Kyler Murray is a Rookie

[Chopper0080]

Fair. And I think it is reasonable to be skeptical about those things.

He could also go to the Baker Mayfield place and start stinking up the joint. Who knows for sure.

I think his talent deserves a little more protection. Our line has gotten noticeably worse since we started playing teams (and defenses) who are in the playoff hunt or on their way to a bye.

1 to 2 of the positions need to be upgraded IMO. With RT at the very top of the list. Center would be awesome as well.

We are invested in him so I agree we need to add to the offensive line and the defense. Most everything else will have to wait.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Line to Line..... We are nowhere near Baltimore (FBO #4) or Buffalo (FBO #6). In fact we are 23rd in the run and 26th in the pass. And we pass a lot.

Yanda is a probable HOFer, Stanley a great tackle and Orlando Brown was a great pickup in the 3rd round last year.

We must fix our line. In fact..... It may be just as or even more important than Linebacker at this point.

Problem is..... Keim sucks at drafting O-Line prospects.

 

[DVontel]

Line to Line..... We are nowhere near Baltimore (FBO #4) or Buffalo (FBO #6). In fact we are 23rd in the run and 26th in the pass. And we pass a lot.

Yanda is a probable HOFer, Stanley a great tackle and Orlando Brown was a great pickup in the 3rd round last year.

We must fix our line. In fact..... It may be just as or even more important than Linebacker at this point.

Problem is..... Keim sucks at drafting O-Line prospects.

ILB shouldn’t even be a consideration. Especially in the top 5-7.

 

[Stout]

Guess that depends on your definition. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1632018-how-do-scouts-break-down-nfl-quarterback-prospects

This kid has:

Accuracy
Arm Talent
Release
Intelligence
Quick Feet
Mobility

What he needs is:
Pocket Presence
Maybe Leadership & Poise. Too early to tell on this one IMO.
Vision.

What he will never have:
Size

Personally..... he is playing like crap against top shelf opponents, receiving very little protection, and making some good plays and some bad/boneheaded plays.

Problem is that Boneheaded plays (Haden & Watt) will kill you much quicker than a dime TD pass to DJ will.

Well, he sometimes has accuracy, and sometimes misses wide-open receivers.
He has a strong arm, no doubt.
His release seems fine.
In no way will I agree, at this time, about his football IQ. Not after showing such godawful football IQ last night.
Quick feet? Rather happy feet, right now. Will that change? To be determined.
Mobility? To his detriment a lot, right now, because he's being mobile INTO the rush, not AWAY from it. And certainly not much mobility advantage when he's on designed runs. If he can learn to be decisive, this will change. If not...?

He definitely needs pocket presence.
No maybe about it, he MUST develop leadership and poise. How was that poise on the last drive? If he does another interview admitting his shortcomings while drilling holes in the ground with his eyes...man, does he need to figure it out leadership wise.
Vision? It may be more learning patience than vision, but time will tell.

 

[Dr. Jones]

ILB shouldn’t even be a consideration. Especially in the top 5-7.

Agreed. Ken Murray is someone I like in Rd 2 but he probably wont make it there.

Thomas/Jeudy/Wirfs in Rd 1 followed by Murray in Rd 2 would be nice.

Getting to 4 or 5 and then trading back to 6 or 7 and still getting Wirfs, Simmons, or Jeudy would be my personal fever dream at this point.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Well, he sometimes has accuracy, and sometimes misses wide-open receivers.
He has a strong arm, no doubt.
His release seems fine.
In no way will I agree, at this time, about his football IQ. Not after showing such godawful football IQ last night.
Quick feet? Rather happy feet, right now. Will that change? To be determined.
Mobility? To his detriment a lot, right now, because he's being mobile INTO the rush, not AWAY from it. And certainly not much mobility advantage when he's on designed runs. If he can learn to be decisive, this will change. If not...?

He definitely needs pocket presence.
No maybe about it, he MUST develop leadership and poise. How was that poise on the last drive? If he does another interview admitting his shortcomings while drilling holes in the ground with his eyes...man, does he need to figure it out leadership wise.
Vision? It may be more learning patience than vision, but time will tell.

Last nights game was bad. Truly bad for him.


Fitz grew up from a leadership perspective. Hopefully, so will Kyler.

 

[kerouac9]

I think one thing is being overlooked in the comparison. Most of Lamar's runs to the perimeter are on read option plays where the power run game of Ingram sucks the defense inside and LJ keeps the ball instead and goes outside. We are not running a whole lot of read option plays and when we do it is not nearly as effective as we don't have the inside running success that they do.

Purely when scrambling I believe Kyler is right up there with Lamar as he is as quick or quicker and accelerates just as fast if not faster. Where LJ clearly has him beat is his top speed and his willingness/ability to break through tackles. LJ also has a much stronger group of blockers giving him lanes in the run game.

We run a ton of read option. The run where KM ran directly into three waiting Steelers defense backs was a read option.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think one thing is being overlooked in the comparison. Most of Lamar's runs to the perimeter are on read option plays where the power run game of Ingram sucks the defense inside and LJ keeps the ball instead and goes outside. We are not running a whole lot of read option plays and when we do it is not nearly as effective as we don't have the inside running success that they do.

They didn't have any power running game last season before Jackson took over and started running circles around everyone. Lamar opens up the offense to make the inside power game successful, not the other way around.

Purely when scrambling I believe Kyler is right up there with Lamar as he is as quick or quicker and accelerates just as fast if not faster. Where LJ clearly has him beat is his top speed and his willingness/ability to break through tackles. LJ also has a much stronger group of blockers giving him lanes in the run game.

Man... between this and the idea that Devin Booker will one day be a better offensive player than Kobe Bryant, I can only conclude you watch sports through completely fan colored glasses. I can't imagine anyone thinks Kyler's quicks and acceleration are just as fast if not faster than Jackson. That's a really out there claim.

 

[Arz101]

I think one thing is being overlooked in the comparison. Most of Lamar's runs to the perimeter are on read option plays where the power run game of Ingram sucks the defense inside and LJ keeps the ball instead and goes outside. We are not running a whole lot of read option plays and when we do it is not nearly as effective as we don't have the inside running success that they do.

Purely when scrambling I believe Kyler is right up there with Lamar as he is as quick or quicker and accelerates just as fast if not faster. Where LJ clearly has him beat is his top speed and his willingness/ability to break through tackles. LJ also has a much stronger group of blockers giving him lanes in the run game.

Murray could not outrun Bud Dupree forget about Lamar. And you know what, it is perfectly OK, if Murray doesn't run at all and instead perfects the art of passing football from pocket. That will help Murray and Cardinals for a long-long-long time. It all starts with Murray not dropping eyes in the pocket. That is where Murray and KK need to start their conversation

 

[Cheesebeef]

Murray could not outrun Bud Dupree forget about Lamar. And you know what, it is perfectly OK, if Murray doesn't run at all and instead perfects the art of passing football from pocket. That will help Murray and Cardinals for a long-long-long time. It all starts with Murray not dropping eyes in the pocket. That is where Murray and KK need to start their conversation

agreed. he's got major tools just as a QB. but he has to nail those down to a T but that's gonna be a tall task because I doubt Keim can surround him with enough talent to do so and jury's out on whether or not Coach Gosling knows how to coach him at this level.

 

[Outerlimits]

I was not in favor of replacing Rosen with Murray, but admit I was wrong even with his poor performance the last couple games. He makes mistakes and has a ways to go, but some on here seem to ignore the many good games this year where our putrid defense couldn't hold the lead.

yesterday the loss was largely on him but that happens sometimes, even to really good veteran quarterbacks. Also the Rams defense did pretty much the same thing to a very good Seahawks team last night as they did to us a week ago.

it just seems odd to me so many seem to be eager to declare Murray a bust. Or they pretend to be psychic by claiming he is destined to never be anything more than a middle of the pack QB. It's year one people, calm down.

Frankly, the jury is still out. He has shown quite a few times this year that he can be a very good QB. He has always had periods where he looks pretty bad. Not entirely unexpected for a rookie season, so I'm curious to see how he progresses the next few years.

 

[Russ Smith]

To me, Rosen never showed the arm talent or accuracy that Murray has, both were put in crappy situations.

Yep as a UCLA fan I wanted Rosen to be great but i said it in college and we saw it last year, there's something missing. he's got the size, he's got the brains, he has the arm, but he never had "it". Josh made some great throws as a rookie but nothing like the ones Kyler has made. I mean just to pick out 2 the one ti Isabella against SF and the one yesterday to Johnson. We're talking a HOF CB in Richard Sherman on the first one and on the 2nd one a Pitt DB literally thought I'm baiting you into throwing this ball, and both of them were not only not picked off, but were caught for TD's(great run by Andy). Yeah there's some luck involved sure but those were just lasers, on target just amazing throws. There are very few NFL Qb's who can make those throws.

I think the 3 biggest disappointments for his rookie year IMO are in no order, the going back not forwards in the pocket leading to big sacks, the hesitance to run, and that he's not nearly as dangerous throwing on the run as I thought he would be.

I spent the whole offseason saying I don't want a running QB but with him what I want is when it's there, take it. When he runs more this offense is light years better, not like Lamar Jackson he's not that good of a runner and he'll get hurt. But when it's there like the 4th and 2, take off and get it. I actually liked how pissed he got at DJ for missing that block on the designed run, it showed fire, but then later in the game we didn't see that fire when we needed it and he threw the pick.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I said this in another thread:

Murray is so scared to take a hit that it is hurting his game. A good chunk of what makes him have the potential to be special is his legs. That 2nd interception he easily scored if he runs hard.

I think this game shows that teams are figuring out how to play him. Make him nervous in the pocket, crash the edges hard and force the pocket into him.

 

[Russ Smith]

I was not in favor of replacing Rosen with Murray, but admit I was wrong even with his poor performance the last couple games. He makes mistakes and has a ways to go, but some on here seem to ignore the many good games this year where our putrid defense couldn't hold the lead.

yesterday the loss was largely on him but that happens sometimes, even to really good veteran quarterbacks. Also the Rams defense did pretty much the same thing to a very good Seahawks team last night as they did to us a week ago.

it just seems odd to me so many seem to be eager to declare Murray a bust. Or they pretend to be psychic by claiming he is destined to never be anything more than a middle of the pack QB. It's year one people, calm down.

Frankly, the jury is still out. He has shown quite a few times this year that he can be a very good QB. He has always had periods where he looks pretty bad. Not entirely unexpected for a rookie season, so I'm curious to see how he progresses the next few years.

I'm 54 and I've been watching the Cards since 75. I think what's going on is that we've never seen anything like Kyler Murray in the NFL. I mean even Wilson is a bit taller and much "thicker" and even as a rookie he wasn't as hesitant to take contact. I'm all for sliding, getting out of bounds not taking big hits, but sometimes Kyler goes down with no contact or won't run when he has to, just don't see that with Wilson.

So I think it's much harder for any of us to have a clue how good he's going to be. The numbers overall are going to wind up looking pretty good unless he throws 2-3 picks a game the last 3. one not good defense 2 good ones it'll be interesting to see how he finishes. But I think he's just such an outlier it's really hard to use our past experience to judge him.

I think Jones will eventually be good, I think Haskins is going to take awhile and I'm honestly not that high on him he has very weird mechanics a slow delivery, if I were comparing him to anybody it would be Leftwich who never got over the hump. But there's really not anybody for me to compare Murray to the closest is Wilson and it took me years to appreciate how good Wilson was.

 

[TheCardFan]

I think the 3 biggest disappointments for his rookie year IMO are in no order, the going back not forwards in the pocket leading to big sacks, the hesitance to run, and that he's not nearly as dangerous throwing on the run as I thought he would be.

Agreed.

The thing I am most surprised about is the lack of downfield throws. Murray has a very strong arm and the accuracy to throw deep...why don't we take more shots?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Agreed.

The thing I am most surprised about is the lack of downfield throws. Murray has a very strong arm and the accuracy to throw deep...why don't we take more shots?

That usually requires time in the pocket to let the play develop. A lot of times he doesn't have that time and sometimes he does, but gets antsy.

Defenses are also pretty consistently going to a shell and taking away the deep passing game. The best way to counter is to beat them up with the run game and PA out of it, but our run game hasn't been effective of late.

When defenses have allowed us to go deep we have taken it ala the TB game, but most teams are really focusing on taking it away.

 

[Russ Smith]

Agreed.

The thing I am most surprised about is the lack of downfield throws. Murray has a very strong arm and the accuracy to throw deep...why don't we take more shots?

Personally I don't think he trusts the OL for one to protect him that long. But I think the biggest issue is he only trusts 3 receivers on the team, Fitz, Kirk and David Johnson. Seems like half the deep throws this year have gone to Kirk complete or not, he just doesn't trust Isabella, Byrd etc.

They have to get better, and he has to be willing to take those shots.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Murray is playing scared. But that is a byproduct of the Cardinals playing 10 personnel too often.

He's playing scared because of having to run for his life. RT Murray got beat all day long yesterday, couldn't handle Watt or Dupree.

 

[juza76]

Personally I don't think he trusts the OL for one to protect him that long. But I think the biggest issue is he only trusts 3 receivers on the team, Fitz, Kirk and David Johnson. Seems like half the deep throws this year have gone to Kirk complete or not, he just doesn't trust Isabella, Byrd etc.

They have to get better, and he has to be willing to take those shots.

Fitzgerald is the receiver he target most but the ratio (target-reception) is not good at all and most of his catches are short passes

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Sure but there's lots to work with. Remember he basically played 1 year in college and until a year ago he wasn't sure if he was a football player or a baseball player. Even though his dad is a QB coach there is SOME reason to expect him to get much better now that he's a full time football player.

I don't know if you saw any of the Washington game today but it was striking to me. Washington ran for over 100 yards, they gave up some sacks but they basically did a decent job protecting Haskins but he was just so slow to recognize the defense it was striking. they talked about it during the game when they committed to playing him they fundamentally changed their offense to be more run oriented to help Haskins, something Murray hasn't had. They don't have a great OL but they actually have several speedy WR's and several talented RB's including the ageless Peterson. But since Haskins became the QB the passing game has completely fallen apart because he's just nowhere near ready for the NFL.

So same draft class same lack of college experience but not even close in terms of how NFL read they are. I see Murray make throws every week, like the one to Johnson for the TD or the one off the run to Kirk for a diving first down that you can see he has NFL talent. I was going back and forth between Minnesota and Washington because I have Cook and Guice on my fantasy team so until Guice got hurt I was watching big chunks of that game. Haskins didn't make one throw in the game that impressed, not a single one. He's in that stage where if the guy isn't wide open he's afraid to let it go he doesn't trust what he sees. They're the same age same draft class similar college PT, but Murray is WAY ahead.

Jones with the Giants has talent but is very turnover prone, Murray turning it over of late but on the season has been quite good at protecting the ball. I think if we were going to take a QB, we took the right one. We just have to coach him up and put the right pieces around him.

I see him make rookie mistakes that frustrate me, like 2 of the 3 interceptions yesterday. I also see him running for his life on a whole lot of plays, our OL isn't as bad off as the DL but still needs upgrading. Murray (RT) couldn't keep his man out of the backfield Sunday, damn shame Gilbert got hurt. We have our QB. Murray doesn't worry me one bit.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

He has made us a significantly better offense and that can't be argued against with any stats.

The defense also happens to be much worse this year and that is why the team as a whole isn't a whole lot better. Make no mistake the team is absolutely better all around than last year, but not by nearly as much as they would be if the defense was even average.

Totally agree. Our defense is a step below garbage. That should be the main discussion. I'm not worried about KM.

 

[HoodieBets]

I see him make rookie mistakes that frustrate me, like 2 of the 3 interceptions yesterday. I also see him running for his life on a whole lot of plays, our OL isn't as bad off as the DL but still needs upgrading. Murray (RT) couldn't keep his man out of the backfield Sunday, damn shame Gilbert got hurt. We have our QB. Murray doesn't worry me one bit.

I think him running for his life is partly on him. I’ve seen clean pockets that for some reason he thinks he needs to dip out of instead on step up and throw. He needs to learn to climb the pocket. He thinks he is faster than he is and he can run back 10 yards get away and heave a pass. It’s just not there he needs to learn to be a different kind of QB in the NFL.


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[Cardsfaninlouky]

But if he still had that “upside”, he would be starting in Miami right now.

Thank you. Well said.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I think him running for his life is partly on him. I’ve seen clean pockets that for some reason he thinks he needs to dip out of instead on step up and throw. He needs to learn to climb the pocket. He thinks he is faster than he is and he can run back 10 yards get away and heave a pass. It’s just not there he needs to learn to be a different kind of QB in the NFL.


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I agree with that. He does tend to move into some sacks while scrambling. I also think he's figuring out it's a whole lot harder to outrun DE's in the NFL, they are faster than what he was playing against at Oklahoma. He will learn, it's much easier to correct some mistakes if he doesn't have to scramble though imo. He's made enough wow throws to convince me that he's our guy. Hell, I can't wait to watch him play every Sunday, gonna watch the Browns game this Sunday with a Browns fan here in Louisville at a sports bar, a Browns sports bar at that lol. I believe in this kid, he just needs more on offense around him & our defense needs a total rebuild, maybe not total but at least 5-6 players. I'm excited about our future but that's me, others have different opinions & that's fine too.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I don’t think the OL was bad again this week. Usually the announcers will say something like, “Murray doesn’t stand a chance out there.” Nothing like that came up. Murray was just extremely indecisive in the pocket.

I thought he’d be a guy who could recognize when the pass play wasn’t there and run, and then develop pocket awareness down the line. Instead he looks afraid to run or pass.

He literally tripped over his own feet today. That’s not on AQ Shipley.

Maybe not on AQ but definitely on Justin Murray. I think he just missed another block lol. His man was in the backfield all day long. KM made 2 bad decisions against the Steelers that cost us the game imo. First Int..........Clay was running wide open down the sideline with his head turned around waiting for the pass. Instead he throws it to Kirk & it was picked off. Second Int.........it was 3rd & 2, looked like he could've ran it in for a TD, definitely could've got the 2 yds. Instead, he throws it into the end zone & Watt picked it off. Not to mention the ST TD return they gave up. Murray will get better but that's my opinion.