player in the way that they needed to be. But he really got the ML situation wrong. I don't think there's any argument that he didn't get the best out of Leinart.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

No.

Hilarious that you continue to pontificate about how much he out performed the other qb's when you missed the lion's share of what was going on. Essentially, you're hanging your hat on his performance vs. the others in the preseason games, which was essentially a wash. And please don't bring up QB rating or the rest of the BS, it doesn't matter when you can move the ball, let alone sustain drives for scores.

 

[moklerman]

Hilarious that you continue to pontificate about how much he out performed the other qb's when you missed the lion's share of what was going on. Essentially, you're hanging your hat on his performance vs. the others in the preseason games, which was essentially a wash. And please don't bring up QB rating or the rest of the BS, it doesn't matter when you can move the ball, let alone sustain drives for scores.

Isn't that what it comes down to though? Performance on the field?

And if you're going to argue that their respective performances were a wash then I have to assume you have very different views on what a QB should be doing.

But I wouldn't restrict my opinion of the situation to rely solely on the stats, but that's a pretty easy indicator when the numbers are so drastic. But I saw what Leinart was doing and how he played and it clearly resembled real game situations much more than what Anderson and Hall were doing.

And what's BS is your assertion that Leinart couldn't move the ball, sustain drives or score points. Did he score a TD every time he was on the field? No. But the continued claims by you and others that he didn't throw a TD, get a first down or any of the other PURE FABRICATIONS discredit any opinion you have on the subject. You're clearly misrepresenting the situation and trying to force your opinion rather than acknowledging even the factual, statistical information that's out there.

How can one be expected to consider your view of what was going on in training camp(assuming you were there, I don't remember if you said you went) if you are so wrong about the things that actually happened on the playing field?

Again, ML had a lot to prove but I saw a guy who was standing in the pocket taking hits and completing passes during the preseason. He was extending plays, being smart with the ball and completing passes. He was doing some good things and doing them much better than DA or MH. Sure, DA completed a couple of passes down the seam that looked pretty but did anyone think he was going to have that kind of time and looks down the field based on what the Cardinals had done in recent times?

No, Leinart was the one who was performing under duress and getting better as the preseason went along. He wasn't turning it over and he was giving his guys opportunities to make plays.

But he also wasn't being given much playing time. Which is one of the big hangups I have with the situation.

Overall, Whis needed to just give Leinart his shot, see if he could grow out of his recent struggles to the high-potential guy he was in '06 and see if he could stay healthy and played well enough to warrant the escalators ready to happen with his contract post '10.

Was he a prima-donna? Probably. He's called Hollywood for a reason but that wouldn't have mattered if he played well enough for the Cardinals to win games. Now, if you're telling me he was Vince Young/Ryan Leaf loco and couldn't be trusted to the point that he had to be cut for the good of the team, that's a horse of a different feather. But I haven't heard anything along those lines.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Isn't that what it comes down to though? Performance on the field?

Performance on the field is the most important factor. Sadly, if that's all you're basing your opinion on, your argument is on a very tenuous foundation. I think you'll see outside the most fervent of #7 fanboys, most we're completely underwhelmed with Leinart's performance in the preseason, and justifiably so.

Further, if you HAD been to training camp, scrimmages, etc, you would have seen how ineffective he was, and how he didn't manage at all to stand out against weak competition. Unfortunately you didn't, and base your entire opinion on Matt's uninspiring preseason, and turn it into something personal with the head coach.

 

[moklerman]

Performance on the field is the most important factor. Sadly, if that's all you're basing your opinion on, your argument is on a very tenuous foundation. I think you'll see outside the most fervent of #7 fanboys, most we're completely underwhelmed with Leinart's performance in the preseason, and justifiably so.

Further, if you HAD been to training camp, scrimmages, etc, you would have seen how ineffective he was, and how he didn't manage at all to stand out against weak competition. Unfortunately you didn't, and base your entire opinion on Matt's uninspiring preseason, and turn it into something personal with the head coach.

Are these the same people that thought DA was a better option?

Marc Bulger used to look GREAT in practice all the time. Are you saying that you value what happens in practice more than you value what happens on the field? And I could care less about what "experts" in the media are saying about how a player is playing in games. I can see that for myself and trust my perception better than theirs in most cases.

These are all the same experts who said Warner was finished and all the same experts who usually do very little in the way of actually watching what's going on.

But, just as you said all the same types of things when the Warner/Leinart debates were going and dismissed my opinions as fanboy/manlove drivel, we'll have to see. I'm up 1 to nothing on you for now though.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'm up 1 to nothing on you for now though.

Lol, keep reaching for the stars!

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[moklerman]

Joke if you want, but I was right and you were wrong. Don't act as if you don't care. You waste just as much time arguing about these things as I do.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Joke if you want, but I was right and you were wrong.

Proving again why the picture is so wonderfully apt. Right about what? What exactly are you keeping score with here? Who is judging this? You've gotten a bit bizarre about this whole discussion...

Don't act as if you don't care.

Care about what? Going back and forth with a qb fanboy about his flame de jour? All fun, although it has become tedious at this point.

 

[THESMEL]

Wow

Our players and coach were all stupid is as stupid does. Just look at us.

Cutting Leinart for DA and Hall was the worse personell move I ever witnessed, And i was a Browns fan before the Cards came to AZ!

Leinart was making great progress under Denny, had a lot of rookie records!
Playing Kurt was the right thing to do, after Leinart got hurt. But splitting the snaps before that in 2007... with only 2 QB's on the roster... Well how has the ever worked out for any rookie HC, or any team?

I can't believe some forget as soon as it happens, does anybody remember Tim and Tim off the streets in 2007? This aint the first QB cheeze Whiz in AZ, He's horrible at QB development, cut throat and never lets any player get "comfortable"

All great teams and coaches have some comfortable players, and they don't toss em under the bus after a season, every unit on every side of the ball failed, that don't point to JUST THE PLAYERS!

And ASU CHRIS, I was not underwhelmed with ML, I cried stupidity at the top of my lungs, and you kicked me for it, and rallied others to calling me a puke and worse.

Many fans , these players and staff IGNORED the best stats in the NFL preseason and dogpiled Leinart, still haven't learned with hude proof! Still doing it! I don't know what the hell you were watching?

All while the HC put Matt in the worst possible situation to succeed! And bragged about it, along with the sorry AZ team mates! like DD.

I'll go back 2 years and remind all, I said pay Matty 100 mill for 6 years, and ride that horse, live and die with him. Thats the backing and confidence a Great QB needs to do well in this NFL. Kevin Kolb will never be the QB Matty will be, or has been.

You can throw all the stats you want out about Leinart vs. Kolb and they are meaningless. The reason Leinart was let go is the players, for the most part, didn't like him and he didn't put in the work. Kolb has a sterling reputation with his teammates and a great work ethic.

It seems many want to blame Whiz for Leinart's demise when ML has no one to blame but himself. All he had to do was put in the effort. Whiz named him the starter, not once, BUT TWICE, and still he couldn't get motivated enough to work at it. That's why he lost his job. The players and staff all saw it. As bad as the QB play was last year, I have yet to hear of one player come out in ML's defense. If Kolb fails, and he might, I doubt it will be from lack of effort.

 

[O]

I'll go back 2 years and remind all, I said pay Matty 100 mill for 6 years, and ride that horse, live and die with him. Thats the backing and confidence a Great QB needs to do well in this NFL. Kevin Kolb will never be the QB Matty will be, or has been.

How can we go back two years?
You've only been a member here since May of 2010.

Thanks for the laughs though.

 

[TJ]

I'm up 1 to nothing on you for now though.

I leave this thread for four days, come back and this is what you've resorted to? Personal score tallying for a message board argument?

I havent seen you this upset since the Warner/Leinart debate in 2008, when you were vehemently bashing Leinart to make your point for Warner.

But alas, you are defending Leinart as if he was your first born.

At least you admit you're wasting time on this subject. Like that one response where you had to have spent hours dissecting all of my posts from this thread. Are you OCD? Looks that way. I tried reading that and got a headache.

I'll give you an "A" for effort, since we're now keeping score.

 

[THESMEL]

well

Yea you'll have to go to Profootballcentral.com or the cards main site. PFC has a lot of my strong opinions as a Cards writer from well before the SB until, well when I blew a gasket, last year and became so disgruntled with My Cardinals.

I was and am a very positive fan, if not the most positive Card fan. but If I lie and say I like the way we handled , Deuce, Lyle, Breaston and Patrick not to mention, Q, Dansby, Rolle, Wells and Leinart, well I would be even worse than what some call me all ready.

I am not indifferent, I'm fanatic, and I've said what i meant even in the great times, like the way we treated Edge, Eric Green, LD, BJ and others.
I wish i was more popular, but hey We did well on Free agents, NOT, nor the draft or player development.

When I see something I like, I'll say it again, I really want too, like before. But this is a tragedy, a young SB team getting wrecked, and if they haven't got a clue as i suspect, It is even worse!

None have to suffer me, they can put me on the ignore list or turn a blind eye. But this front office and staff sucks really bad since Denny left. by the record anyhow, just look at the transaction log from then to now.


There is no QB Whiz could be happy with, He threw Big Ben under the bus after a SB win. Well the Bus actually got carry's, unlike beanie. I bet Whiz have started THT over Bettis too! freaking tool.

How can we go back two years?
You've only been a member here since May of 2010.

Thanks for the laughs though.

 

[O]

Have you ever thought of taking your act on the road?

I would highly recommend it.

 

[THESMEL]

no

No actually, I have not, I'm not acting I'm that silly willy. besides I just told you its all over a national website... before it happened just like before the SB happened, I started i the off season QB contest when Matt came back from injury as a starter! And Kurt earned it.

So you like the way these guys were treated, you like our FA's? drafts? 1st round draft picks underachieving? Why did Kurt go to visit the Niners? that was a QB mess too! Whiz had control over that QB mess too.


You think Da and hall were better than Leinart? DD deserved a top contract after his career stats and stupidity off the field?

but overall do you think the Cardinals are gonna regroup from the 2010 mess? It started at Nawlings with 6 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. They lost all will, integrity and dignity, gave up in a divisional playoff game!

Like we get there every year or something!

Have you ever thought of taking your act on the road?

I would highly recommend it.

 

[O]

Once Matt had his shoulder injury in St Louis he was never the same player and he never will be.

Your man crush is beyond creepy, it's obsessive.

You make Andrew look normal and that is quite an accomplishment!

 

[moklerman]

Proving again why the picture is so wonderfully apt. Right about what? What exactly are you keeping score with here? Who is judging this? You've gotten a bit bizarre about this whole discussion...

Care about what? Going back and forth with a qb fanboy about his flame de jour? All fun, although it has become tedious at this point.

Luckily it doesn't take much for you to play dumb.

All you've got to offer is changing the subject and casting insults. You were wrong about Warner and you don't have the balls to just admit I was right and take my opinion seriously about Leinart.

Score? Judging? You can't figure out for yourself if Warner was the right choice at QB? You somehow don't understand that's what was being talked about? You find it tedious? I find you futile. You clearly don't deserve the time and courtesy I have given you. You were wrong about Warner and have no cause to be arrogant when it comes to talking about the QB situation.

It would be one thing if you were just stupid or ignorant but you choose to be obtuse and offensive. That is how you present yourself and represent the team you follow and it's sad.

I havent seen you this upset since the Warner/Leinart debate in 2008, when you were vehemently bashing Leinart to make your point for Warner.

Are you really that dense? I was the one who was right about the situation and just like now, no matter how much time I spend trying to illustrate my opinion, there are those like you who just refuse to acknowledge it and resort to the drivel you're posting.

By the way, I'm not upset I'm just not opposed to pointing out all of the lies and errors presented by people.

Like that one response where you had to have spent hours dissecting all of my posts from this thread.

Which completely refuted your claim. Which was the point. You tried to paint the picture that you were on the side of the righteous, backed by facts that I just chose to ignore. While in reality, it was the furthest thing from the truth and after 4 days, you chose to ignore everything I pointed out and just go for more insults.

Don't worry though. I know it's because you actually have nothing relevant to say and it's all you've got to try and save face. I agree that you should stay out of the football talk, it's not your strong point. Why don't you go play with the emoticons or something shiny?

I'll give you an "A" for effort, since we're now keeping score.

So both of you are really trying to say that no one around here keeps track of who said what about each situation? Yeah, right. The fact of the matter is, all of you geniuses who are so smart and know the Cardinals and know football so much better than me and want to paint me as having any variety of mental issues were the one's who were wrong. Instead of taking your medicine(before you get your panties in knot, that's just a phrase. I would like to give you the benefit of doubt for understand a turn of phrase but the fixation you displayed with the hypothetical tally and tangent that it sent you on eliminates that assumption on my part.) and just admitting that I wasn't part of the lunatic fringe and knew what I was talking about, you have to resort to more name calling.

Please don't respond. Just think about it. Rise above your instinct and be classy.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Luckily it doesn't take much for you to play dumb.

All you've got to offer is changing the subject and casting insults.

It would be one thing if you were just stupid or ignorant but you choose to be obtuse and offensive. That is how you present yourself and represent the team you follow and it's sad.

Rise above your instinct and be classy.

lol, you're really running the gamut here! Sounds like someone is getting a little sand in their, well, let's just say you're getting a little irritable. From my understanding, personal insults are a bannable offense, let's see if that gets enforced.

You were wrong about Warner and you don't have the balls to just admit I was right and take my opinion seriously about Leinart.

Man, your delusions get stranger and stranger. Please provide concrete evidence where I was "wrong" about Warner. I was one of his biggest advocates, (not in a creepy stalker kind of way, but I digress...) and was stunned the last couple offseasons when people wanted him to go away for ol #7.

Further, do you honestly think it's a matter of machismo regarding Leinart? I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics it takes to convince you of it, but I applaud them. It's terrifyingly impressive. What you fail to grasp is, it's not a matter of taking your opinion seriously about Leinart. I take it serious as sin. I just think your opinion is insanely idiotic, just like Smel, and every other fanboy who can't see the writing on the wall.

Will I be the first in line to eat crow if he turns into a decent NFL starter? Hell yeah, but until then, he's a bust and a failure. I don't see how that's so difficult for you to grasp.

Score? Judging? You can't figure out for yourself if Warner was the right choice at QB? You somehow don't understand that's what was being talked about? You find it tedious? I find you futile. You clearly don't deserve the time and courtesy I have given you. You were wrong about Warner and have no cause to be arrogant when it comes to talking about the QB situation.

Uh, MM, I'll be nice about this, my confusion is due to your delusion. As previously stated, I was a huge Warner supporter, and am still pissed he decided to step down last year. He was clearly the straw that stirred the drink, and made both the offense and defense better. Get your facts straight, you're clearly confusing me for someone else, and continue to embarrass yourself by misrepresenting me and my position.

ASUCHRIS 1 - MM- 0

 

[TJ]

lol, you're really running the gamut here! Sounds like someone is getting a little sand in their, well, let's just say you're getting a little irritable. From my understanding, personal insults are a bannable offense, let's see if that gets enforced.




Man, your delusions get stranger and stranger. Please provide concrete evidence where I was "wrong" about Warner. I was one of his biggest advocates, (not in a creepy stalker kind of way, but I digress...) and was stunned the last couple offseasons when people wanted him to go away for ol #7.

Further, do you honestly think it's a matter of machismo regarding Leinart? I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics it takes to convince you of it, but I applaud them. It's terrifyingly impressive. What you fail to grasp is, it's not a matter of taking your opinion seriously about Leinart. I take it serious as sin. I just think your opinion is insanely idiotic, just like Smel, and every other fanboy who can't see the writing on the wall.

Will I be the first in line to eat crow if he turns into a decent NFL starter? Hell yeah, but until then, he's a bust and a failure. I don't see how that's so difficult for you to grasp.



Uh, MM, I'll be nice about this, my confusion is due to your delusion. As previously stated, I was a huge Warner supporter, and am still pissed he decided to step down last year. He was clearly the straw that stirred the drink, and made both the offense and defense better. Get your facts straight, you're clearly confusing me for someone else, and continue to embarrass yourself by misrepresenting me and my position.

ASUCHRIS 1 - MM- 0

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[moklerman]

lol, you're really running the gamut here! Sounds like someone is getting a little sand in their, well, let's just say you're getting a little irritable. From my understanding, personal insults are a bannable offense, let's see if that gets enforced.

I hadn't thought of that. Thank you for equating yourself to a grain of sand. I think it's appropriate.

Man, your delusions get stranger and stranger. Please provide concrete evidence where I was "wrong" about Warner.

Sorry, I haven't been saving message board posts from every member for the last 5 years. Are you really claiming that you were in favor of Warner over Leinart in '07?

Will I be the first in line to eat crow if he turns into a decent NFL starter? Hell yeah, but until then, he's a bust and a failure. I don't see how that's so difficult for you to grasp.

Difficult is an understatement when it comes to imagining you admitting you were wrong. What you don't seem to grasp is that I haven't claimed Leinart to be anything. I think the book is still open on him. I also thinks it's downright moronic to consider him a bust when it was Whis and the Cardinals who didn't let him play. Leaf was a bust and he proved it on the field and off. Leinart hasn't been given the opportunity to start since 2007. You're basing your opinions about a guy who hasn't got to play!

As previously stated, I was a huge Warner supporter, and am still pissed he decided to step down last year. He was clearly the straw that stirred the drink, and made both the offense and defense better.

I recall those of us who were for Warner starting to be a very small group. Even before Leinart got to the Cardinals. I don't recall you EVER lobbying or defending the idea for Warner to start back then. I'd even be happy to take a look back at those posts to rekindle my memory and make sure I'm not mistaking you for one of the many others who were firmly against Warner starting but the search feature only goes back to early 2010.

Let's just say that it would take "hard evidence" to convince me that you were in favor of...no, a "huge supporter" of Warner when the Cardinals drafted Leinart.

But your example is just par for the course. I mention early '07 and you offer '09. Of course you were a Warner supporter then. You'd be a fool not to be.

 

[john h]

And the lessen here is: Don't go to press with your grievances. Whiz has an open door policy. Be a man and speak to him face to face. It's not rocket surgery.

I would think most coaches would not tolerate any player publicly calling him out day after day. It would create problems in the clubhouse and perhaps no matter how good the player might be he would likely be gone. For better or worse. I think most any of us who have a boss know better to openly criticize him else we are gone the next day.