Kolb's Not Going Anywhere

[Cbus cardsfan]

It was not even 1 quarter of the 1st of 5 pre-season games. No conclusions can, or shoud be, drawn. Skelton looked better but so did Chase Daniel and he's basically Max Hall in a pass happy system. Game 4 will tell us who is the QB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Wow. And the excuses continue. 'Well, Kolb is the better QB, but Skelton is the better FIT for our team'. Baloney. If Skelton is better for our team than Kolb (and you guys are the ones saying it), then Skelton is the better QB of the two.

By every QB metric, Kolb is better. John Skelton is a smidge better than John Navarre, quit kidding yourself.

But Kolb can't stay healthy; availability is the most important part of playing in the. NFL.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think it would be easier to judge if both QBs received the same protection but that clearly was not the case. Kolb gets happy feet, but this was a case of awful protection not Kolb's lack of pocket awareness.

 

[Duckjake]

By every QB metric, Kolb is better. John Skelton is a smidge better than John Navarre, quit kidding yourself.

But Kolb can't stay healthy; availability is the most important part of playing in the. NFL.

Only if you just look at the numbers.

Arm strength: Skelton
Pocket presence: Skelton
Running/escapability: Skelton
Size/ability to see over the linemen: Skelton

Regardless, Kolb is not a good QB. Watching coaches film of him vs the Vikings, Giants, Steelers and Ravens verifies that. He doesn't have top tier or really even average physical talent, has a goofy throwing motion and makes horrible decisions.

Remember the pass Sunday that Bartel threw to Floyd who was covered as Housler came wide open Sunday? Kolb did that several times in the Steelers game alone.

Meanwhile Skelton has real problems throwing the football too high and sometimes too wide. Bartel just goes off the deep end and turns spastic after looking good for a few plays, and Lindley, besides being a rookie, is even more inaccurate than Skelton.

We're doomed.

 

[az240zz]

Agreed on the play selection it goes back to what I said about if you commit to Skelton do it soon and tailor the offense tohim. that would include run more, and when you do throw let him use that big arm to stretch the field.

Since Warner left has Whis tailored any offense to his QB??

 

[Russ Smith]

After watching the video it appears that Levi's guy (#91) brings the initial pressure after beating Levi with an inside move and its the first guy Kolb sees when he looks back to his left. It appears that LSH is trying to chip him or at least impede him. Had Kolb stayed in the pocket he would have been flattened by #91. After that it all falls apart as no one holds their blocks.

Now what makes me wonder is does Kolb have a total lack of confidence in his OL and Levi in particular because that is the first place he looked and here comes old #91 barreling down on him.

I think Kolb expects some measure of protection from his line which I think one should expect since it's their job to block.

My guess is during his NFL career Levi has gotten really adept at yelling "look out" as his man goes by him to the QB.

 

[Stout]

By every QB metric, Kolb is better. John Skelton is a smidge better than John Navarre, quit kidding yourself.

But Kolb can't stay healthy; availability is the most important part of playing in the. NFL.

I'm not arguing that in this thread. I just think it's silly for people to claim Kolb is better but Skelton is a better fit. I'm just commenting on how silly that is.

 

[Mitch]

I'm not arguing that in this thread. I just think it's silly for people to claim Kolb is better but Skelton is a better fit. I'm just commenting on how silly that is.

Agreed, Stout.

How about this QB metric?: Kolb 6-11, Skelton 8-4.

How about arm strength QB metric?

How about size and strength metric? Kolb--6-3/218, Skelton 6-6/244.

Speaking of metrics---how about the one ESPN Science did on Skelton?

How about comfortability in the pocket metric?

 

[JeffGollin]

I'm not arguing that in this thread. I just think it's silly for people to claim Kolb is better but Skelton is a better fit. I'm just commenting on how silly that is.

The CW is that Kolb came out of a west coast system (with 3-step drops/get rid of the ball fast). The Cardinal offensive system appears to be more vertical (with longer drops and more deep throws).

It is possible that Kolb might be better able to rack up bigger stats in a west coast system, but Skelton's bigger size and arm-strength might enable him to rack up better stats in a vertical game.

Kolb might be better for the number of clubs who play "west coast." But Skelton's skill set might fit a vertical scheme better.

Capiche?

 

[kerouac9]

The CW is that Kolb came out of a west coast system (with 3-step drops/get rid of the ball fast). The Cardinal offensive system appears to be more vertical (with longer drops and more deep throws).

It is possible that Kolb might be better able to rack up bigger stats in a west coast system, but Skelton's bigger size and arm-strength might enable him to rack up better stats in a vertical game.

Kolb might be better for the number of clubs who play "west coast." But Skelton's skill set might fit a vertical scheme better.

Capiche?

I don't see any evidence of this. If anything, we're running more of a run-and-shoot system where we run a ton of crossing patterns and option routes based on the coverage, and it's up to the quarterback to get the ball out.

The problem with Kolb is that he's--like Max Hall before him and Rob Johnson in Buffalo--unable to punish teams for bringing unbalanced blitzes by getting the ball to the uncovered man. In both the WCO and the run-and-shoot the QB is expected to throw the ball to a spot expecting the receiver to be in position to run after the catch.

 

[40yearfan]

I'm not sure that you understand what the word "compare" means, 40. Why do I think that? Because you explicitly compare the guys in this very paragraph.



P.S., Warner was making more money that Leinart in 2008. Don't tell anyone, or your whole argument will fall apart. Also, Kolb is making four times in salary and some 18 times total compensation what Skelton is making in 2012. I think that's a consideration that gets made, especially when Kolb is Whis's hand-picked champion. This isn't Whis choosing between two guys that Denny brought in.

Pure BS K9. Don't try to re-write history to support your opinion. Lienart was tagged as the starter and Warner took the job away from him. That's why I say if Skelton outplays Kolb, Whis will once again make a change and put Skelton in there. He will always play the best player regardless of salary.

 

[kerouac9]

Pure BS K9. Don't try to re-write history to support your opinion. Lienart was tagged as the starter and Warner took the job away from him. That's why I say if Skelton outplays Kolb, Whis will once again make a change and put Skelton in there. He will always play the best player regardless of salary.

Sigh.

The facts are in this very thread. Look at the productivity of Warner versus Leinart, even as starters. The "QB competition" from the outside was already completely settled on Hardy Drive. You don't think the coaching staff fully expected Warner to outwork and outplay Matt Leinart based on the evidence of the season before? Whisenhunt's support of Leinart had been tepid since his hiring, when Leinart openly lobbied for the hiring of Norm Chow or Pete Carrol and then flagged down Whis out the window of his limo on South Beach at the Super Bowl that February.

You must have a really low opinion of our coaching staff.

 

[40yearfan]

Sigh.

The facts are in this very thread. Look at the productivity of Warner versus Leinart, even as starters. The "QB competition" from the outside was already completely settled on Hardy Drive. You don't think the coaching staff fully expected Warner to outwork and outplay Matt Leinart based on the evidence of the season before? Whisenhunt's support of Leinart had been tepid since his hiring, when Leinart openly lobbied for the hiring of Norm Chow or Pete Carrol and then flagged down Whis out the window of his limo on South Beach at the Super Bowl that February.

You must have a really low opinion of our coaching staff.

No, I have a high opinion and in your zest to prove your point, you have completely overlooked that. I'll say it once again, Whis will play the player who performs better regardless of salary. In my book, that is a major compliment. That's why the talent level on this team keeps getting better. The best players are on the field.

 

[kerouac9]

No, I have a high opinion and in your zest to prove your point, you have completely overlooked that. I'll say it once again, Whis will play the player who performs better regardless of salary. In my book, that is a major compliment. That's why the talent level on this team keeps getting better. The best players are on the field.

Joey Porter disagrees with you. The guy who was starting over the superior Sam Acho until he suffered an injury for the remainder of the season.

Again, Warner was making more money than Matt Leinart when he won the starting job. Most of Leinart's money had come the previous season in the form of signing/roster bonus. So that's a moot point.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your essential harangue, and don't bother actually replying to the specific facts that are inconvenient to that harangue.

 

[40yearfan]

Joey Porter disagrees with you. The guy who was starting over the superior Sam Acho until he suffered an injury for the remainder of the season.

Again, Warner was making more money than Matt Leinart when he won the starting job. Most of Leinart's money had come the previous season in the form of signing/roster bonus. So that's a moot point.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your essential harangue, and don't bother actually replying to the specific facts that are inconvenient to that harangue.

How does any of this have anything to do with my statement. Whis will play the best player regardless of salary. I question your comprehension. Money has nothing to do with it.

 

[kerouac9]

How does any of this have anything to do with my statement. Whis will play the best player regardless of salary. I question your comprehension. Money has nothing to do with it.

Then why was Joey Porter starting ahead of Sam Acho? I think you're mistaken about who has the comprehension gap. Heck, why was Todd Heap starting ahead of Jeff King?

 

[40yearfan]

Then why was Joey Porter starting ahead of Sam Acho? I think you're mistaken about who has the comprehension gap. Heck, why was Todd Heap starting ahead of Jeff King?

Probably because Whis thought they were the better players at the time. You need to remember K9, it's his decision regardless of how you feel about it.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Only if you just look at the numbers.

Arm strength: Skelton
Pocket presence: Skelton
Running/escapability: Skelton
Size/ability to see over the linemen: Skelton

Regardless, Kolb is not a good QB. Watching coaches film of him vs the Vikings, Giants, Steelers and Ravens verifies that. He doesn't have top tier or really even average physical talent, has a goofy throwing motion and makes horrible decisions.

Remember the pass Sunday that Bartel threw to Floyd who was covered as Housler came wide open Sunday? Kolb did that several times in the Steelers game alone.

Meanwhile Skelton has real problems throwing the football too high and sometimes too wide. Bartel just goes off the deep end and turns spastic after looking good for a few plays, and Lindley, besides being a rookie, is even more inaccurate than Skelton.

We're doomed.

Thank you. Give me whatever metrics you want to come up with - when Kolb is in the game, the offense is awful, and we lose, when Skelton is in the game, we can at least move the ball some of the time, and often win.

It's not that we think Skelton is awesome, or even the long term answer, but we know that Kolb isn't, and can't stay healthy enough even if he were the answer.

Time to end the Kolb experiment permanently, and see if Skelton sinks or swims. He'll at least have a fighting chance if we give him all the starter reps and the team can develop chemistry with his style.

If he's awful, draft a qb and start over next year.

 

[kerouac9]

Probably because Whis thought they were the better players at the time. You need to remember K9, it's his decision regardless of how you feel about it.

What a bunch of hogwash. If that's the case, than in your mind the coach is always right and anyone who disagrees with him is always wrong. Whis can be wrong--he clearly was in starting Joey Porter--really in keeping him on the roster at all--over Sam Acho. Porter brought nothing; Acho brought something, and something big.

I don't know why you bother to ask for facts when the only fact that matters to you is what has already happened. If coach says that he'll make the decision regardless of salary, that's good enough for you. It doesn't matter that Whis has erred on the QB position since Warner retired, and to your statement before, since it was clear in 2007 that Warner was the superior quarterback to Leinart, but still elevated Leinart back into the starter's role. So he was wrong in that evaluation, too, and if Leinart hadn't melted down in the Oakland game, then we'd never had made the Super Bowl.

 

[Stout]

The CW is that Kolb came out of a west coast system (with 3-step drops/get rid of the ball fast). The Cardinal offensive system appears to be more vertical (with longer drops and more deep throws).

It is possible that Kolb might be better able to rack up bigger stats in a west coast system, but Skelton's bigger size and arm-strength might enable him to rack up better stats in a vertical game.

Kolb might be better for the number of clubs who play "west coast." But Skelton's skill set might fit a vertical scheme better.

Capiche?

Oh, I understand what people are trying to say, so you didn't need to spell it out for me. I'm just laughing at the sorry excuse people (not you) seem to be using to continue defending Kolb. He's not a good QB in any system, IMO.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

What a bunch of hogwash. If that's the case, than in your mind the coach is always right and anyone who disagrees with him is always wrong. Whis can be wrong--he clearly was in starting Joey Porter--really in keeping him on the roster at all--over Sam Acho. Porter brought nothing; Acho brought something, and something big.

I don't know why you bother to ask for facts when the only fact that matters to you is what has already happened. If coach says that he'll make the decision regardless of salary, that's good enough for you. It doesn't matter that Whis has erred on the QB position since Warner retired, and to your statement before, since it was clear in 2007 that Warner was the superior quarterback to Leinart, but still elevated Leinart back into the starter's role. So he was wrong in that evaluation, too, and if Leinart hadn't melted down in the Oakland game, then we'd never had made the Super Bowl.

Sure you can find a better example than Porter. His role and Acho's fell within Horton's control.

 

[kerouac9]

Sure you can find a better example than Porter. His role and Acho's fell within Horton's control.

Fine. Beanie Wells playing behind Tim Hightower. Brandon Keith starting ahead of Jeremy Bridges. Keith getting benched for poor play one week and then again starting at right tackle again the next week. Max Hall playing ahead of John Skelton.

 

[40yearfan]

What a bunch of hogwash. If that's the case, than in your mind the coach is always right and anyone who disagrees with him is always wrong. Whis can be wrong--he clearly was in starting Joey Porter--really in keeping him on the roster at all--over Sam Acho. Porter brought nothing; Acho brought something, and something big.

That wasn't your decision to make. Apparently Whis felt he was better at that time and played him. Just because you disagree with him don't make him wrong. After all, his opinion counts, yours doesn't.

I don't know why you bother to ask for facts when the only fact that matters to you is what has already happened. If coach says that he'll make the decision regardless of salary, that's good enough for you. It doesn't matter that Whis has erred on the QB position since Warner retired, and to your statement before, since it was clear in 2007 that Warner was the superior quarterback to Leinart, but still elevated Leinart back into the starter's role. So he was wrong in that evaluation, too, and if Leinart hadn't melted down in the Oakland game, then we'd never had made the Super Bowl.

I didn't ask for facts. I made a simple statement that I believe to be Whis's policy and backed it up with the Warner/Lienart controversy. And regardless of what you are saying, Warner ended up being the starter because he outplayed Lienart. How can you dispute that?

 

[kerouac9]

That wasn't your decision to make. Apparently Whis felt he was better at that time and played him. Just because you disagree with him don't make him wrong. After all, his opinion counts, yours doesn't.

He wasn't wrong because I disagreed with him. He was wrong because Joey Porter was a re-animated corpse. You don't even bother to dispute this. If Whis is always a priori right, and every decision that Graves makes is a right one, why is this team 13-19 over the last two seasons?

I didn't ask for facts. I made a simple statement that I believe to be Whis's policy and backed it up with the Warner/Lienart controversy. And regardless of what you are saying, Warner ended up being the starter because he outplayed Lienart. How can you dispute that?

But that's not the case. Whis elevated Leinart to the starting job in training camp. Was he wrong to do that because Leinart was being paid more? Why not reward the superior player in 2007 with the starting job coming into camp, and make Leinart take it from him?

Warner ended up being the starter because Warner outplayed Leinart in 2007. 2008 training camp had nothing to do with it.

 

[BigRedRage]

He wasn't wrong because I disagreed with him. He was wrong because Joey Porter was a re-animated corpse. You don't even bother to dispute this. If Whis is always a priori right, and every decision that Graves makes is a right one, why is this team 13-19 over the last two seasons?



But that's not the case. Whis elevated Leinart to the starting job in training camp. Was he wrong to do that because Leinart was being paid more? Why not reward the superior player in 2007 with the starting job coming into camp, and make Leinart take it from him?

Warner ended up being the starter because Warner outplayed Leinart in 2007. 2008 training camp had nothing to do with it.

Lienart was anointed the starter and lost it with 3 picks in oakland from my memory.