Kyler Murray Stat Line vs Bengals

[BigRedRage]

Leaning that way but Kyler has the coaching and running game advantage. That’s not saying either are anything special but compared to what Josh has/had. I would’ve liked to have seen Josh in a situation where everything around him wasn’t set to fail. But, results are results and Kyler has the advantage to this point.

That was my original standpoint. Once the moves were made, I moved on. Watching this season, I think Murray is in the upper echelon of a lot of catagories and lowe echelon of others. If anything, he sure seems better than average and we have watched him throw the team on his back multiple times now. I am confident we are moving in the right direction. The team is playing better but his accuracy is leaps and bounds better too.

 

[BigRedRage]

as of now:

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Cardinals stats was 12 games?

vs murray

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5 games

 

[Chopper0080]

I’m sorry I have to chuckle a bit at your response as you purposefully ignore Patrick peterson’s availability, mathieu, Frostee , and veldheer, and more veteran players on defense and offense and the fact that not only did all of those guys in 2017 play together for years but also in the same schemes for years.

Veldheer was terrible in 2017. That was the year they moved him to the right side and then flipped him to the left side when Humphries got injured.

Frostee Rucker was replacement level player. You can make an argument that none of our current DEs are as good, but Philon would have been easily.

Mathieu was run out of town by this board so it's silly to use him as your statement piece. I would argue that Baker is playing close to the level Mathieu was that year.

Patrick Peterson is still on the roster. Yes he is suspended, but he is still part of the roster. Stuff happens. Palmer got injured in 2017 and played 7 games. You can argue his absence hurt that team more than Peterson's will hurt ours as Palmer was a QB.

You are comparing Dansby/Bucannon to Hicks/Reddick and the difference is minute.

Veldheer/DJ Humphries (5 games)/Wetzel vs Humphries/Murray/Gilbert (0 games). There might be a slight difference, but it is slight at best.

Kerwynn Williams vs Chase Edmonds

Fitz, John Brown, Jaron Brown, JJ Nelson vs Fitz, Kirk, KJohnson, Sherfield. Again...minute.

Tramon Williams vs Trumaine Brock...meh.

You speak like there is this vast gap in terms of talent between these two rosters and there just isn't. It is quibbling.

 

[Chopper0080]

I would ask Chopper what were/are the differences in the teams that we played back then compared to now? You've compared our players, but what about the teams strengths and weaknesses? Does that make a huge difference?

Again...there is no way to compare. Any difference would be a minuscule.

The end of the argument should be that the roster won 8 game in a season when Blaine Gabbert and Drew Stanton started a combined 9 games with very little difference in overall talent. Coaching does matter. Scheme matters.

 

[BW52]

Well, I don't believe you for a second. You're always ripping him. And I get tired of it

And I'm not sure what "dumba** plays" you are talking about that you expected more?

I don't give a flying you know what if you believe it or not .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Again...there is no way to compare. Any difference would be a minuscule.

The end of the argument should be that the roster won 8 game in a season when Blaine Gabbert and Drew Stanton started a combined 9 games with very little difference in overall talent. Coaching does matter. Scheme matters.

Agree that coaching and scheme matters. So does continuity of scheme and players familiarity with one and other. That team was largely 5 years in with both. This team is largely five games in with both.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Agree that coaching and scheme matters. So does continuity of scheme and players familiarity with one and other. That team was largely 5 years in with both. This team is largely five games in with both.

Yep.

Year one with Arians started out real rocky.

And he had gazillionaire year old Carson Palmer which helped.

 

[Chopper0080]

Agree that coaching and scheme matters. So does continuity of scheme and players familiarity with one and other. That team was largely 5 years in with both. This team is largely five games in with both.

And that is why I am good with 5 or 6 wins on the seasons and calling it a success. However, when you only win 3 or 4 it is because of below average QB play and/or terrible schemes and coaching. Kyler Murray validates his draft position initially by figuring out how to take this team to 5 or 6 wins on the season IMO.

vs Falcons
@ Giants
@ Saints
vs 49ers
bye
vs Rams
vs Steelers
vs Browns
@Seahawks
@Rams

There should be 4 or 5 wins in there if Murray is developing and there is not a litany of injuries.

 

[wit3card]

And that is why I am good with 5 or 6 wins on the seasons and calling it a success. However, when you only win 3 or 4 it is because of below average QB play and/or terrible schemes and coaching. Kyler Murray validates his draft position initially by figuring out how to take this team to 5 or 6 wins on the season IMO.

vs Falcons
@ Giants
@ Saints
vs 49ers
bye
vs Rams
vs Steelers
vs Browns
@Seahawks
@Rams

There should be 4 or 5 wins in there if Murray is developing and there is not a litany of injuries.

So you mean he needs to beat Falcons, Giants, Steeler @ Browns and one of Saints, Rams, 49er, Seattle? the first 4 is maybe possible but the later... for now seem unrealistic. if we come to 4-11-1 that would be okay. Everything better is already great.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I just cannot judge the wins as 'he' needs to since this is a team sport. If he keeps playing like he does and improving, I will not put the win/loss column as my criteria for judging him

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I just cannot judge the wins as 'he' needs to since this is a team sport. If he keeps playing like he does and improving, I will not put the win/loss column as my criteria for judging him

Agreed. Pinning everything on either a rookie QB or the coaching is just outright silly when in any given game up to 30+ players play and any individual play by an individual player can unwind what everyone else has done all game long.

 

[Chopper0080]

I just cannot judge the wins as 'he' needs to since this is a team sport. If he keeps playing like he does and improving, I will not put the win/loss column as my criteria for judging him

He is the QB in an offensive league. As the QB goes, the team goes. The Bears have as stacked a roster as any in the NFL and they are 3-2 because of their QB. Same with the Vikings. Titans are 2-3 with a good roster and a bad QB. The Steelers went from a division winner to an afterthought with an injury to their QB. Seahawks...meh roster, great QB. Bengals...bad QB...bad record.

Good QB play wins and bad QB play loses. That is the nature of the NFL 9 games out of 10.

 

[DVontel]

He is the QB in an offensive league. As the QB goes, the team goes. The Bears have as stacked a roster as any in the NFL and they are 3-2 because of their QB. Same with the Vikings. Titans are 2-3 with a good roster and a bad QB. The Steelers went from a division winner to an afterthought with an injury to their QB. Seahawks...meh roster, great QB. Bengals...bad QB...bad record.

Good QB play wins and bad QB play loses. That is the nature of the NFL 9 games out of 10.

Wouldn’t say Seattle has a meh roster.

 

[Chopper0080]

So you mean he needs to beat Falcons, Giants, Steeler @ Browns and one of Saints, Rams, 49er, Seattle? the first 4 is maybe possible but the later... for now seem unrealistic. if we come to 4-11-1 that would be okay. Everything better is already great.

If Murray can beat the down spiraling Falcons, the Daniel Jones led Giants, the Mason Rudolph led Steelers and the trainwreck Browns/win ONE division game...that is a really bad sign.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

And that is why I am good with 5 or 6 wins on the seasons and calling it a success. However, when you only win 3 or 4 it is because of below average QB play and/or terrible schemes and coaching. Kyler Murray validates his draft position initially by figuring out how to take this team to 5 or 6 wins on the season IMO.

vs Falcons
@ Giants
@ Saints
vs 49ers
bye
vs Rams
vs Steelers
vs Browns
@Seahawks
@Rams

There should be 4 or 5 wins in there if Murray is developing and there is not a litany of injuries.

I disagree with the idea that 3-4 wins is some how much different than 5-6. I mean we could literally be talking the difference between a couple plays going our way or the other way. The best way to evaluate how the team is doing is simply to watch the games an determine if there is progress on the field. Being good with the season because we have 5-6 wins, but not good with it simply because that number is 1-2 lower makes no sense to me.

 

[Chopper0080]

Wouldn’t say Seattle has a meh roster.

Tyler Lockett, Duane Brown, Jadaveon Clowney, KJ Wright, Bobby Wagner and Russ are the only top end players that I see on that roster.

 

[HoodieBets]

Wouldn’t say Seattle has a meh roster.

Bad OLine, middle of the road RB, meh WRs and an average defense that is middle of the pack in yards allowed and points allowed. They are the definition of a meh roster.


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[Chopper0080]

I disagree with the idea that 3-4 wins is some how much different than 5-6. I mean we could literally be talking the difference between a couple plays going our way or the other way. The best way to evaluate how the team is doing is simply to watch the games an determine if there is progress on the field. Being good with the season because we have 5-6 wins, but not good with it simply because that number is 1-2 lower makes no sense to me.

If you are competitive in games, some are going to go your way. Results do matter. Our offense is better, but until we start scoring TDs instead of FGs, it is not good. Same goes with wins. A young, superstar QB has to find a way to get it done. He has 9 games left. Winning 44% of those (4) is a reasonable expectation. Accepting less is making excuses unless something significant happens in terms of team health.

 

[DVontel]

Tyler Lockett, Duane Brown, Jadaveon Clowney, KJ Wright, Bobby Wagner and Russ are the only top end players that I see on that roster.

You just named 3 great players between Russ, Wagner, & Clowney. Lockett, Duane, & Wright are also really 6. Just off of those 6 you named, that isn’t a “meh” roster.

Poona Ford is underrated, but really good. Jarran Reed is also good despite being suspended at the moment.

Russ is special, but it’s not like he’s carrying a roster like the Giants.

I’d argue a “meh” roster that’s currently over .500 is the Raiders.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

If you are competitive in games, some are going to go your way. Results do matter. Our offense is better, but until we start scoring TDs instead of FGs, it is not good. Same goes with wins. A young, superstar QB has to find a way to get it done. He has 9 games left. Winning 44% of those (4) is a reasonable expectation. Accepting less is making excuses unless something significant happens in terms of team health.

Okay so let's say they are competitive in quite a few more games this year and end up with a total of 3-4 wins, but they have a few games where the offense was really good and scores 30+ points, but the defense is bad and gives up even more. Would that not be a stipulation that might change your perspective on the win total?

My point is just looking at win total without considering what happened in the games to result in that win total seems rather pointless. Sure if they go 3-12-1 and look every bit like what you would expect a team with that kind of record to look like during the remaining games than it makes sense to question the coach and maybe even Murray. However there is absolutely possible outcomes where the team ends up with a record similar to that and yet look much better than that record would suggest.

 

[TJ]

I disagree with the idea that 3-4 wins is some how much different than 5-6. I mean we could literally be talking the difference between a couple plays going our way or the other way. The best way to evaluate how the team is doing is simply to watch the games an determine if there is progress on the field. Being good with the season because we have 5-6 wins, but not good with it simply because that number is 1-2 lower makes no sense to me.

How many 3-4 win teams have you looked back on and said, “that team is progressing?” If Murray is progressing, it’ll show up on in the win column, not just the stat sheet or anecdotal evidence. If we’re 6-9-1 at the end of the year, that’d be a 3.5 win improvement, which is more than double the win total from last year. That’s something measurable and meaningful enough to hang your hat on

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

How many 3-4 win teams have you looked back on and said, “that team is progressing?” If Murray is progressing, it’ll show up on in the win column, not just the stat sheet or anecdotal evidence. If we’re 6-9-1 at the end of the year, that’d be a 3.5 win improvement, which is more than double the win total from last year. That’s something measurable and meaningful enough to hang your hat on

How many 5 win teams can you say that about? My main point was that it seems silly to draw a hard line between 4 and 5 wins as there is almost zero difference between those two records.

As to you tying this year's record to last years I would say that the two schedules are not created equal. It is without a doubt possible for our record to be similar to last year's while actually being a better team. These things aren't nearly as black and white as you guys are making it out to be.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Tyler Lockett, Duane Brown, Jadaveon Clowney, KJ Wright, Bobby Wagner and Russ are the only top end players that I see on that roster.

Uh that’s a lot of “top end” players. Six. What do cards have for the first five games? Jones. Literally one “top end” player.

 

[HoodieBets]

So here is a question I thought of this morning. Say we still had rosen and he was having another bad year and Hurts plays like he has been and wins the heisman. Would you draft him #1 overall. He’s been more accurate and effective than Murray was at OU and he has used his legs better. He also has the more prototypical size. The thing is I don’t think anyone here would want to take him first overall so what is the difference? This is assuming we still have KK as the coach.


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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So here is a question I thought of this morning. Say we still had rosen and he was having another bad year and Hurts plays like he has been and wins the heisman. Would you draft him #1 overall. He’s been more accurate and effective than Murray was at OU and he has used his legs better. He also has the more prototypical size. The thing is I don’t think anyone here would want to take him first overall so what is the difference? This is assuming we still have KK as the coach.


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lol. Are you still arguing against drafting kyler? Newsflash: too late.