ktar620

[ASUCHRIS]

He also said that he keeps hearing that the summer will be a failure if they don't get one of the superstars out there. He said he does not feel that way at all because they still have so much flexibility and a great core of young players they are going forward with.

Joe Mama

Well, apparently BC hasn't followed the NBA much in the last 10-15 years. With the exception of one abberation, the Pistons, this is a league where you need superstars to win championships. Having a bunch of good players will get you into the playoffs, but sure as hell won't win you a championship. Ask Dallas and Sacramento how well the strategy works. I still believe with a viable third option, the Lakers would have won the championship. I hate the Lakers, but they have the right formula to win; two superstars, supplimented by role players built around them. I am tired of mediocrity and first round playoff exits. (Although after last year, the playoffs would be nice)

I can't understand why people would be against T-Mac. Marion is good, but ultimately replaceable, as is Johnson. You simply cannot find another McGrady out there. With Amare and T-Mac, surrounded by three top 35 picks from last years draft, and 12 million in cap space, you could build a hell of a team. Pick up Bowen, and a decent FA center, and you have a hell of a team, much more attractive then the group I fear BC will put together.

 

[slinslin]

They are saying Vujanic won't be here next season.

 

[Bada0Bing]

Do you think Atlanta and Utah are bragging about their cap space too?

If we don't get T-Mack, this season is going to be worse than last year.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Well, apparently BC hasn't followed the NBA much in the last 10-15 years. With the exception of one abberation, the Pistons, this is a league where you need superstars to win championships. Having a bunch of good players will get you into the playoffs, but sure as hell won't win you a championship. Ask Dallas and Sacramento how well the strategy works. I still believe with a viable third option, the Lakers would have won the championship. I hate the Lakers, but they have the right formula to win; two superstars, supplimented by role players built around them. I am tired of mediocrity and first round playoff exits. (Although after last year, the playoffs would be nice)

I can't understand why people would be against T-Mac. Marion is good, but ultimately replaceable, as is Johnson. You simply cannot find another McGrady out there. With Amare and T-Mac, surrounded by three top 35 picks from last years draft, and 12 million in cap space, you could build a hell of a team. Pick up Bowen, and a decent FA center, and you have a hell of a team, much more attractive then the group I fear BC will put together.

Can anyone please give me a good explanation to this?

 

[slinslin]

They are saying the Suns were regretting that they didn't know Iguodala would be available at #7....

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

BC said that if the team missed out on one of the top FAs, it doesn't mean that the Marbury trade was for just Lampe and Vujanic.

He stressed that the suns could still facilitate many trades from several teams with high priced players who are looking to be moved. He made it sound very clear that even if they missed on Kobe and Tracy, they would still be very active in pursuiong great talent.


He definitely gave no indication of following the Pistons blueprint.

 

[slinslin]

It sounds like if the Suns don't get TMac it will be because they aren't willing to offer JJ at all. Even if it is only Marion and JJ.
They haven't made any mention of JJ being FA next season and taking up cap.
And the year after that Amare will get the max.

 

[JerkFace]

They are saying Vujanic won't be here next season.

why?

 

[slinslin]

Al McCoy called the Vroman pick 12 picks before we were on the clock....

 

[Evil Ash]

who?

I don't know of many names off the top of my head but here goes

1) A veteran PG that could help in the development of Leandro - such as Nash, Bowen, or Fisher

2) A decent FA center - don't know of many names but possibly a Dampier that could help on defense and do rebounding (the dirty work)

3) Maybe even to a lesser extent a FA small forward that like the Center position only needs to score occassionally and do dirty work - Fizer maybe

 

[elindholm]

Well, apparently BC hasn't followed the NBA much in the last 10-15 years. With the exception of one abberation, the Pistons, this is a league where you need superstars to win championships.... I can't understand why people would be against T-Mac.... You simply cannot find another McGrady out there.

Having a superstar doesn't guarantee anything. Garnett finally made it out of the first round after however-many tries. Carter isn't a superstar anymore, but he used to be; his teams never went deep in the playoffs.

If the Suns give up the farm for McGrady, they'll have him and Stoudemire and no one else. You can't just snap your fingers and say, "No problem, we'll add free agents with our cap room." It doesn't always work that way. So then the Suns would become just another bad team that happens to have a superstar on it.

 

[Evil Ash]

It sounds like if the Suns don't get TMac it will be because they aren't willing to offer JJ at all. Even if it is only Marion and JJ.
They haven't made any mention of JJ being FA next season and taking up cap.
And the year after that Amare will get the max.

Remember what they say and what they do are 2 completely different things.

 

[elindholm]

They haven't made any mention of JJ being FA next season and taking up cap.

You have to find players you want to pay eventually. What's your plan, to win the title with two stars and a bunch of guys still on rookie contracts?

 

[slinslin]

I don't know of many names off the top of my head but here goes

1) A veteran PG that could help in the development of Leandro - such as Nash, Bowen, or Fisher

2) A decent FA center - don't know of many names but possibly a Dampier that could help on defense and do rebounding (the dirty work)

3) Maybe even to a lesser extent a FA small forward that like the Center position only needs to score occassionally and do dirty work - Fizer maybe

Bowen isn't a PG.

They specifically called out Dampier as someone they hoped the Suns would stay from.

In their opinion Nash will be traded to the Lakers or basically not be available. Kobe will stay with the Lakers and TMac go to Houston if the Suns aren't willing to give up JJ.

They say it would be a tough sell now that the Marbury trade looks like Maciej Lampe and whole lot of nothing considering there was some kind of promise the Suns would have a big offseason.

Going into next season with basically the same roster that won 29 games would be tough to sell but is probably reality.

 

[Joe Mama]

Well, apparently BC hasn't followed the NBA much in the last 10-15 years. With the exception of one abberation, the Pistons, this is a league where you need superstars to win championships.... I can't understand why people would be against T-Mac.... You simply cannot find another McGrady out there.

Having a superstar doesn't guarantee anything. Garnett finally made it out of the first round after however-many tries. Carter isn't a superstar anymore, but he used to be; his teams never went deep in the playoffs.

If the Suns give up the farm for McGrady, they'll have him and Stoudemire and no one else. You can't just snap your fingers and say, "No problem, we'll add free agents with our cap room." It doesn't always work that way. So then the Suns would become just another bad team that happens to have a superstar on it.

exactly. And please remember that we are talking about selling the farm for a superstar that just lead his team to 21 victories and the worst record in the NBA.

ASUChris, you asked how people could be against trading Shawn Marion, JJ, and a draft pick for a superstar like Tracy McGrady. I say that if Tracy McGrady did not have these other issues, especially his health, I would be willing to give up those players. The other problem that many of you keep conveniently forgetting to address is that McGrady does not want to come to a Phoenix Suns team that doesn't look much better than the Orlando team he just left. Sure, they have a lot of money to spend in free agency. So did Utah. So did Chicago. If Tracy McGrady does not want to come to the Phoenix Suns he won't be here.

Joe Mama

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Well, apparently BC hasn't followed the NBA much in the last 10-15 years. With the exception of one abberation, the Pistons, this is a league where you need superstars to win championships.... I can't understand why people would be against T-Mac.... You simply cannot find another McGrady out there.

Having a superstar doesn't guarantee anything. Garnett finally made it out of the first round after however-many tries. Carter isn't a superstar anymore, but he used to be; his teams never went deep in the playoffs.

If the Suns give up the farm for McGrady, they'll have him and Stoudemire and no one else. You can't just snap your fingers and say, "No problem, we'll add free agents with our cap room." It doesn't always work that way. So then the Suns would become just another bad team that happens to have a superstar on it.

We can go into individual discussions about why Garnett has failed, but that would require quite a bit of time. I don't think anybody here would consider Vince Carter to be a top five player, and I should have been more clear on that point; generally the dominating star has been an inside player.

No one else? The Suns have a bunch of young talented players on their rosters. Watching Amare develop at the end of last year, he looks by all accounts to be as dominating as anyone. I believe that the Suns have the ability to develop a Shaq-Kobe like duo with Amare and McGrady. I don't know how you can argue that the Suns would be a bad team with both Amare and McGrady on the team, I don't really care who you surround them with.

With 12 million dollars, we should be able to at least suppliment McGrady and Amare. There are quite a few options at point/shooting guard and at center. At this point, you find a few players who play maddog defense, and someone who can hit an open shot, ala Bruce Bowen. Seems like a much better option than supplimenting the current roster with Steve Nash and Mehmet Okur.

 

[Joe Mama]

Another thing... most of us are anticipating that Amare Stoudemire is going to be a very, very good frontcourt player. I know I expect him to be a borderline superstar next season. Well, the San Antonio Spurs won the championship with one superstar player. So did the Houston Rockets. In fact they won two of them... and don't try to tell me that Clyde Drexler was a superstar at that point. Even if you consider Isaiah Thomas a superstar the Detroit Pistons only had one of him and they won two championships.

I really do not see why everybody is so Hung up on history in sports. New history is made all the time.

Joe Mama

 

[ASUCHRIS]

ASUChris, you asked how people could be against trading Shawn Marion, JJ, and a draft pick for a superstar like Tracy McGrady. I say that if Tracy McGrady did not have these other issues, especially his health, I would be willing to give up those players. The other problem that many of you keep conveniently forgetting to address is that McGrady does not want to come to a Phoenix Suns team that doesn't look much better than the Orlando team he just left. Sure, they have a lot of money to spend in free agency. So did Utah. So did Chicago. If Tracy McGrady does not want to come to the Phoenix Suns he won't be here.

Joe Mama

Perhaps I assume the best health/additude wise with the addition of McGrady. I believe he is worth the risk. I believe that many people are severly underrating Amare. In the second half of the season, I watched pretty much every game, and he was absolutely unstoppable. He has the ability and desire to be a top 3 power forward, in the league of Duncan and Garnett. Phoenix, in addition, has always been a desirable free agent destination, while Utah and other areas have been the equivalent of Siberia. I do agree though, I don't know about his additude or desire to come to Phoenix. I do think it would put him in a wonderful situation where he would have the ability to compete for a championship.

 

[elindholm]

I don't think anybody here would consider Vince Carter to be a top five player, and I should have been more clear on that point; generally the dominating star has been an inside player.

He was definitely considered a top-five player a few years ago. And McGrady's not an inside player either.

The Suns have a bunch of young talented players on their rosters.

Uh-huh. One of the informative things about reading message board for other teams is that you learn all fans think the same way. Every team has "young talented players" who its fans are sure are going to develop any day now.

I don't know how you can argue that the Suns would be a bad team with both Amare and McGrady on the team, I don't really care who you surround them with.

Is Stoudemire plus scrubs that much better than McGrady's supporting cast in Orlando? 20+ wins better, in a tougher conference? I don't think so. That's a huge difference.

Seems like a much better option than supplimenting the current roster with Steve Nash and Mehmet Okur.

I don't think anyone on this board is advocating that. Most of us don't even believe the rumors that the Suns are considering such a plan.

 

[elindholm]

Phoenix, in addition, has always been a desirable free agent destination

This is becoming less true all the time, I expect. First of all, they haven't landed a significant free agent since, uh, I guess Hardaway, if you count sign-and-trades. But also, their roster moves over the last two years certainly look like the behavior of a franchise more concerned with the financial bottom line than putting together a quality team. Some of us may feel like we know the real motivation behind those moves, but it must at least be acknowledged that it sure doesn't look good to the outside.

When Phoenix was a hot free-agent destination, they had a consistently good team, a large, enthusiastic fan base, and an above-average payroll. None of those factors are in play anymore. I don't think it's valid to assert that the Suns continue to be in a strong position to attract free agents.

 

[Joe Mama]

Perhaps I assume the best health/additude wise with the addition of McGrady. I believe he is worth the risk. I believe that many people are severly underrating Amare. In the second half of the season, I watched pretty much every game, and he was absolutely unstoppable. He has the ability and desire to be a top 3 power forward, in the league of Duncan and Garnett. Phoenix, in addition, has always been a desirable free agent destination, while Utah and other areas have been the equivalent of Siberia. I do agree though, I don't know about his additude or desire to come to Phoenix. I do think it would put him in a wonderful situation where he would have the ability to compete for a championship.

I agree with you regarding Amare Stoudemire. I think that's why I am not willing to give up too much to get McGrady. I honestly don't think this team needs him. He has back problems and other health problems, and he is going to get an extension starting at $15 million per season. I'm not against trading these players, but I really worry about putting all of their eggs into McGrady's basket.

Joe Mama

 

[Evil Ash]

The other problem that many of you keep conveniently forgetting to address is that McGrady does not want to come to a Phoenix Suns team that doesn't look much better than the Orlando team he just left.

For starters that is only rumor at this point that TMac wants to go to Houston and you forgot to mention the source is none other than Jim "the TMac deal to Houston is done" Gray. Are you sure you want to go by his credibility?

Secondly this is better than Orlando because he has a great big man in Amare, some decent youngsters and the ability to get more players due to their cap room

Sure, they have a lot of money to spend in free agency. So did Utah. So did Chicago.

True but if you have 2 superstars, other players will want to come here also. They have plenty of cap room to offer fair deals to players. They won't just be offering the million dollar exception

If Tracy McGrady does not want to come to the Phoenix Suns he won't be here.

Agreed if he won't agree to an extension the Suns won't pull the trigger. First thing's first though you create a package that the Magic will agree to, then you call TMac to see if he is willing to play here and sign an extension.

If he says "yes" you pull the trigger on the trade. If he says "No" you back out of the deal

 

[slinslin]

. The other problem that many of you keep conveniently forgetting to address is that McGrady does not want to come to a Phoenix Suns team that doesn't look much better than the Orlando team he just left. Sure, they have a lot of money to spend in free agency. So did Utah. So did Chicago. If Tracy McGrady does not want to come to the Phoenix Suns he won't be here.

Joe Mama

Bryan Colangelo really didn't want to talk about it but he specifically said that he thinks Phoenix is on McGrady's short list.

If the deal doesn't happen it happens because JC is simply not willing to offer what is needed to make it happen although it wouldn't include Amare.

Also capspace was very valueable last season and allowed Utah to make deals because Utah was basically the only team with significant capspace.

Atlanta and Utah have more capspace than the Suns and who are they going to sign if nobody is worth it out there?

And if the Suns don't use their capspace somehow before JJ becomes FA his extension will take away a major part of our space at that time. If not JJ is probably back in his shell and we should have traded him while the value was high.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I don't think anybody here would consider Vince Carter to be a top five player, and I should have been more clear on that point; generally the dominating star has been an inside player.

He was definitely considered a top-five player a few years ago. And McGrady's not an inside player either.

The Suns have a bunch of young talented players on their rosters.

Uh-huh. One of the informative things about reading message board for other teams is that you learn all fans think the same way. Every team has "young talented players" who its fans are sure are going to develop any day now.

I don't know how you can argue that the Suns would be a bad team with both Amare and McGrady on the team, I don't really care who you surround them with.

Is Stoudemire plus scrubs that much better than McGrady's supporting cast in Orlando? 20+ wins better, in a tougher conference? I don't think so. That's a huge difference.

Seems like a much better option than supplimenting the current roster with Steve Nash and Mehmet Okur.

I don't think anyone on this board is advocating that. Most of us don't even believe the rumors that the Suns are considering such a plan.

My argument is predicated on the belief that the team wouldn't just be Amare and Tracy surrounded by scrubs; that they will be able to find a few pieces with 12 million dollars in the offseason. Of course, this is predictive, but it seems like there will be some useful pieces in the offseason.

I find it hard to believe that we won't be able to get some positive contributions from Lampe, Barbosa or Zarko. Guess we'll have to disagree on that one.

The Nash and Okur comment is in reference to basically every free agent report about both players linking them to the Suns, and AZcentral including this on a consistent basis as well. While this obviously doesn't guarantee them coming here, where there's smoke...... It also seems like a likely scenario; we are unable to lure Kobe over, so we go after our two "targets", as outlined by BC, point guard and center.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I dont see why people are still talking about Amare + Tracy + scrubs.

We will keep almost all of our cap space in the McGrady trade. We could add very good players if we dont trade fo rhim. Either way, we wont be surrounding either option with "scrubs".

However, if the suns DO land McGrady, it will obviously change their FA plans. They would look more towards signing 2 or 3 players to mid level contracts I would think. If we dont, we will go for high dollar FAs.

Outside of Bryant, I don't want the suns to commit big big money to anyone. Including Steve Nash. So I guess that is another reason why I advocate the TMac trade. I think the Suns would build a very nice supporting cast around TMAC/Amare, where if we dont make the trade, they will overspend on players that will underachieve.


My still option is of course Bryant