Kolb's Not Going Anywhere

[desertdawg]

The one year I remember Warner and "The Leenart" sharing duties until Matty went down with the collarbone. Then the other year after camp (still talking Leenart), they just straight released him after he found out he wasn't getting the #1 spot to DA . Waved him around as trade bait, nobody bit.

 

[kerouac9]

Lienart was anointed the starter and lost it with 3 picks in oakland from my memory.

Leinart made it easy for the coaching staff, media, and fans following the Oakland game, but leading up to it he was 14 for 19 for 153 yards and a TD, 8.1 YPA. The "battle" was so heated that Warner didn't even play in the first preseason game against New Orleans.

Again, if the coaching staff was ready to bench a guy who was capable of putting up MVP numbers and leading the team to a Super Bowl for a guy who wasn't worth a bag of jockstraps two years later, they're not very smart.

 

[Duckjake]

Lienart was anointed the starter and lost it with 3 picks in oakland from my memory.

That's what people claim. But it isn't reality. CKW even slipped up in an interview later and admitted that Warner had played too well in 2007 to not be #1 going into 2008. Wish I could find that link again. Warner also had very limited playing time in pre season 2008 a strong indication that the Cards were going with him as starter.

How different do you think things would be this pre season if Skelton had thrown for 21 TDs to 11 Ints and had 5 games out of 8 the last half of the season with a QB rating over 95 and the Cards had averaged 30.8ppg the last half of 2011? That's what Warner did in '07.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

How different do you think things would be this pre season if Skelton had thrown for 21 TDs to 11 Ints and had 5 games out of 8 the last half of the season with a QB rating over 95 and the Cards had averaged 30.8ppg the last half of 2011? That's what Warner did in '07.

Yet you can still find threads full of people clamoring for Leinart to start. SMH.

 

[kerouac9]

Yet you can still find threads full of people clamoring for Leinart to start. SMH.

I wanted Leinart to start that '08 season, but I remembered how brutally awful Warner was in '06, when Leinart started the end of the year. Warner was actively taking wins off the table, sometimes by himself. It was horrible.

I was wrong about that, but I still think that the team would've been better off keeping Leinart in 2010 than dumping him for Derek Anderson and Max Hall.

 

[Duckjake]

I wanted Leinart to start that '08 season, but I remembered how brutally awful Warner was in '06, when Leinart started the end of the year. Warner was actively taking wins off the table, sometimes by himself. It was horrible.

I was wrong about that, but I still think that the team would've been better off keeping Leinart in 2010 than dumping him for Derek Anderson and Max Hall.

I think Warner's age, the still fresh memories of the heartbreaking 2006 season and the hope of finally having a first round big name qb caused many of us to overlook what Warner did the last half of 2007. But the coaches didn't.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think Warner's age, the still fresh memories of the heartbreaking 2006 season and the hope of finally having a first round big name qb caused many of us to overlook what Warner did the last half of 2007. But the coaches didn't.

yeah... i was in that same camp... until that Oakland game. That was the most pathetic performance from a QB in a big game (yes, I know it was only pre-season, but in a QB competition, everyone including Leinart knew he needed to look at least decent in that game and his crapped the bed) I've ever seen from a Cardinal. After that, I was fully on board with Warner.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

yeah... i was in that same camp... until that Oakland game. That was the most pathetic performance from a QB in a big game (yes, I know it was only pre-season, but in a QB competition, everyone including Leinart knew he needed to look at least decent in that game and his crapped the bed) I've ever seen from a Cardinal. After that, I was fully on board with Warner.

The Baltimore game that year really did it for me. To see Lienart flail around out there and then have Warner come in and carve the Ravens up on the road was eye opening to say the least.

 

[Cardiac]

I have to say, and this is really an evolving opinion and I reserve the right to change it...

Chopper is right on the money, Kolb is the better QB but Skelton might be a better fit.

I also see things like Kerouac that Skelton is more likely to have a lower floor (7-9) while Kolb is more likely to have a higher ceiling (9-7). I also think all of you are making WAY to big a deal of Kolb's performance.

Outside of the really dumb, inexcusable pick, the guy was rightfully (on his part) running for his life. The offensive line settled down and played better, not because Skelton was in there, but because the settled down and played better!

And besides, what we can hope for is the Cards to win enough this year NOT to embarass us and for us to be able to trade up and get Wilson or Barkley.

Fully agree with all of this except for the last paragraph. Well actually you may be right but I'm still drinking koolaide.

After watching the video it appears that Levi's guy (#91) brings the initial pressure after beating Levi with an inside move and its the first guy Kolb sees when he looks back to his left. It appears that LSH is trying to chip him or at least impede him. Had Kolb stayed in the pocket he would have been flattened by #91. After that it all falls apart as no one holds their blocks.

Now what makes me wonder is does Kolb have a total lack of confidence in his OL and Levi in particular because that is the first place he looked and here comes old #91 barreling down on him.

I think Kolb expects some measure of protection from his line which I think one should expect since it's their job to block.

Absolutely.

The CW is that Kolb came out of a west coast system (with 3-step drops/get rid of the ball fast). The Cardinal offensive system appears to be more vertical (with longer drops and more deep throws).

It is possible that Kolb might be better able to rack up bigger stats in a west coast system, but Skelton's bigger size and arm-strength might enable him to rack up better stats in a vertical game.

Kolb might be better for the number of clubs who play "west coast." But Skelton's skill set might fit a vertical scheme better.

Capiche?

Agreed.

Fine. Beanie Wells playing behind Tim Hightower. Brandon Keith starting ahead of Jeremy Bridges. Keith getting benched for poor play one week and then again starting at right tackle again the next week. Max Hall playing ahead of John Skelton.

Beanie can't catch and didn't know how to pass protect.
Brandon Keith was coming on before the injury and the coaches prefer to keep Bridges as their swing man.

Bones didn't know the playbook, how to call a play correctly or where everyone should be lined up. You keep pounding this point and refuse to see why Whiz had Hall start.

After watching the play where Kolb gets injured I have decided he made a great play. One can question the play calling but to me it's as simply as if it doesn't work it's a bad call and if it does your a genius. The Saints had the perfect D called for that play. To assume it would never work even if everything stays the same but the Saints don't blitz is short sighted.

If the O-line had not totally sucked on that play then Kolb would have had more than a nanosecond to locate either Heap or Sherman.

As many have stated I was worried it was a concussion but after watching the replay it appears to me that Kolb did everything he could to avoid letting his head hit the ground (yes he is concerned about concussions) which put his hand, arm, shoulder and chest at more risk.

Concussions remain my biggest concern about Kolb.

I loved how Bones handled himself and made plays. IMO he takes the lead in the battle and I would be thrilled if he becomes our home grown QB who helps us win playoff games and more.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Fine. Beanie Wells playing behind Tim Hightower. Brandon Keith starting ahead of Jeremy Bridges. Keith getting benched for poor play one week and then again starting at right tackle again the next week. Max Hall playing ahead of John Skelton.

Wells had problems with blocking assignments; Keith's evaluation is Grimm's responsibility, and Hall vs Skelton at the time was a toss up.

 

[Shane]

Wells had problems with blocking assignments; Keith's evaluation is Grimm's responsibility, and Hall vs Skelton at the time was a toss up.

and TH outperformed BW

 

[DieHardCardFan]

100% disagree. I rewatched the play he got hurt in slow motion.

The play starts on the 12 yard line.

1-10-ARI 12 (6:29) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 35-A.Sherman to ARI 16 for 4 yards (58-S.Shanle) [98-S.Ellis]. ARI-4-K.Kolb was injured during the play. His return is Questionable.

Kolb takes a drop all the way back to the 5. Prior to this there is a well defined pocket. The defender beats his man and LaRod chips him.

Kolb just has to slide slightly to the right and hit Sherman who is wide open for a large gain. However, he may take a hit afterwards.

Instead Kolb spins to the right and runs backwards literally another 7 yards until he is two yards deep in the end zone. That is 14 negative yards.

He is now outside of the pocket and Bridges man is free to clobber him and he does. The guy he was running from never made it into the play after LaRod chipped him.

Kolb's injury was a microcosm of everything annoying about how he plays. He threw the ball 16 yards to get a 4 yard completion and still got hit.

 

[Broseph]

what exactly have some of you seen out of kolb that makes him better than skelton? i have not seen this evidence you speak of. the dude's first throw was an interception in a very, very basic coverage scheme.

 

[Shane]

what exactly have some of you seen out of kolb that makes him better than skelton? i have not seen this evidence you speak of. the dude's first throw was an interception in a very, very basic coverage scheme.

One throw? Really?? I can pick out many a bone headed throws from Skelton. pretty much an asinine way to judge a QB.

But I really don't know who is better and over the course of the PS we will find out. WE HOPE. But based on overall #'s I can see clearly why many would think Kolb is better than Skelton.

 

[Broseph]

One throw? Really?? I can pick out many a bone headed throws from Skelton. pretty much an asinine way to judge a QB.

But I really don't know who is better and over the course of the PS we will find out. WE HOPE. But based on overall #'s I can see clearly why many would think Kolb is better than Skelton.

I'm not judging him by one throw, I just used that as a recent example. What has he done in a Cardinals uniform that would make him a starter over Skelton? Absolutely nothing in my eyes.

 

[Shane]

I'm not judging him by one throw, I just used that as a recent example. What has he done in a Cardinals uniform that would make him a starter over Skelton? Absolutely nothing in my eyes.

Well those are just your eyes!

 

[Broseph]

Well those are just your eyes!

So I guess I am the only one that thinks that Kolb hasn't done anything to prove himself the starter over Skelton?

 

[football karma]

K9 had a post earlier positing that Kolb starts because if he doesn't, you can't go back to him. I agree with that assessment

The problem is this: Kolb in six plays displayed all the problems we saw last year-- terrible reads for an int, skittish in the pocket, scrambling into pressure and fragility. Seemingly zero improvement.

If Kolb strings together more of the same, I think Whis risks losing the team if he makes Kolb the starter -- particular if Skelton plays even reasonably well.

 

[Shane]

So I guess I am the only one that thinks that Kolb hasn't done anything to prove himself the starter over Skelton?

Nope. But there is more than one who thinks that Kolb should be as well

 

[Duckjake]

So I guess I am the only one that thinks that Kolb hasn't done anything to prove himself the starter over Skelton?

No, my eyes tell me the same thing.

Don't pay any attention to Shane he has been in a bad mood ever since Tim Hightower got traded to the Redskins. That's understandable though. Hell, I'm still mad the baseball Cardinals traded Larry Jackson to the Cubs.

 

[Shane]

No, my eyes tell me the same thing.

Don't pay any attention to Shane he has been in a bad mood ever since Tim Hightower got traded to the Redskins. That's understandable though. I'm still mad the Cards let Johnny Bailey go to the Rams.

Wrong. Started with Q.

 

[Broseph]

Trust me I want Kolb to do well, we have invested money into this guy and a second round pick. He just hasn't shown me that he's worth the money, or that he can beat out Skelton. If he plays next pre-season game and looks sharp and has a good pre-season, I will be more optimistic about him. But he's shown not only can he not stay healthy, but that he can't move the ball.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not judging him by one throw, I just used that as a recent example. What has he done in a Cardinals uniform that would make him a starter over Skelton? Absolutely nothing in my eyes.

It's because he can't stay on the field. If you look at his numbers he has a higher completion % better YPA better passer rating, lower INT %. Skelton has a higher TD number and gets sacked less often.

The 2 big issues Kolb has had are staying on the field, and avoiding the big losses on the sacksm both things Skelton is quite good at. When you consider how often last year Kolb was intentionally throwing balls away to avoid sacks, something Skelton rarely does, it further illustrates the difference in accuracy.

But right now it comes down to can he stay on the field and I no longer think he can so I would start Skelton over Kolb.

 

[Duckjake]

It's because he can't stay on the field. If you look at his numbers he has a higher completion % better YPA better passer rating, lower INT %. Skelton has a higher TD number and gets sacked less often.

The 2 big issues Kolb has had are staying on the field, and avoiding the big losses on the sacksm both things Skelton is quite good at. When you consider how often last year Kolb was intentionally throwing balls away to avoid sacks, something Skelton rarely does, it further illustrates the difference in accuracy.

But right now it comes down to can he stay on the field and I no longer think he can so I would start Skelton over Kolb.

While all of that is true you left out the horrific decisions Kolb makes. He threw some really questionable passes last season and of course he bailed too soon on several occasions.

One thing I've noticed in watching the replays is that our QBs, like our run game, are streaky. They'll look solid for several throws in a row and then just go off the deep end with poor decisions, wild throws etc. Just like our run game that gets 6 yards, 13 yards, 7 yards and then goes 1,3,-1,0.

 

[Russ Smith]

While all of that is true you left out the horrific decisions Kolb makes. He threw some really questionable passes last season and of course he bailed too soon on several occasions.

One thing I've noticed in watching the replays is that our QBs, like our run game, are streaky. They'll look solid for several throws in a row and then just go off the deep end with poor decisions, wild throws etc. Just like our run game that gets 6 yards, 13 yards, 7 yards and then goes 1,3,-1,0.

Oh he does of course but in the end, Skelton throws INT's at almost twice the rate Kolb does. Him improving in that area is critical to him becoming a viable NFL QB.

As you and others have said the big issue Kolb has beyond staying healthy is stringing together plays to create a drive because of all the negative plays.

One stat I haven't seen but wish someone would keep on QB's is average yards per play, not pass play mind you play period. So if you hand off 3 tiems for 9 yards your yards per play is 3. It would show the value of avoiding negative plays. Guy takes a 12 yard loss on 2nd down and then completes a 12 yard pass on 3rd and 15 and you punt. Yards per play would score those 2 plays as 0, where passer rating or yards per attempt don't adequately punish the QB for losing 12 yards on the prior play.

If Kolb canjust learn to get those balls out earlier either thrown away or ideally find an outlet guy, avoiding those big losses will contribute to more scoring drives.

But at this point I just don't think he can stay healthy, in this system he's going to take hits and when he does, he gets hurt.

I'm not a huge believer in Skelton(obviously) but unless Kolb dramatically improves the last 4 games I'd be pretty unhappy if he's the starter he just hasn't been durable enough.