Kolb's Not Going Anywhere

[kerouac9]

It's because he can't stay on the field. If you look at his numbers he has a higher completion % better YPA better passer rating, lower INT %. Skelton has a higher TD number and gets sacked less often.

The 2 big issues Kolb has had are staying on the field, and avoiding the big losses on the sacksm both things Skelton is quite good at. When you consider how often last year Kolb was intentionally throwing balls away to avoid sacks, something Skelton rarely does, it further illustrates the difference in accuracy.

But right now it comes down to can he stay on the field and I no longer think he can so I would start Skelton over Kolb.

Isn't that really because he never played anyone good? Those stats are inflated because he started off against Carolina and Washington, two pretty awful pass defenses.

Once Kolb started playing defenses that could put up a fight, he got worse... and worse... and worse. I'm still looking for the excuse for that. Not like what happens with good QBs where you have a 100+ QB rating against Jacksonville and then a 85 rating against Baltimore.

130.0
92.5
69.6
67.9
46.9
86.9
68.2

And then he gets hurt. Where's the improvement that you'd expect from two months getting focused coaching and integrating yourself into the offense?

 

[az jam]

The really sad bottom line is that we have two of the worst qbs in the NFL.
Is there really any other team in the NFL where Kolb or Skelton would be a starter??? (It's debatable but that just tells you how bad it is.)
In every single fantasy football list, they are at the bottom.

 

[Russ Smith]

Isn't that really because he never played anyone good? Those stats are inflated because he started off against Carolina and Washington, two pretty awful pass defenses.

Once Kolb started playing defenses that could put up a fight, he got worse... and worse... and worse. I'm still looking for the excuse for that. Not like what happens with good QBs where you have a 100+ QB rating against Jacksonville and then a 85 rating against Baltimore.

130.0
92.5
69.6
67.9
46.9
86.9
68.2

And then he gets hurt. Where's the improvement that you'd expect from two months getting focused coaching and integrating yourself into the offense?

He played against who he played against. Skelton is getting better, I mean he has a passer rating of 10.5 against SF and then 3 weeks and 2 games later he puts up a 106.5 against the same team. That's a pretty impressive improvement.

Played fairly well against Cleveland the next week and so just when you think he's turned a corner, he puts up a stinker against Cincy and a ho hum against Seattle to close out the year.

as bad as Kolb has looked his worst rating game last year was 46.9.

Skelton had a 10.5 and a 30, back to back! So no it's not because Kolb didn't play anybody it's because he completes a higher % and gets a better passer rating than Skelton so far. he just can't stay on the field so it gets pointless to talk about until he shows he can.

At this point I'd say Kolb has to outplay Skelton, fairly easily, in 3 of the next 4 games. He has to make it through every game without injury. or there is no reasonable defense for starting him in the opener(unless of course Skelton got hurt).

 

[Duckjake]

Oh he does of course but in the end, Skelton throws INT's at almost twice the rate Kolb does. Him improving in that area is critical to him becoming a viable NFL QB.

As you and others have said the big issue Kolb has beyond staying healthy is stringing together plays to create a drive because of all the negative plays.

One stat I haven't seen but wish someone would keep on QB's is average yards per play, not pass play mind you play period. So if you hand off 3 tiems for 9 yards your yards per play is 3. It would show the value of avoiding negative plays. Guy takes a 12 yard loss on 2nd down and then completes a 12 yard pass on 3rd and 15 and you punt. Yards per play would score those 2 plays as 0, where passer rating or yards per attempt don't adequately punish the QB for losing 12 yards on the prior play.

If Kolb canjust learn to get those balls out earlier either thrown away or ideally find an outlet guy, avoiding those big losses will contribute to more scoring drives.

But at this point I just don't think he can stay healthy, in this system he's going to take hits and when he does, he gets hurt.

I'm not a huge believer in Skelton(obviously) but unless Kolb dramatically improves the last 4 games I'd be pretty unhappy if he's the starter he just hasn't been durable enough.

Yes but Skelton throws TD passes at a higher rate than Kolb.

Russ, the % differences are way too small to throw out what you see on the field. .051 to .032. INTs .040 to .036. TDs .549 to .577. Completions, 7.0 to 7.7. YPA

I'm sorry I ever got the coaches film. I was never high on Kolb to begin with because he just seemed to get worse the more he played based on the #s. But now that I've watched him in action on the All-22, I've really soured on him and our prospects for 2012.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yes but Skelton throws TD passes at a higher rate than Kolb.

Russ, the % differences are way too small to throw out what you see on the field. .051 to .032. INTs .040 to .036. TDs .549 to .577. Completions, 7.0 to 7.7. YPA

I'm sorry I ever got the coaches film. I was never high on Kolb to begin with because he just seemed to get worse the more he played based on the #s. But now that I've watched him in action on the All-22, I've really soured on him and our prospects for 2012.

I did say that, Skelton throws more TD passes by percentage and gets sacked less. That's the 2 clear advantages he has statistically.

It's all pointless though because Kolb has to show he can play a whole game, and then do it again and again. You can't select a starting QB on the basis of when he can play, he's better.

Right now my inclination is go with the guy who's likely going to be able to play week after week, give him the majority of the reps and see where he goes with them.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yes but Skelton throws TD passes at a higher rate than Kolb.

Russ, the % differences are way too small to throw out what you see on the field. .051 to .032. INTs .040 to .036. TDs .549 to .577. Completions, 7.0 to 7.7. YPA

I'm sorry I ever got the coaches film. I was never high on Kolb to begin with because he just seemed to get worse the more he played based on the #s. But now that I've watched him in action on the All-22, I've really soured on him and our prospects for 2012.

To be fair, I think thats why they didnt release all-22 film for so long. It makes guys look bad. The all-22 view is a much clearer one than the view from 5 yards behind the o-line... or in Kolb's case 10 yards behind and 10 to the right of the o-line.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

or in Kolb's case 10 yards behind and 10 to the right of the o-line.

Back and right, someone's got to fix that controller.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Back and right, someone's got to fix that controller.

No doubt... though, on the play last season where he hit LSH for the game winning td versus the Cowgirls, it actually paid off!

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I'm not giving up on Kolb yet, but, I think if you want to be even an average starting QB in the NFL, you have to have a good set of whiskers.

Kurt Warner and hollywood Matt Leinart are perfect examples of this.

Warner's toughness was way underrated, but a characteristic that made him one of the all time great QBs. Almost every time he took a shot, he would get back up, shake himself off, and calmly go back to running the offense. No drama, no going out for one play. Almost always zero reaction.

Remember the 2007 CAR game where he suffered that horrific elbow injury? I mean, that was joe thiesman-esq. Think that was painful? Nevertheless, he came back the very next week against the Redskins, and played the remainder of the year at a very, very high level, even though that injury was surely still bothering him.

Warner could absorb an amazing level of punishment, and it seldom seemed to affect him physically, nor did he let it affect him mentally. Absolutely incredible.

Leinart, however, is the exact opposite of Warner. Every hit on Leinart seems to result in an injury, and his propensity to get knocked out of games has seriously impeded his NFL career. Maybe it's not entirely his fault, but Leinart has zero toughness, and, as a result, he could be out of the league at any moment.

Now back to Kevin Kolb. The concussion last year was bad luck, but neither could he recuperate quickly enough to try to get back into the starting line up. Then there was the turf toe injury, which was the result, I believe, of someone stepping on his foot. The hit in the HOF game was appeared to be pretty routine, and not particularly violent, and yet it easily sent Kolb to the sidelines, even though his job is in grave danger.

I don't know if KK is going to be tough enough to start 16 games for us or not. I hope he is. But this issue is now a critical concern. We'll never be a playoff team if we have perpetual injury problems with our starting QB, and so this year, if Kolb can't stay healthy (at least start and finish 12 games), I think the Cardinals should part ways with him.

 

[40yearfan]

He wasn't wrong because I disagreed with him. He was wrong because Joey Porter was a re-animated corpse. You don't even bother to dispute this. If Whis is always a priori right, and every decision that Graves makes is a right one, why is this team 13-19 over the last two seasons?



But that's not the case. Whis elevated Leinart to the starting job in training camp. Was he wrong to do that because Leinart was being paid more? Why not reward the superior player in 2007 with the starting job coming into camp, and make Leinart take it from him?

Warner ended up being the starter because Warner outplayed Leinart in 2007. 2008 training camp had nothing to do with it.

Why do you keep throwing extraneous items into the conversation? I didn't give a date. That's your timeframe, not mine. Warner outplayed Lienart and got the starting job. Whis will do that regardless of what salary a player is making. That was my original statement and you are jumping through hoops to disagree with me and trying to change the subject by throwing this type of flack into the air. It's a simple statement of fact and I don't know why you have such a problem with it.

 

[kerouac9]

Why do you keep throwing extraneous items into the conversation? I didn't give a date. That's your timeframe, not mine. Warner outplayed Lienart and got the starting job. Whis will do that regardless of what salary a player is making. That was my original statement and you are jumping through hoops to disagree with me and trying to change the subject by throwing this type of flack into the air. It's a simple statement of fact and I don't know why you have such a problem with it.

Ugh. It's a "statement of fact" without any evidence to support it. That's not a fact at all. If you want to believe the word of the guy who makes that statement, it's up to you, but don't pretend that because he says it, it's true.

The fact that you can't offer evidence of the truth of the statement, and rely on shifting timeframes and bland generalities only highlights to everyone that you're nothing but an apologist for a front office and coaching staff who's gone 13-17 in the last two seasons and needs a very strong season in 2012 to not enter 2013 on a very hot seat.

 

[40yearfan]

No, my eyes tell me the same thing.

Don't pay any attention to Shane he has been in a bad mood ever since Tim Hightower got traded to the Redskins. That's understandable though. Hell, I'm still mad the baseball Cardinals traded Larry Jackson to the Cubs.

And they ain't doing so hot right now either. Pittsburg kicked their collective butts yesterday.

 

[DoTheDew]

13-17 in the last two seasons

On the flip side, you have a coaching staff that's only had 1 losing season in 5 years and went 8-8 with arguably the worst QB play in the league last year. Don't you love how you can take any piece of data and twist it to win an argument?

 

[Shane]

On the flip side, you have a coaching staff that's only had 1 losing season in 5 years and went 8-8 with arguably the worst QB play in the league last year. It's fun selectively using data to help win arguments rather then looking at the full picture.

FANTASTIC!

 

[kerouac9]

On the flip side, you have a coaching staff that's only had 1 losing season in 5 years and went 8-8 with arguably the worst QB play in the league last year. It's fun selectively using data to help win arguments rather then looking at the full picture.

A QB situation that they put themselves in. Against one of the softest schedules in the NFL. And failed to address the quarterback situation again this year. This isn't Jackonville or Carolina. This isn't a new coaching staff.

The full picture is that this staff went 24-19 when Kurt Warner was their starting quarterback, and has gone 16-21 after they were somehow surprised by Warner's retirement.

Ken Whisenhunt is still an offensive mastermind, right? That is the basis of his hiring as a head coach, isn't it? Wasn't the original intention of his hiring to develop that Top 10 QB that we'd drafted the year before?

 

[Shane]

Wasn't the original intention of his hiring to develop that Top 10 QB that we'd drafted the year before?

Thats quite a leap in logic, You must be good buds with Mikey and Rod to know that nugget of information.

Considering Whiz had no choice in the matter with Shiddy Matt Leinart. Just because he was brought in to try and polish a turd Doesn't change the fact that it is still just a turd.

 

[kerouac9]

Thats quite a leap in logic, You must be good buds with Mikey and Rod to know that nugget of information.

Considering Whiz had no choice in the matter with Shiddy Matt Leinart. Just because he was brought in to try and polish a turd Doesn't change the fact that it is still just a turd.

How is that a leap in logic? That the Cards would bring in the offensive coordinator for the young quarterback who'd enjoyed unprecedented success? Do you think the Cards hired Whis because they were hoping he would resurrect the career of the washed up afterthought veteran who'd singlehandedly lost at least two games the season before?

 

[Shane]

How is that a leap in logic? That the Cards would bring in the offensive coordinator for the young quarterback who'd enjoyed unprecedented success? Do you think the Cards hired Whis because they were hoping he would resurrect the career of the washed up afterthought veteran who'd singlehandedly lost at least two games the season before?

I think he was brought in to turn the team around. Not one specific player. Leinart was a turd that the team just happened to be stuck with. Sure if he could turn him around then even better. But I don't think it was the the primary reason for the hire like your trying to insinuate. Matts successful NFL career post Cards only enhances Whiz opinion of him IMO.

 

[Russ Smith]

How is that a leap in logic? That the Cards would bring in the offensive coordinator for the young quarterback who'd enjoyed unprecedented success? Do you think the Cards hired Whis because they were hoping he would resurrect the career of the washed up afterthought veteran who'd singlehandedly lost at least two games the season before?

I think he was the guy on the highly respected Steelers staff that the Cards felt was most ready to take over as a HC.

Sure they thought he'd be better with QB's than he has been but I think largely they wanted someone who'd do what Green said he was going to do, put in a winning atmosphere. He has done that although I agree much of that was because Warner was just so good.

 

[Shane]

I agree much of that was because Warner was just so good.

Prior SB winning QB aside. Warner was pretty darn mediocre for 2 to 3 seasons before he played with Whiz. I think its time people realize their successes went hand in hand.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think he was brought in to turn the team around. Not one specific player. Leinart was a turd that the team just happened to be stuck with. Sure if he could turn him around then even better. But I don't think it was the the primary reason for the hire like your trying to insinuate. Matts successful NFL career post Cards only enhances Whiz opinion of him IMO.

Agreed. I dont think Whiz has been a good QB evaluator, but Leinart's lack of development was hardly his fault. If you want to claim that Matt was destined to be good then blame his collarbone and the huge numbers Warner put up for derailing him.

And Whiz was brought in because he was one of the most highly regarded coordinators in the league, not because he was known for baby sitting young QBs.

 

[Shane]

Agreed. I dont think Whiz has been a good QB evaluator, but Leinart's lack of development was hardly his fault. If you want to claim that Matt was destined to be good then blame his collarbone and the huge numbers Warner put up for derailing him.

And Whiz was brought in because he was one of the most highly regarded coordinators in the league, not because he was known for baby sitting young QBs.

 

[Russ Smith]

Prior SB winning QB aside. Warner was pretty darn mediocre for 2 to 3 seasons before he played with Whiz. I think its time people realize their successes went hand in hand.

True but I also think part of it was just Kurt had to sit for awhile to completely clear his head. Kurt took so many hits as a Ram and Giant that when he got here, he was punch drunk if you will.

I do agree that Whiz helped resurrect Kurt, helped get that confidence back.

 

[JeffGollin]

The focus of this thread seems to be skewed heavily toward "history" (who made what decision/when, what the stats were etc. etc.)

To me, what's important is - what we should expect and should be looking for from each QB from this day forward.

Whomever gets the job done (or doesn't) will render most of the past stuff irrelevent.

Operative phrase: "What have you done for us lately?"

 

[Duckjake]

Thats quite a leap in logic, You must be good buds with Mikey and Rod to know that nugget of information.

Considering Whiz had no choice in the matter with Shiddy Matt Leinart. Just because he was brought in to try and polish a turd Doesn't change the fact that it is still just a turd.

And I guess your good buds Mikey and Rod told you that they knew prior to January 14th of 2007 and after only 11 games his rookie season that they had made a horrific mistake in drafting Leinart and were bringing in CKW to try to, as you put it, polish a turd?

Odd that no one else has ever reported that. You must be really good pals with the FO. Were you the guy who leaked to Colin Cowherd that sources inside the Cards organization were questioning Kolb's commitment to the game of football?