Kyler Murray is a Rookie

[BW52]

Kind of goes with what I was saying about Kyler. Now I didn't think he'd be this good from the pocket early and I had NO IDEA he'd be this bad outside the pocket. So I get where fans are disappointed by this. Cause if he was at least just decent outside the pocket we'd have more wins and better production.

However, he's not Wilson or Mahomes in those scramble drills.
@Russ Smith @PACardsFan

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The thing I do fear is with his throwing motion he might not be an elite passer on the run. He's got extremely short arms and seems to generate most of his power when his feet are set. Ball tends to sail when he's on the move. Evidence by him missing Kirk for that scramble throw against the Saints. It's something he's going to really have to work on, but we need the wrs to get better at moving on the run as well.

Hoping that with experience gained by playing together the WRS and KM will be able to be more on the same page in all situations .Flaws being correctable is a plus along with more experience and playing more to KMs strengths is whats needed .

 

[Krangodnzr]

It's crazy that you're so thirsty to excuse Murray just two days after a second disastrous outing in a row that you're comparing him to the rookie seasons of two pocket passers — one who's rookie season was over 20 years ago (and he still had a positive DVOA and DYAR) and another who is sub-.500 as a starter for his career. Wild.

STRAW MAN KING STRIKES AGAIN!

Where have I excused his performance? It was pitiful outside of a drive or two.

Come on man! You are better than this. Why are you mischaracterizing what I am saying and putting words in mouth?

Maybe I need to write this in crayon so you can understand my point.

My point is that You should look at Murrays performance in this game vs the rest of the year. Yes hes had some awful performances. So did many other rookie QBs. Hes had a solid year. For a good chunk of the season he has been top ten in QBR. But the Murray Derangement crowd looks for every little ***** in the armor to talk smack.

 

[Krangodnzr]

2 weeks ago

Kyler was on pace to have the most efficient season a #1 pick has ever had..

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If he has a few more stinkers....yea overall the season will be just...fine. However, two horrific weeks aren't going to change that.

Not to mention at that time he had 3 to 4 TDs taken away because of drops (penalty)

I'd say the last two crash and burns has brough him to down solid. If it continues...yea fine is ok. QB spot also holds more value.

Thanks for being the level headed one!

 

[kerouac9]

STRAW MAN KING STRIKES AGAIN!

Where have I excused his performance? It was pitiful outside of a drive or two.

Come on man! You are better than this. Why are you mischaracterizing what I am saying and putting words in mouth?

Maybe I need to write this in crayon so you can understand my point.

My point is that You should look at Murrays performance in this game vs the rest of the year. Yes hes had some awful performances. So did many other rookie QBs. Hes had a solid year. For a good chunk of the season he has been top ten in QBR. But the Murray Derangement crowd looks for every little ***** in the armor to talk smack.

Your one-line response really provided a lot of context. Let's take a look at what your favorite metric site thinks about Murray's rookie season:

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So much derangement. He's ranked just above Dwayne Haskins. https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-entering-week-14-2019

QBR is an outlier metric, and the last two weeks of performances have pushed even that analytic down to 15th for the year.

 

[azsouthendzone]

Debating Kyler as an NFL QB is pretty hilarious. This was an article right after the SF game. Literally two games ago.
https://www.azcardinals.com/news/kyler-murray-already-rated-a-top-10-quarterback

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Kind of goes with what I was saying about Kyler. Now I didn't think he'd be this good from the pocket early and I had NO IDEA he'd be this bad outside the pocket. So I get where fans are disappointed by this. Cause if he was at least just decent outside the pocket we'd have more wins and better production.

However, he's not Wilson or Mahomes in those scramble drills.
@Russ Smith @PACardsFan

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The thing I do fear is with his throwing motion he might not be an elite passer on the run. He's got extremely short arms and seems to generate most of his power when his feet are set. Ball tends to sail when he's on the move. Evidence by him missing Kirk for that scramble throw against the Saints. It's something he's going to really have to work on, but we need the wrs to get better at moving on the run as well.

I don't think he necessarily has an issue with velocity on the run. The issue is that he just doesn't seem real confident in his ability to make those "miracle" plays on the run. The fact that he gets velocity when throwing off his back foot would suggest to me that he could get plenty of velocity throwing on the run.

 

[Solar7]

Debating Kyler as an NFL QB is pretty hilarious. This was an article right after the SF game. Literally two games ago.
https://www.azcardinals.com/news/kyler-murray-already-rated-a-top-10-quarterback

Ah, yes, the team site promoting a fluff post on Twitter by a guy who literally invented the made-up stat he's using. Clearly a top-10 QB without debate.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Ah, yes, the team site promoting a fluff post on Twitter by a guy who literally invented the made-up stat he's using. Clearly a top-10 QB without debate.

It's not fluff to point out the fact that at that point in time he had the 9th best QBR in the NFL. At that point in the season he was a top 10 QB according to the numbers.

He has certainly struggled the last couple games, but as long as he bounces back in the remaining games it won't be a major issue.

 

[Solar7]

It's not fluff to point out the fact that at that point in time he had the 9th best QBR in the NFL. At that point in the season he was a top 10 QB according to the numbers.

He has certainly struggled the last couple games, but as long as he bounces back in the remaining games it won't be a major issue.

Call me a traditionalist, but I struggle to really buy into stats created by organizations in the past few years as a major indicator of success. QBR and DVOA are just made-up things that ignore tons of other stats. Sure, they have some relevance, but closing the book on a discussion with them is over the top.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Call me a traditionalist, but I struggle to really buy into stats created by organizations in the past few years as a major indicator of success. QBR and DVOA are just made-up things that ignore tons of other stats. Sure, they have some relevance, but closing the book on a discussion with them is over the top.

In other words those stats don't agree with my beliefs so I will ignore them?

I'm being a little facetious with that, but that tends to be how stats are treated. Use them if they help and ignore them if they don't.

Of course there is no one stat that fully encompasses everything perfectly, but QBR is one of the best stats we have to determine the overall performance of a QB.

Kyler is currently rated 15th in total QBR so he has only dropped 6 spots since his last 2 poor performances.

 

[Solar7]

In other words those stats don't agree with my beliefs so I will ignore them?

I'm being a little facetious with that, but that tends to be how stats are treated. Use them if they help and ignore them if they don't.

Of course there is no one stat that fully encompasses everything perfectly, but QBR is one of the best stats we have to determine the overall performance of a QB.

Kyler is currently rated 15th in total QBR so he has only dropped 6 spots since his last 2 poor performances.

It's not that I don't "believe" them, but you can easily manipulate stats, especially the ones like these, that are literally subjective. Read through QBR and tell me if you think it's really a great indicator of success for a guy with 16 TDs.

DVOA doesn't even account for scoring. It's like, yeah, we know this offense moved the ball up and down the field, and we've had good 4th down success, but however you slice it, you're looking at a QB that is matched with Kyle Allen for passing TDs, tied for 20th. His rating is again 21st.

I don't mean to take away from Kyler's successes either, I just don't love a stat that takes 19 paragraphs to explain (DVOA).

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's not that I don't "believe" them, but you can easily manipulate stats, especially the ones like these, that are literally subjective. Read through QBR and tell me if you think it's really a great indicator of success for a guy with 16 TDs.

DVOA doesn't even account for scoring. It's like, yeah, we know this offense moved the ball up and down the field, and we've had good 4th down success, but however you slice it, you're looking at a QB that is matched with Kyle Allen for passing TDs, tied for 20th. His rating is again 21st.

I don't mean to take away from Kyler's successes either, I just don't love a stat that takes 19 paragraphs to explain (DVOA).

QBR accounts for everything a QB does and that includes when they run the ball. That is a big part of the reason he is ranked where he is, but also because he has been very good for most of the season with protecting the ball. For instance passer rating doesn't include all the times a QB might turn the ball over via fumble (which Kyler has yet to do), but QBR would.

 

[Solar7]

QBR accounts for everything a QB does and that includes when they run the ball. That is a big part of the reason he is ranked where he is, but also because he has been very good for most of the season with protecting the ball. For instance passer rating doesn't include all the times a QB might turn the ball over via fumble (which Kyler has yet to do), but QBR would.

Trust me, I get what it is, but just seasons ago, NFL fans were all laughing at it. No one really uses it besides ESPN.

Not gonna defend DVOA? You don't really have to, but meh. It's not that I'm anti-analytics either, but plenty of less-complex metrics paint a picture of the reasons we haven't been able to win.

 

[gimpy]

Com'on. If the stats are there, might as well use them. You pick what you want. He can pick what he wants and I can pick what I want.

Stats are stats. Can be made to say about anything.

 

[Solar7]

Com'on. If the stats are there, might as well use them. You pick what you want. He can pick what he wants and I can pick what I want.

Stats are stats. Can be made to say about anything.

The only point was that a fluff piece by the team site a few weeks back does not proof make.

 

[Russ Smith]

QBR is very confusing but keep in mind some of the things that explain the odd rankings every year(like Fitzpatrick ahead of Brady a couple of years ago) are things that do NOT favor Kyler. For example one of the biggest reasons Fitz was rated ahead of Brady is that Fitz got sacked so infrequently that year, QBR punished Brady for taking sacks, imagine what QBR is doing to the guy who's taken 49 of them.

I don't love QBR but I think its' better than I thought initially, it attempts to account for everything the QB does it can't do that I don't think any stat yet has, but I don't think it's as terrible as I initially did.

 

[GatorAZ]

I get being upset about the losses and poor play. However, based on tape and metrics seems far more good than bad. Being middle of the pack with this roster should bring optimism.

Lamar Jackson was actually worse than Kyler was throwing the ball against this Steelers defense. His defense won the game for him.



He's currently the favorite for MVP.



I think its a combination of two things. One can maybe fixed the other..probably not.

1. I think part of is the weight gain. He's not as fast or quick as he was in college. Some guys it takes a year or so to gain muscle and still retain that kind of speed. It happened with Lamar. Although he rushed for some yards last year he didn't look as dynamic as he did in college imo. Had a full NFL off season and redefined his body to fit for the NFL. Lets hope the same for Kyler.

2. Well...he's got short legs/strides. Sometimes him taking a sidestep or trying to get around the edge doesn't get a lot of distance. Defenders are able to close the gap on him quickly because he's just as explosive in short distance.

I think the fact he's got caught so much is jarring for him.

So he needs to figure out how to be as explosive as he was last year.


Should be noted that Allen has a worse QBR than Kyler, runs into sacks just like him and Bills fans are less optimistic about his ability to throw.

At Oklahoma he looked like he was 185 lbs at the most. At A&M he looked 170 lbs... It’s been obvious since the pre draft process that he’s made an effort to gain significant weight and it’s affected his explosiveness. He’s still a freak but like anything it’ll take time for him to adjust to his body and know if he can beat his man or make the edge.

 

[SoonerLou]

At Oklahoma he looked like he was 185 lbs at the most. At A&M he looked 170 lbs... It’s been obvious since the pre draft process that he’s made an effort to gain significant weight and it’s affected his explosiveness. He’s still a freak but like anything it’ll take time for him to adjust to his body and know if he can beat his man or make the edge.

I'm not a health nut (although I really need to be better...wish me luck)

However, he is vegan. Is it true that being vegan makes it tough to maintain strength and also recover from injury?

Seems like Cam Newton physically isn't as explosive since going vegan.

Again I could be totally off. Hopefully he physically improves for the grind of the NFL.