ktar620

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

cheese, i guess it comes down to how you view amare. you seem to feel that he is a nice player and may become a star some day, but not a superstar. i feel that he is a star now and will be a superstar in a year or two. you feel that marion is an ancher around this teams neck while i feel that he is a star who does all the little things that help team be successful. i think that joe johnson is a star in the make who might become a second teir superstar with his all round game and the ability to score at the end of the game.


you dont think that this team is anything like the 88 team, to me it they are all to close with one change. amare is chambers (but as a rookie and with barkley mean streak), marion is thunder dan (with out the bad back and rebounding that dan couldnt ever do), jj is kj young rookie we got his first season in the nba and grow to be one of the best guards in the nba in time (kj had his injuries, jj has his willingness to drop his game to help others).
this group we dont need to worry about trading for barkley we already have him in amare. now we just need to find our ainge, ced and west and wait for a little while.

first, i know cheese thinks amare will be a superstar. none of us sell him short.

second, your comparisons are definitely off. marion to thunder? thunder was a clutch performer, marion will never be. thunder was tough. marion is meek and strays from contact.

jj to kj? are you mad? kj remains, in my mind, one of the greatly underrated players to this day. he did not have all the injury problems early in his career and he could take over games. he was a weapon to be worried about, sometimes even double teamed. jj is none of that. kj had supreme confidence, jj's can be easily shaken.

the teams are not near comparable.

 

[NugzFan]

I can't see how the Suns could possibly go in the next season,

-keeping their capspace,
-making no major additions after they promised a big offseason when Marbury was traded,
-trading away a #7 pick because apparently they didn't think Iguodala would be there at #7
-and raise the ticket prices.

We might just as well become the new Clippers, Warriors or Nuggets of the West.

um, that would be an improvement for the suns. might wanna check out last years standings in case you forgot already.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Guards and/or centers dominate championship winning teams. A power forward is unlikely to be the centerpiece of a championship team.

Except if its the Spurs (no, he was NOT the center, D Rob was)

Or the Celts (forward led team, but since Bird was not a PF)

And since the Jazz only made it to the finals, but did not win, Karl Malone's team doesn't count.

Sorry, I just disagree with this premise. There is no reason why a PF led team cannot go to the finals, or win it all.

 

[schutd]

but the problem is that if we get nothing in the way of significant free agents then we didn't get any value for him at all.

Agreed. However if we held onto him, we'd have continued to be utterly mediocre in my opinion, his value would have slipped and we wouldn't have even gotten the possibility of a big score. It was a calculated risk, one Im not disappointed in taking.

 

[George O'Brien]

Even if all the trade of Marbury and Hardaway was was a salary dump, I think it was a good move. I don't really like his "game" in that he dominates the ball and doesn't run the offense effectively. With the new defensive rules, I think his style of play would greatly limit the Suns future - at a huge price.

When the Suns picked Marbury up, I thought he would be a better shooter than Kidd (he's not) and he would run more of an up tempo game than he did in New Jersey (he didn't). I thought maybe his ball hogging style was due to having all his teammates on IR, but he continued it on the Suns. He was better in 02-03, but regressed back to his old ways at the start of this past season.

Talent is not enough. Steve Francis presents the same kind of problems as Marbury does. Marbury has more talent, but their mindset is similar. Yes, there were games when I wished the Suns had Marbury with a few minutes left, but I watched him clank too many early option threes to get nostalgic.

 

[Joe Mama]

I don't think you are giving Marbury enough credit. He has a much better shooter than Jason Kidd. The only real problem with Marbury was that he likes to dominate the ball. I still think Amare's camp was complaining about that. He should have been. How many times did we see Marbury get double team at the top of the half-court set and eat up 15 seconds of the shot clock trying to get back into the offense instead of passing the ball? It happened repeatedly every single game.

Joe Mama

 

[Yuma]

So we just call Amare a center now and our championship chances go up 2 notches.

Hakeem = No bigger than Amare

Half of the final MVPs "centers" were as big or smaller than Amare.

Bird and McHale were both forwards....

...

I

Amare is still growing. I would NOT be surprised if Amare became our center of the future. If he keeps working out hard and adding muscle he could play ceneter easily. Ben Wallace is not that tall. The league has been filled with 6'9" good centers over it's history. At times Amare was even "center" in our smaller lineups on the floor at points last season. You could argue with the lack of true post up centers, Amare may get less fouls if he played center on defense. There are more power forwards that would give Amare match up problems, than centers in the Western Conference. Shaq is the only one I can see Amare really having problems with. Maybe Divacs, if he's hitting his jumper. If I were the Suns, I would work on having Amare think about center eventually! Arguably he would be one of the better ones in the league right now, and potentially could become the best. or at least top five eventually.

 

[Joe Mama]

Regardless of what their official measurements are Amare Stoudemire is at least 2" taller than Ben Wallace. You know what surprised me about Wallace? It was how good he is that taking big players like Shaquille O'Neal off the dribble and his passing skills. He also wasn't any worse than Amare Stoudemire with his midrange shot.

If Amare Stoudemire improves defensively and turns into a decent shot blocker like he was the first half of his first season is team will be much, much better next season. Offensively he's going to be virtually unstoppable as long as he can stay healthy.

Joe

 

[Yuma]

Another thing. If Amare became our center, it would be easier to find a viable free agent power forward who could make a difference on our team than a center. If you had Amare at center, and Marion at small forward, think of the possibilities at power forward and what a front line that would be for the Suns. Athletic, fast, powerful, possibly.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm just not sure it's a good idea to force Amare Stoudemire to battle bigger players on defense when he's expected to be the focus of the offense. It also sounds like a good way to get him into quick foul trouble.

Joe

 

[devilalum]

The one problem I see with this idea is the perception young players have of the center position. Lots of good big men have refused to play center lately or shyed away from signing with a team that wanted to use them as a center.

 

[Yuma]

I'm just not sure it's a good idea to force Amare Stoudemire to battle bigger players on defense when he's expected to be the focus of the offense. It also sounds like a good way to get him into quick foul trouble.

Joe

Like I said, he has played center on our smaller lineups at times last season. It appeared he got MORE fouls against the better power forwards than the centers in the Western Conference. There are so few "scoring" centers in our conference. Yao, Shaq, Divacs on a good night, and then what? The number of scoring power forwards is too inumerable to list. With more BULK and MUSCLE, I think you could argue it would be easier for Amare in the near future, rather than harder. Plus, even Shaq had problems keeping Amare in front of him, and that was without a good Amare jumper. Amare could shoot mid range jumpers all night long on Shaq. I think the Suns have to consider this at some point. It would allow better players for us to get on the court, even if it was 2 small forward types.

 

[Yuma]

The one problem I see with this idea is the perception young players have of the center position. Lots of good big men have refused to play center lately or shyed away from signing with a team that wanted to use them as a center.

As Shaq ages, more young guys could become the top dog at the center spot. I don't think they realize it. While the power forward spot has a lot of guys who can play for a few years, still. I think if someone explained the Suns history, and the immediate love we have for even half-decent centers, I think he could logically be shown that center would give him more pub, more recognition on all-star teams, and eventually MORE money in indorsements down the line.

 

[George O'Brien]

Shaq has certainly made playing center unattractive, but the refs have done their share. When I was growing up, a center could not just arbitrarily shove a defender aside while trying to get position. Also, they actually made the three second call more than once a week.

 

[Chaplin]

Here's a question. By now, Amare might be closer to 6'11" than to 6'10", and IF he was put in as our center, just how many "bigger" players would he have to match up against? Nowadays, most 7 footers are small forward Europeans! Of course, Yao Ming and Shaq are massive, but looking around the league, Amare could pretty much match up with every other center in the NBA.

So the arguement of "he can't guard bigger players" is moot, because nobody (except of course Shaq and Yao) really is that much bigger than him anyway.

 

[devilalum]

Here's a question. By now, Amare might be closer to 6'11" than to 6'10", and IF he was put in as our center, just how many "bigger" players would he have to match up against? Nowadays, most 7 footers are small forward Europeans! Of course, Yao Ming and Shaq are massive, but looking around the league, Amare could pretty much match up with every other center in the NBA.

So the arguement of "he can't guard bigger players" is moot, because nobody (except of course Shaq and Yao) really is that much bigger than him anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Amare seems to hold his own against Yao just fine.

 

[Chaplin]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Amare seems to hold his own against Yao just fine.

That's correct, but I was just taking a devil's advocate approach for all those that think Amare shouldn't guard Yao Ming regularly.

 

[George O'Brien]

That's correct, but I was just taking a devil's advocate approach for all those that think Amare shouldn't guard Yao Ming regularly.

A similar case could made about using Dice at center on defense.

BTW, I generally refer to "inside guys" rather than PF versus Center because they often switch positions on offense versus defense. It also depends on the kind of offense is being run.

That being said, I am not convinced that a front line of Amare and K-Mart is an especially good fit for the Suns, even if the price weren't so outrageous. Both guys are best suited playing the low block on offense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm just not sure it's a good idea to force Amare Stoudemire to battle bigger players on defense when he's expected to be the focus of the offense. It also sounds like a good way to get him into quick foul trouble.

Joe

Honestly Joe, in most of the center matchups, Amare would be dealing out the punishment rather than taking it.

For the occasional Shaq or Yao, just slide him over.

A Dice/Amare C/f comb is actually pretty decent.

 

[George O'Brien]

Honestly Joe, in most of the center matchups, Amare would be dealing out the punishment rather than taking it.

For the occasional Shaq or Yao, just slide him over.

A Dice/Amare C/f comb is actually pretty decent.

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about using Dice at center, but I'm not excited about the other options either. Most are going to be even more expensive and many have injury risks just like Dice.

IMHO, the Sun long range hope is still Lampe. He's not ready yet, which is why I'm interested in a short term solution until he is.

 

[Yuma]

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about using Dice at center, but I'm not excited about the other options either. Most are going to be even more expensive and many have injury risks just like Dice.

IMHO, the Sun long range hope is still Lampe. He's not ready yet, which is why I'm interested in a short term solution until he is.

I think Amare has a better chance of being our long range center at this point. Lampe has more bulk, but he hasn't shown he can play NBA defense. I know he didn't get to play much. However, as much as we say Amare has to pick up his defense, he IS better at D, than Lampe right now. Aside from being shorter, he looks like a college age Wilt Chamberlain right now. He plays like it on offense, too. Now if we can get him into the rebounding like Wilt....

 

[jbeecham]

I'm still hoping all this summer work will turn Lampe into a solid contributor next season. If he's actually working out with the Suns coaching staff and in the gym 5 days a week then maybe we won't have to sign a FA center. Hopefully, his progress was one of the reasons they were comfortable unloading Jahidi on Charlotte.

 

[F-Dog]

Amare simply isn't tall enough to play center full-time. Frankly, I don't like seeing him play center at all unless the other team has gone small.

IMO, Amare is 6'8" and change with socks on, about the same size as Karl Malone (and an inch or so shorter than McDyess). He hasn't gotten any taller since his rookie year, either.


Of the players on the roster, Lampe has the best chance of turning into a good starting center; he has the body to grow into the position, so it's just a matter of developing the right attitude and instincts. Lampe is still a couple years away, though (if it's going to happen at all).


I wouldn't mind if the Suns decided to build around F/Cs at center, except for maybe a role player with some bulk (like Jahidi). I think they'll have to find players who are tougher than McDyess, though, because he got pushed around pretty good when matched against the bigger centers.

 

[Chaplin]

IMO, Amare is 6'8" and change with socks on, about the same size as Karl Malone (and an inch or so shorter than McDyess). He hasn't gotten any taller since his rookie year, either.

IMO? How can you even formulate an opinion about how tall Amare Stoudemire is right now? I suppose you can go by ESPN.com's measurements, but those are from 2 years ago...

 

[slinslin]

F-Dog your opinion hardly matters in that regard.. Amare measured 6'10 and standing next to many other 6'10 players he is as tall or taler. Like Kenyon Martin for example who also measured 6'10 but is listed at his heigth without shoes. Or Stromile Swift.
He is also taller than Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer who are listed at 6'9 or so.